Determination: biggest mistake mythic ever done?

[piggeman]

Originally posted by Garbannoch Nox
instead of 2-3 classes per realm like it is now? not much difference to be honest

determination is the reason why non-det-classes are standing at DL for hours trying to get a group

solution:
- remove determination completely
- reduce max aoe mezz/root delve duration to ~30 secs (no drop-off at the edges). This would mean that an aoe mezz would stick for about 15 secs (considering 50% resists)
- remove ANY form of insta AOE CC
- keep single insta CC

You nailed it! Good suggestions!

 

[Cap'n Sissyfoo]

I have to say, the idea of no AE mez is quite interesting. It would make the life of a mezzer a bit harder but with Det removed then mezzers would have to select their targets with 1337 skillz0rs instead of just slapping an AE mezz on a huge group. AE mezz should just become a PvE only spell.

 

[censi]

All tanks have the same old RA's nowaday.

its amazing the difference in RA's

Like you have an RA that lets u do a Unique Style once every 30 mins for like 10 points for summin. Uber!

and then you have an RA like Det which totally pwns.

Pretty much all tanks are just IP purge Det aom mop and the usuall stuff.

Just reinforces what we already know. Mythic arnt to clued up on the balance of Classes.

Class ability, Realm abilitys, effects of resists, interupts, Rvr landscapes..

Theres many things in DAOC which have needed a radical overhaul for a long time now.

Determination is just one of them.

 

[samildanachh]

ye take away aoe mez and givf single target only.
would be quite fun singling out certain classes to me messed. add alot more skill to the game and also get rid of /assist.

 

[Fagane]

Remove determination or removed the 2e step (for only 2 rps!!!) and make it a 5% bonus instead of 15%.

If this removal means that area mess/root for PvP gets removed, I say GOOOOOD!

Fagane

 

[hotrat]

Against 'uber' groups (det.5, 55% resist), any cc is actually a joke... Taking a 72s mez, substract 75%, substract 55% and you get 8,1s and thats at the center...

Yer that sucks, my 72 sec mezz lasts 8 seconds, heck a 9 second slam lasts longer than that, soon we will have a shield arms take my spot in a group cus he can CC better than me.

Yeah great take the only useful RA Armsmen have thats a great idea, i can go back to being mezzed the entire fight then killed. woo hoo RVR will be so much fun.

Thats exactly how casters and hybrids have it now, except hibs who can use GP and therefore run with casters/hybrids more successfully (although usually they run with casters).

A 72 second mezz is clearly too long, a 8 second mezz is clearly too short. The highest level mezz in rvr should last about 15-20 seconds depending on your position in the radius, ON ALL TARGETS (tanks, hybrids, casters etc). And like I said before reduce the radius a little but if you do remove the ae drop off.

 

[old.Nightrider]

Originally posted by Puppetmistress
Some people say AoE mezz is the problem. While I agree to that to some extend, I think we also have to realize AoE mezz is needed for casters.

If you see how fast a caster goes down with a tank on him: He needs a reliable way of stopping them (for a while) to do SOMETHING, also because of the interrupts.

Originally posted by Belomar
All I can say is that those who do NOT agree that Determination is overpowered have never played a caster in real RvR.

Originally posted by Garbannoch Nox

solution:
- remove determination completely
- reduce max aoe mezz/root delve duration to ~30 secs (no drop-off at the edges). This would mean that an aoe mezz would stick for about 15 secs (considering 50% resists)
- remove ANY form of insta AOE CC
- keep single insta CC

or remove ae-mezz and give healers a style and 1.5 skillpoints pr lvl

 

[schinkaar]

8-10 secs is a decent mezz duration, ae root doesnt have dropoff so i think thats fine aswell. What sux is that so few classes have access to det, and the interrupt code for casters. They should just build it around a rock-paper-scissor scheme, atleast until they get decent programmers/designers.

 

[old.Nol]

give all classes access to determination and make spells interrupt attack swings.

 

[Driwen]

Originally posted by old.Nol
give all classes access to determination and make spells interrupt attack swings.

just out of curiousity, interupt is as long as your own swingspeed right? So if your hasted interupt would be shorter or have i got that completly wrong and how is the lenght of it then calculated?

