Defensive tanks: Which class?

[Belomar]

Let's discuss defensive tanks for a bit. I've been thinking of levelling one lately, and I need to figure out what to go for. Currently, I see three viable alternatives:

Paladin: Specced with 42 shield. Pros: Chants (endurance + AF), FH. Cons No determination, low weaponskill, low shield spec, dexterity does not rise with levelling.

Armsman: Specced 50 shield/50 weapon. Pros: High shield, determination, cheap IP, dexterity is 3rd raising stat, Soldier's Barricade, high weaponskill. Cons: No group utility (except for SB), gimped without end chant (or end pots).

Mercenary: Specced 50 shield/50 weapon. Pros: High shield, determination, cheap IP, dexterity is 2nd raising stat, Dirty Tricks, Evade I. Cons: Lower HP than armsmen, lower weaponskill(?) than armsmen, no group utility, gimped without end chant (or end pots).

Looking at this breakdown, it is clear that mercs and armsmen are superior to paladins in the specific role of guard duty due to determination and the potential to max shield without sacrificing something else. Furthermore, it appears that a s/s merc would make the best defensive tank because of having the highest dexterity at level 50 than armsmen. Also, Dirty Tricks is a defensive ability that works best in a guard role.

So, what's y'all's take on this? Do mercs make the best blockbots or not? And, if merc, is it worth going for a Saracen for the extra dex, or should you stick with Briton?

 

[leorin]

I d say there is no room if you intend to do perfect grp for any other def tank then paladin. But well if i would roll a defensive tank i would roll a 50 shield / 50 slash arms and get some mob and PF which is superior to snare enemy tanks.

 

[Teren]

Originally posted by Belomar
Let's discuss defensive tanks for a bit. I've been thinking of levelling one lately, and I need to figure out what to go for. Currently, I see three viable alternatives:

Paladin: Specced with 42 shield. Pros: Chants (endurance + AF), FH. Cons No determination, low weaponskill, low shield spec, dexterity does not rise with levelling.

Armsman: Specced 50 shield/50 weapon. Pros: High shield, determination, cheap IP, dexterity is 3rd raising stat, Soldier's Barricade, high weaponskill. Cons: No group utility (except for SB), gimped without end chant (or end pots).

Mercenary: Specced 50 shield/50 weapon. Pros: High shield, determination, cheap IP, dexterity is 2nd raising stat, Dirty Tricks, Evade I. Cons: Lower HP than armsmen, lower weaponskill(?) than armsmen, no group utility, gimped without end chant (or end pots).

Looking at this breakdown, it is clear that mercs and armsmen are superior to paladins in the specific role of guard duty due to determination and the potential to max shield without sacrificing something else. Furthermore, it appears that a s/s merc would make the best defensive tank because of having the highest dexterity at level 50 than armsmen. Also, Dirty Tricks is a defensive ability that works best in a guard role.

So, what's y'all's take on this? Do mercs make the best blockbots or not? And, if merc, is it worth going for a Saracen for the extra dex, or should you stick with Briton?

You forgot:

Reaver: Specced 50flex/42shield/36/41(/w 48 auto flex)sr. Pros: no stealther threat, dex second rising stat, uber lvl 50 back pos. flex style, nice sr spells, evade 1 Cons: Lower HP than armsmen, lower weaponskill(?) than armsmen, no det, no grp utility, gimped without end chant (or end pots).

 

[Tualatin]

in a balanced alb grp you have no use of defensive tanks, other then pala. You also need dmg-output, otherwise u can live longer, but die anyway do to lack of the dmg.

If you want a defensive tank, take a pala with shield and high chants (42+).

 

[K0nah]

purely as a guardbot id say its gotta be saracen arms or merc altho might be worth looking at inconnu too. u did forget another negative about shield merc: currently we dont get access to moblocking ;/

dirt vs sob? sob id say, u dont have to be hitting them for it to work and itll work everytime. altho it doesnt negate dmg _totally_ as dirt can... sometimes.

as another poster said tho, unless its a mage grp there really isnt room to 'replace' a pally with someone better in the role cos the grp needs end chant. u can use the pally upfront and have the def arms/merc stay back tho ofc

as far as pallies go saracen +15dex @ roll: 50shield 39wep 42chant rest parry (both chants and slash auto so u can dump the extras into parry). course he has no determination which will limit his effectiveness in the job somewhat...

 

[Belomar]

Well, it is certainly true that there might simply not be a spot for a defensive tank other than a paladin in an "optimal" Albion group since you really need all the damage dealers you can get. I guess this means that in Albion groups, the support is pretty much on its own (like for Mids except with not so much self-defense as healers and shamans have). For Hibs, on the other hand, you can usually afford to have a guardbot, even in a melee group.

