Debate : Have Realm Abilities and Instas helped ot hindered RvR

[Danya]

Originally posted by old.Teador
So it kinda puts pressure on those solo stealthers who could always kill about anyone, a good thing, IMO

No it doesn't. The kill anyone stealthers are assassins, minstrels were never really tank killers (not even con anyway). Sure a minstrel can take out a lot of casters/archers if they run around in small groups, but then that's how the class was designed. As for putting pressure on solo stealthers, not really, still hordes of assassins roaming around.

 

[danskmacabre]

I haven't had a lot of experience with RvR.
But based on the experience I've had, it could be really fun if it weren't for the generally negative Experiences I've had with Mezzing..

I remember trudging across long distances in Midgard and finally getting to a destination with 40+ other albs..
Then BANG...20 of us are mezzed and 5 seconds later I'm dead.


Same thing in when fighting some Hibs...a bit of fighting back and forth, then suddenly ½ of us are mezzed and I'm standing there being chopped down by some hibs and there's nothing I can do.

I'd say my general feelings towards RvR is that it can be a LOT of fun, and has been, but as soon as mezzers turn up it just seems not fun anymore.
It goes from Tanks running back and forth and healers running about trying to rezz and heal ppl and Scouts etc shooting away and combat spells going off with lots of cool effects.
To ranks of people standing like statues with ZZZZ's over their heads being hacked down helplessly.

I don't know what classes are great with mezzes or whether insta mezzes are the main problem.
But whatever the case, I don't really like it, as I feel it detracts from the enjoyment of the game and reduces the advantage of using creativity or tactics in the game.
If I had the power to decide, I'd either completely remove mezzing from the game or at least remove insta mezz.
Or try to do something to make Mezzing not worth using much in RvR.
Does this sound extreme?
Probably, but since this game is about fun. and IMHO, mezzing just isn't fun.

After saying that, I hardly ever play RvR now.
And I enjoy PvE atm.
Although I may try out RvR when my Cleric reaches 50th level and hopefully has a better chance of resisting the dreaded Mezz.

 

[shani]

Originally posted by old.Blood|Prydwen
zerging is the result of 1 thing, and 1 thing alone.. AE spells

imo they should remove all AE spells from the game

Well blood, explain why you think this is the case ? IMO AoE has nothing to do with the zerg....

RA's btw ain't bad. They do balance the game more, and gives RvR some more meaning and use

 

[Roo Stercogburn]

SM-specific realm abilities are apallingly bad and show that it wasn't thought through.
I mean really: all the SM realm abilities are only any use in PvE and these you gain from RvR? DUH!
I've already said elsewhere about SMs in detail so won't bore people again.

I disagree with changing the nature of the game from gaining skills through levelling to gaining skills through killing other players: this isn't the game I bought in Februrary. A better approach would be to allow the cherry picking of certain skills as you level up.

Since RA were partly introduced to give something new to lvl50s, I'd rather have seen the level cap raised to something like 55 with the amount of xp required for those levels reduced accordingly so you could attain them much like levelling previously or given you the option to get special skills as you level.

I'd have chosen one of 2 ways to get special abilities:

1) Get special skills say every 5 or 10 levels you level up in the game

or

2) Set costs for the realm abilities and you have the options to spend skill points on them rather then speccing.

Both of these methods would create much more varied character templates than there are now. You could choose a lot of special skills but be weaker in your char class with class specific spells and abilities.

RvR is now not particularly viable below lvl45 (lets face it - if you do go out to RvR and you don't have high level buddies with you, you know you are in for a kicking) so a bunch of skills that are good PvE aren't really going to help you a lot so if you insist on giving a class PvE abilities at least give them to them when they are levelling up, not in the end game where they are useless. I say in the end game because you are not likely to get enough rp until you are quite high level in the first place.


A note on game balancing:

DAoC and other games spend months in beta before the initial release yet they only seem to spend a few weeks in test for updates and patches which can have profound effects on gameplay. With reduced amount of testing I'm actually never surprised that on a whim character classes get screwed over all the time and wildly imbalanced things like RA turn up. I'm unlikely to be on much with my SM til 1.52 and many of the slaps we got are fixed again. Many simply stop playing because of this kind of thing.

 

[svartalf]

RA are no worse than stuns, both should be removed from game. Mezz should be reduced in DURATION, rather than range. Anyway, I don't wanna moan anymore, I do that plenty in-game.