 

[-Wedge-]

8-10 secs is a decent mezz duration, ae root doesnt have dropoff so i think thats fine aswell. What sux is that so few classes have access to det, and the interrupt code for casters. They should just build it around a rock-paper-scissor scheme, atleast until they get decent programmers/designers.

AE-root suffers from drop-off too...

And 8s mez is CENTER on a good group... 4s at the sides... Thats not enough...

Anyways, why not just make everyone able to cast while being attacked and remove ae-cc... That would be funny imho

Oh, drop the power of pbaoe then though... same damage as a dd...

Could be fun...

 

[vintervargen]

all casters should have a base chance of 30-50% to resist any spell casted on them.

maybe hybrids could have a 20-30% as well.

 

[old.Nol]

Originally posted by driwen
just out of curiousity, interupt is as long as your own swingspeed right? So if your hasted interupt would be shorter or have i got that completly wrong and how is the lenght of it then calculated?

Dunno, just thought it would be fun to watch tanks whinge again

 

[Driwen]

Originally posted by old.Nol
Dunno, just thought it would be fun to watch tanks whinge again

hehe i dont mind it much as my bow gets interupted anyway (it would prolly make hunters more powerful than they are now ). But it might solve the problem of having low quick being an advantage as when you are interupted, you are it for longer time (if my theory is true).

 

[-Nuked-]

not giving light elds love from the start is the problem, what else could it be!

 

[old.Ramas]

I vaguely remember being told the reason cc had to be so powerful was that without it tanks would rape casters 100% of the time.

Now tanks are immune to cc.

Casters get cc'd all the time (instantly at 1500 range in aoe fashion naturally).

So the only people who can now be cc'd are the people cc is supposed to protect from being overrun.

Fooking brilliant piece of game design that one.

Seriously, we should find out who set that up and give them a medal.

 

[old.Ramas]

Originally posted by old.Nol
give all classes access to determination and make spells interrupt attack swings.

I enjoy quoting Sanya in discussions on interrupts....

Orignally posted by Tweety
Whether or not Jason <the melee user> DOES interrupt <a caster> depends on level and luck. The chance of interruption isn’t very high.

HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHA

Originally part of the original comedy stylings of Ms Sanya Thomas
A quickcast spell does not have any chance of being interrupted – doesn’t check for that at all.

Please! Stop it! You're cracking me up.

Originally used to taunt casters by Sanya
As you can see, this system is more fair to all weapon users, and is more realistic (a big honking axe is actually just as distracting as a dagger when it’s swung at your head). But, in the interests of fun, we’ve kept the actual chance low, and the higher level the caster, the less likely the caster will lose concentration.

Funny how either a big honking axe *or* a little dagger is considered MUCH MORE DISTRACTING THEN JAMMING A FIREBALL UP YOUR MELEE OPPONENT'S JACKSIE!

 

[Driwen]

Originally posted by old.Ramas
Funny how either a big honking axe *or* a little dagger is considered MUCH MORE DISTRACTING THEN JAMMING A FIREBALL UP YOUR MELEE OPPONENT'S JACKSIE!

the thought process to swing an axe or a dagger is less than casting though (speaking in game). Allthough it might be nice if swinging your weapon would be slightly interupted by a spell as it would distract you.

Always found it weird that epic mobs can still hit when they are getting hit and making that animation of getting hit 100% of the time, off course this would make epic accounts way to easy, so it would be smart to leave it as it is.

 

[Gahldir]

Originally posted by Ensceptifica
No, but then that's got nothing to do with eachother. If you do fg-fg fights and there is no ae CC, there is still no zerg.

then it comes down to the facts of classes > all.

 

[Gahldir]

Originally posted by Ekydus
No Mezz/ Det = Better game = Needs more skill = RvR WILL change each trip = More fun

Stuns are fine, Mezz/ Det screws up DAoC royal.

totally disagree with you on the Mezz point.

 

[Gahldir]

well, my suggestion would be make mezz duration shorter, to like 70-80% what it is atm. and then det shouldn't effect mezz.