One problem I foresee with a paladin as a defensive tank is that the range of the end chant is limited and the offensive tanks might need the paladin to assist them in order to get benefit from it. Where does that leave the support? Defenseless once again.

Originally posted by The Archer
Reaver: Specced 50flex/42shield/36/41(/w 48 auto flex)sr. Pros: no stealther threat, dex second rising stat, uber lvl 50 back pos. flex style, nice sr spells, evade 1 Cons: Lower HP than armsmen, lower weaponskill(?) than armsmen, no det, no grp utility, gimped without end chant (or end pots).

Hmm, good point. Though I think reavers do best as offensive tanks, at least from what I've seen of them in RvR.

Originally posted by K0nah
u did forget another negative about shield merc: currently we dont get access to moblocking ;/

Ahh, good point, didn't think of this.

Anyway, maybe I should scratch this idea and think of something else... I want a char that is a little different from "just" hitting /assist. Back to the drawing board!

 

[Rulke-RM]

Surely dirty tricks is a powerful defence tool though?
while guarding your support you can whack attackers with DT and kill their damage output for 10-30(?) seconds.

Annoying thing is though, alb groups only have group for 1 defensive tank and because end chant is essential that limits it to pally

 

[gunner440]

lol at ppl saying that only palas are able to be guardbots :x

 

[old.Ramas]

I'd have thought an arms/merc is always better than a paladin *so long as you already have a paladin in the group*. Paladin superior in the case where there is no paladin in the group yet.

 

[old.Ramas]

Re: Re: Defensive tanks: Which class?

Originally posted by The Archer
You forgot:

Reaver: Specced 50flex/42shield/36/41(/w 48 auto flex)sr. Pros: no stealther threat, dex second rising stat, uber lvl 50 back pos. flex style, nice sr spells, evade 1 Cons: Lower HP than armsmen, lower weaponskill(?) than armsmen, no det, no grp utility, gimped without end chant (or end pots).

I would suggest that pbaoe dps debuffs/and or absorb debuffs count as group utility, but that's just me.

 

[Thamiles]

Could make the pally with 50 shield and 48(last af) chants tho.
Problem is the savages will chew right thru the defence anyways.
Sidestunning guard while 2 others are killing caster or cleric.

About race, it shouldnt matter much if you got a buffbot. Id take highlander for the xtra con.


Ps gunner, the post was about best possible defence.

 

[Kagato.]

You'd have to be a fairly reasonable realm rank though as an Armsman before you could afford SB, assuming you want to get Detirmination, IP and other base essentials first.

The merc idea sounds interesting, and possibly the best choice for the simple Guarding process, but personally i'd be tempted more for a Saracen Armsman if I was going down that road.

However if your looking in terms of group protection on casters and clerics which is what your obviously designed for then the chances are you'll be heavily buffed anyway so an extra 10 or so base dex wont make a huge amount of differance really.

 

[soylent green]

A high shield+ SR reaver could use his dps debuff too, that will lower the damage done to casters and the clerics.Reavers also get dex has a secondry stat, they get mob too. No det tho

 

[Belomar]

Originally posted by Kagato.
You'd have to be a fairly reasonable realm rank though as an Armsman before you could afford SB, assuming you want to get Detirmination, IP and other base essentials first.

To be honest, I would not group IP with one of the "base essentials" for a grouping tank. Yes, you want it eventually, but things like determination 3/4, PF, purge, and, eventually, SB, should probably be taken first.

 

[Kagato.]

Originally posted by Belomar
To be honest, I would not group IP with one of the "base essentials" for a grouping tank. Yes, you want it eventually, but things like determination 3/4, PF, purge, and, eventually, SB, should probably be taken first.

With Detirmination 4 or 5 I would not consider Purge to be an essential either to be honest, I don't have nor ever plan to get purge, as with Det 4 CC is merely a short annoyance.

And prevent flight is nice but better of being left to the Merc's, slower swinging tanks don't get the same use out of it.

I'd certainly place IP before PF on an armsman.

 

[Belomar]

Originally posted by Kagato.
With Detirmination 4 or 5 I would not consider Purge to be an essential either to be honest, I don't have nor ever plan to get purge, as with Det 4 CC is merely a short annoyance.

Yes, but melee stuns are unaffected by determination -- save purge for that.

And prevent flight is nice but better of being left to the Merc's, slower swinging tanks don't get the same use out of it.

But maybe it is useful for S/S armsmen/mercs who need to snare people attacking their protectee.

 

[iluvatur]

imo reaver is best defender, you get to kick their ass as you'll always be able to levi them.