Whinging on these boards is not read by Mythic, VNBoards is the place to go to get things done.. . . . ... developers round table .. let's see if you can get a message to stay on page one for over 30 minutes, I'll wager you can't.

 

[Uriron]

My euro's worth..

RA's are a reward for playing well in RvR (or finding a good group).

The reward should be boosts to stats or help regaining endurance / power (modest increase say 5 / 10 % quicker not an instant 50% boost) etc fair enough. gaining instant spells or such like or instant HP boosts is not a fair reward especially to those classes that cant have them.

As far as I'm concerned mezz sucks big time and ruins RvR for me, nearsight sucks and turns my caster into a buff bott cause i cant get anywhere near the enemy to cast at them and AoE is a bit unfair as well. Lets start giving tanks AoE bastard sword swings and see how all the casters start complaining, thank god tanks can only attack one at a time. Tho i am gagging for my GTAoE

My BG strategy last night bolt an enemy for attention and run around in a circle whilst they give chase so my group can all nuke him at their leisure, not very realistic is it?

The more I play DAoC the more it seems like a monty python film

 

[Whoodoo_RD]

Im too in the "RA's blow goats" section, as they are now anyway.

Thinking of this from a n00b / low level point of view, anyone buying the game now will suffer majro style against someone with RR8, even if and when they reach 50 (or whatever the cap will be down the line).

Someone level 50 RR0 against someone RR8, will be kinda equal to grey ganking, except the RPs will be a lot better.

For example, sitting alone in a keep one day, watching for the enemy, my 47 Thane (R2L9) was sliced in two by a certain Infil. Two hits and I was dead. OK, i put this down to 3 levels and more RA's in his favour.

Two minutes later, I watch a level 50 warrior with RR4 get ganked in the same fashion. Two hits and hes a gonna!

The person in question I know has around the 1.5 mil RPs, farms daily, and agreed has pplayed the game to its fullest (/salutes), however, only once have i ever seen him take a severe beating, during a major brawl inside a keep, where he had little chance of staying stealthed amid the AE being thrown around.

While I tip my hat too him, aint Mythic kinda putting ppl off buying a game they stand little or no chance of gaining any more than level 50.

To quote others, Mythic got it wrong to start with, the recent nerf and buff fest they have been having aint improving it either, nor will RA's.

/IMO - no flame required

 

[old.LandShark]

As a stealth minstrel, RAs have done nothing for me except negatives. I can't kill a few classes that i used to be able to kill, and I can't kill any that i couldn't before. Woop.
*shrug*

 

[danskmacabre]

Regarding RA's, Well, I quite like them.
I have managed to gain around 1000 RP's and put them into Serenity.
It has helped my Cleric in a relatively balanced and useful way.
I haven't really looked into the "Broader effects" of some of the other RP's tho.

 

[Lanceloc]

IMHO this game will be predictable and repetitive until they bring in proper collision detection. CD = Tactics. No-CD = Paper/Scissors/Stone.

I know it's a bugger to code but it just seems its the only thing that will enforce REAL tactical warfare.

By real tactical warfare I am referring to:-

a) formations (arrowhead, random mob, wall of shields etc)
b) protection of leadership and the physically weak (a wall of fighters)
c) flank and rear assaults (to weaken the enemy in order to gain tactical advantage)
d) reserve forces (to grab victory from the jaws of defeat etc)
e) cavalry (private horses coming soon Mythic says!)

There you go. Pretty obvious I thought.

 

[Danya]

Originally posted by shani
RA's btw ain't bad. They do balance the game more, and gives RvR some more meaning and use

Bahahahahaha
Balance the game?! ROFL, have you ever even seen a hib/mid in RvR let alone fought one?

I think active RAs are utter crap, the passives are fine, they give you an edge but the actives are completely unbalanced and just silly.

 

[Whoodoo_RD]

Originally posted by Dannyn

Bahahahahaha
Balance the game?! ROFL, have you ever even seen a hib/mid in RvR let alone fought one?

I think active RAs are utter crap, the passives are fine, they give you an edge but the actives are completely unbalanced and just silly.

applaudes loudly

How can it ballance, imagine in PvP, 1 hunter faces another, one has RR4, and longer range, mutiple arrow fire, aug qck and dex, aug str, and is standing 1.5 the distance of his normal longest range. The other has the same armour, bow and arrows, is RR0 and no RA's accordingly. RR4 hunter fires, RR0 throws a large haddock (insert any object here, as none will reach the other dude) and gets hit nicely for multiple crit shots while running forward to get in range with his bow...guess what happens next?