 

[old.Ramas]

Give everyone an effective 30% det for free (thereby reducing rvr mezz, but maintaining pve mezz), reduce tank det to 5% per level with current RA costs, or 10% and make it actually cost points. And make det multiplicative with resists, not additive as currently.

In effect you'll then have mez affecting tanks for about 30% of nominal duration, and casters about 40%. Therefore tanks still have the advantage against an ability designed to protect everyone from tanks , but everything is less insane.

Oh and make insta aoe mez pbaoe only.

Problem solved.

 

[Rollie]

Originally posted by old.Ramas


Oh and make insta aoe mez pbaoe only.

then healers/bards would need qc of some sort cause atm a sorc beats healers/bards for range/casting speed.

 

[samildanachh]

ehm i think u will find that a healer moving at speed 6 which will get the mes off well before the sorc.

 

[Eleasias]

what is the purpose of heavy tanks when det is removed? absolutely nothing. light tanks outdamage them, and hybrids are as good for guarding EXCEPT they get ranged dmg / chants / auras / whatever. im not surprised every caster wants det removed since everyone who played the game remembers what it was back then... caster easy mode, 3-4 shotting tanks, tanks being easy cannonfodder, heavy tanks mezzed for 1 min, then rooted for 1 min, while doing absolutely nothing etc. atleast casters and hybrids have SOME use when rooted, heavy tanks have none.

 

[Belomar]

Originally posted by samildanachh
ehm i think u will find that a healer moving at speed 6 which will get the mes off well before the sorc.

Yes, if they have a ranged insta. But the whole discussion you are addressing was what would happen if all insta CC was made PBAoE.

 

[Gordonax]

The problem at the root of all this is Mythic's method of attempting to balance classes. Suppose in the course of play, it proves that some power or other is overpowered - like aoe mezz, for example, which was turning RvR into a game of "who gets off mezz first wins" in every encounter.
Now to correct this, you can tweak the problem ability, for example reducing the range on aoe mezz, which attacks the problem at its source. The other option is to introduce a new counterbalancing ability, such as has happened with purge and determination.
The problem with Mythic is that, by and large, it has avoided tweaking the problem abilities, in favour of introducing new counterbalancing ones. But, of course, if you end up with a counterbalance that's overpowered - as is the case with det - you end up with an even bigger mess than before, and the problem is that it then requires a revamp of multiple skills to correct. This introduces the possibility of more imbalance when you eventually change things, as (in any game) the more you change the more chance you have of messing up some other aspect of the game.
Mythic has made some bad design decisions by its reluctance to tweak code, rather than introduce other counterbalancing code. I suspect it means that the codebase of DAoC is in something of a mess - but if you take the view that an MMORPG only lasts for a max of 4-5 years, that's usually not such a problem. Unfortunately, DAoC has only been going for, what, 2.5years? And already it's showing the kinds of signs of fraying at the edges that other, older MMORPGs have.
I really hope that Mythic grabs the bull by the horns and goes for a thorough review of the RvR combat system, because DAoC is fundamentally a really good game. And, with DAoC being Mythic's only source of revenue until Imperator ships (2004? 2005?), the company had better start looking at the underlying code, and stop applying "quick fix" patches to game play like det obviously was.

 

[Whisperess]

I would actually have to agree with the above poster.

I'm pretty sure the code is a real mezz ( haha, ha ha ) right now, which is further proven by Mythic not really knowing how some things work etc.

Mythic should have the balls to say: Ok, there won't be any updates except exploit-fixes until we're done with cleaning up the code.

However, that's not likely to happen, since they, after all, do get paid thanks to us sticking around since there's nothing better out there atm.

 

[Rollie]

Originally posted by samildanachh
ehm i think u will find that a healer moving at speed 6 which will get the mes off well before the sorc.

you think a healer running speed5+sprint will get a casted aoe mezz off before a sorc? i dont think so bolt range+faster casting speed, insta mezz is almost useless now since determination+resists make tanks almost immune to it.

 

[Carlos Bananos]

Originally posted by samildanachh
ehm i think u will find that a healer moving at speed 6 which will get the mes off well before the sorc.

only if the sorc is retarded