 

[old.Ramas]

Originally posted by Belomar
To be honest, I would not group IP with one of the "base essentials" for a grouping tank. Yes, you want it eventually, but things like determination 3/4, PF, purge, and, eventually, SB, should probably be taken first.

You're going to take IP for levelling with before any of the others come in, since cc is not a significant issue when camping in avalon city.

And I imagine most tanks find the idea of respeccing out of a heal better than anything a 50 rejuv cleric can get (ffs) somewhat hard to swallow .

 

[K0nah]

ip really isnt that useful to a tank in a guild grp with decent clerics, yes its useful sometimes, but its very rare.

if your an 'lfg'er at apk then yes IP is essential cos prolly u will only have 1cleric and his/her abilities will be unknown/random.

99% of times i use purge for melee stuns (slam or annihilation) the other 1% is removing rez sickness after a combat rez or on rare occaisions root/mezz when i simply have to be free and NOW. also handy for chanter heat debuff uke:

its a steal @ 4points

 

[Ekydus]

Endurance Chant > Dirty Tricks.

 

[Staan]

it is maybe just me but imo there's way too many paladin in alb (every server), actully the population of tanks is roughly 50% paladin rest is armsman and a few merc

ofc paladin in a alb group is essential but just one .. don't need 2 or 3, in pve and in rvr. But imo they shouldn't have gave the paladin End Regen, but to another class like mincer (but well .. that would have given a bard sorta) or a buff like the shaman to the clerc.

thats just my opinion, but you gotta admit, there's way too many pally



and yea best defensive guardbot in alb is paladin with at least with mob2. thats what they meant for anyway ? they are support class, their chants aid the group and they got to guard casters/healers while the offensive tanks rush in with /assist?






huuh i'll skip the part about the 2handed paladin mkay.

 

[bob007]

Originally posted by Staan

ofc paladin in a alb group is essential but just one .. don't need 2 or 3, in pve and in rvr. But imo they shouldn't have gave the paladin End Regen, but to another class like mincer (but well .. that would have given a bard sorta) or a buff like the shaman to the clerc.

2 paladins Kinda rock in PvE. Tank mez and heal chant while other runs end and beats down main mob.

As secondry healers got end regen in hib and mid. I would of give it to friars, But i supose it makes little difference. Both are not det hybrids, And this is Dark age of tankalot.

 

[kin]

Dex + shield spec help yourself block, but do anyone know relation when it comes to guard ?

I have noticed you can use brutalize after you guard for another,
which makes it a nice style.

 

[skile]

An important factor: Mercs do not have Mastery of Blocking which arms have.

 

[Ialkarn]

Originally posted by Ekydus
Endurance Chant > Dirty Tricks.

you forgot to mention FH

 

[ScarletPinp]

Originally posted by Ialkarn
you forgot to mention FH

well FH is an RA so doesnt really count in that comparison imo

det > fh

 

[parlain]

Originally posted by Belomar
Let's discuss defensive tanks for a bit. I've been thinking of levelling one lately, and I need to figure out what to go for. Currently, I see three viable alternatives:

Paladin: Specced with 42 shield. Pros: Chants (endurance + AF), FH. Cons No determination, low weaponskill, low shield spec, dexterity does not rise with levelling.

Armsman: Specced 50 shield/50 weapon. Pros: High shield, determination, cheap IP, dexterity is 3rd raising stat, Soldier's Barricade, high weaponskill. Cons: No group utility (except for SB), gimped without end chant (or end pots).

Mercenary: Specced 50 shield/50 weapon. Pros: High shield, determination, cheap IP, dexterity is 2nd raising stat, Dirty Tricks, Evade I. Cons: Lower HP than armsmen, lower weaponskill(?) than armsmen, no group utility, gimped without end chant (or end pots).

Looking at this breakdown, it is clear that mercs and armsmen are superior to paladins in the specific role of guard duty due to determination and the potential to max shield without sacrificing something else. Furthermore, it appears that a s/s merc would make the best defensive tank because of having the highest dexterity at level 50 than armsmen. Also, Dirty Tricks is a defensive ability that works best in a guard role.

So, what's y'all's take on this? Do mercs make the best blockbots or not? And, if merc, is it worth going for a Saracen for the extra dex, or should you stick with Briton?

For me you are looking at it slightly in the wrong way for DaoTankalot

It's a question of would you rather have:

50 weapon 50 DW/Pole/2hand Arms Merc and a s/s paladin

OR

xx weapon xx 2h xx chants Paladin and a s/s Arms/Merc;

Place your bets now

 

[iluvatur]

omg .. 2hand paladin so ubah... nicley put parlain!