Answers on a postcard to Shani c/o Midgard Mental Unit, Jordheim

 

[shani]

Originally posted by Whoodoo_RD



applaudes loudly

How can it ballance, imagine in PvP, 1 hunter faces another, one has RR4, and longer range, mutiple arrow fire, aug qck and dex, aug str, and is standing 1.5 the distance of his normal longest range. The other has the same armour, bow and arrows, is RR0 and no RA's accordingly. RR4 hunter fires, RR0 throws a large haddock (insert any object here, as none will reach the other dude) and gets hit nicely for multiple crit shots while running forward to get in range with his bow...guess what happens next?

Answers on a postcard to Shani c/o Midgard Mental Unit, Jordheim

Offcourse someone with RR4 is gonna win from a RR0... But If I believe you the RR from someone shouldn't make a difference. Well start whining again... RA'S earned bij RR'S are somewhat like lvl's and I dont hear you scream
HELP MY LVL 45 CAN'T KILL A LVL 50...



RA'S can help you if you choose em good. What do I care someone has an active RA he can use once every 30 minutes ? Let him use it... The next player that comes around is lucky then and gets an easy kill...

And sorry I don't like postcards, and that hospital you mention has a bunch of Dr. frankensteins running around...uke:

 

[shani]

Originally posted by Dannyn

Bahahahahaha
Balance the game?! ROFL, have you ever even seen a hib/mid in RvR let alone fought one?

Damn you figured it out... You get RR2 as a present when you play the game for 1 week

And you retired ? Why feeling gimped ? Not Über anymore ? Can't solo anything you like anymore ? Or just tired of the game ?

Sorry if I aint up to SoTL standards

 

[old.Aethelstan]

Originally posted by Roo Stercogburn
Since RA were partly introduced to give something new to lvl50s, I'd rather have seen the level cap raised to something like 55 with the amount of xp required for those levels reduced accordingly so you could attain them much like levelling previously or given you the option to get special skills as you level.

Please no. Save us from more levelling <cries>.

RAs give an advantage in the frontier to those who kill more people in the frontier. There's a basic logic to that in the same way that levels give an advantage to people who kill more mobs in PvE. I'd agree that some active ones like IP and purge are overpowered. But then some basic skills are overpowered, like the aoe damage spells and mezz. Mythic have gone for the two wrongs trying to make a right approach, when they'd have been better off nerfing some of those original abilities in RvR. It probably affects different classes differently. Those who fight a lot solo probably see big changes due to RAs. Those who fight mostly in groups or zergs probably find RAs more or less irrelevant (4 firbolgs beating on a troll, the troll still goes down quickly even if its life pops back to full after 2 seconds).

Some good suggestions here on this thread though - remove aoe damage spells so casters have to pick a target like everyone else, and introduce collision detection so tanks can't just charge through each other to get to those lovely cloth-cast weaklings. I know of some multiplayer games with collision detection, so it's possible. But maybe it only works with limited numbers (I know nothing about programming!).

 

[Psy|:m00:]

I'd have to agree with Lanceloc, Collision detection between realms would help a helluvalot.

edit: not really that much else to say, other than that really

 

[-Wedge-]

Well, there are two spells that should be removed, and be removed asap...

Ranged Instant AE-Stun and Ranged Instant AE-Mezz... How on earth can you justify instant AE-CC to a class (any class)...

What should be looked at, interrupts for casters, I cant even think of winning 1-on-1 against any class with any type of ranged instant... Even if I resist the instant, I still get interrupted and I get a 3 second cast delay...

Heck, due to these interrupts+delays, I cant win a cast battle against a (smart) thane... Not without MoC...

And 1 spell, Nearsight, should either be given to a more common class... Or should be removed from common classes in Hib & Mid... Runemasters & Eldrichs with Nearsight, talk about overpowering...

Ohwell, I like playing my Wizard, eventhough I'm the underdog in wizardry...

As for RA's, oohwell... Solve these problems first, then lets talk... (not even beginning about the bolt-bugs issue)

 

[Turamber]

I don't see how any of the "active" realm abilities are overpowered. They're on a timer - the best ones on a huge 30 minute timer! Sure they maybe a 'Get out of jail free' card, but only once in that 30 minutes.

My Faith Heal is a brilliant ability to have -- but no way is it overpowered. Once every 30 minutes is spot on I feel.

As for Purge ... how is that overpowered? Has anyone actually been daft enough to buy it? In a game that allows for chain stunning/mezzing a single purge in 30 minutes is about as good as going into RvR wielding a large fish. Waste of precious realm skill points.

It's very unlikely that there will ever be that many people who are RR8, 9 or 10. People are getting bored of the game now who have just reached RR4! It is completely correct that those who continue to play the game should be rewarded for sticking with it ... that you may run into one of those demi-gods of RvR with your rookie RR2 level 50 is just tough. Release, come back and look for easier prey...

No biggie.

 

[old.Thiralith]

would personally choose to not have RA's in this game

 

[hellraisermk2]

On the whole being a tank I like the new RR's.

Anyone who says purge is overpowered must be high on drugs (or a mez master). I agree, not all the classes that have purge should recieve it. Pure tanks on the other hand should definately get it. It is on a 30 minute timer. That means once every 30 minutes us pure tanks (in mid, warriors and zerks) can actually do something rather than stand there and wait for the nukes to come our way.

ANYONE who says purge isn't neccessary for a pure tank has obviously never EVER levelled a tank up to viable RvR level. What good is high HP's and damage when you can't get near to the enemy to use it. Purge gives us that chance. I don't think it should have been an RA though. I believe pure tanks should have been given purge in their spec line.

I actually look forwards to the time when I get mezzed whilst I still have purge. It's so very satisfying to use it and take down the bugger who was about to knock you down before you could get even one hit in. It's only once of every 30 minutes, but damn is it good when you know you have it stored and ready for use.

 

[Blood]

i spent months on getting my "optimal" armor & equipment.. and then they go and give epic armor to everyone for an evenings worth of running around :/

 

[gervase]

Mezz is the only was a caster can keep armsman etc away from themselves in a battle situation.

Without it - the tabnks are straight through to them and the result is not very happy wizards.

As Lanceloc says - and was raised in the US boards as well, the key would be collision detection.

Only then might there be a move from the mezzed charges.

 

[Danya]

Originally posted by old.Blood|Prydwen
i spent months on getting my "optimal" armor & equipment.. and then they go and give epic armor to everyone for an evenings worth of running around :/

Yup, that was pretty sucky too. Also they basically made armour crafters useless.
For the record, I don't think purge is over powered (group purge on the other hand... ) There's plenty of overpowered RAs though. IP is the major one, especially giving it to stealthers. M class specific RA, sos, is pretty overpowered. TBH I'd rather they took all RAs out even though I loose SoS, than keep them in.

And you retired ? Why feeling gimped ? Not Über anymore ? Can't solo anything you like anymore ? Or just tired of the game

Yes, a little, no, I never could, yes.
As for RR2, you virtually do get that as a present, it's like a couple of hours in emain...

 

[danskmacabre]

Originally posted by gervase
Mezz is the only was a caster can keep armsman etc away from themselves in a battle situation.

Without it - the tabnks are straight through to them and the result is not very happy wizards.

As Lanceloc says - and was raised in the US boards as well, the key would be collision detection.

Only then might there be a move from the mezzed charges.

While I agree Collision detection would improve the game immensely, Removal or reduction of Mezzing does not have to make life impossible for casters.
PPL in RvR would just have to cooporate more.
For example in PvE, if a caster is being attacked or if tanks see an enemy going towards a caster, the tanks charge inagainst eh enemy.
It'd be similar tactics that should be used in RvR.
If the tanks sees a char from an enemy realm going for casters, then there ought to be some tanks there to defend them.

Simple, and realistic as well.

 

[Flimgoblin]

mezz isn't a way to get a tank away from a caster...
that's root

single target

aoe mezz is a way for one caster to take out 5 tanks...

aoe instant mezz is a way for one healer to wipe out an entire force. then have his pals chop them up one by one (doesn't always work that way I know)

aoe damage spells aren't a huge problem, they're low damage so easily curable

crowd control is the problem - but remove that and what do the sorcerors/healers/bards do? (not to mention the mincers, spiritmasters or mentalists)

 

[danskmacabre]

Originally posted by Fingoniel
crowd control is the problem - but remove that and what do the sorcerors/healers/bards do? (not to mention the mincers, spiritmasters or mentalists)

I can understand where you're coming from here, as certain classes have been designed and built upon with certain weaknesses in mind.
And of course something as drastic as removing Mezz would have to be thought out and tested a lot.
But at the end of the day, the majority of people believe that Instant AOE mezzes are a problem and reduce the fun of RvR.
Maybe there is another solution , like the RA road they have taken. Possibly making resisiting Mezz easier or something and/or reducing the duration.