David cocking Blunkett

[leggy]

My story:

I spent 5 years doing a masters degree in Electronic and Electrical Engineering at a respectable University. I got a 2:1. I then went onto work for a small startup company in Dundee doing research for technology they had developed. After 3 years I was made redundant after the company made some bad decisions regarding funding sources. I am now unemployed and recieving benefit.

And in all honesty I fucking hate trisha.

 

[throdgrain]

Theres nothing wrong with the welfare state, its a great thing - I think thats where this conversation started- the point is that its there as a safety net. For when something goes wrong. It was me that banged on at you to go sign on if you remember leggy, you must do that cos they pay your national insurance things, and also because its your right.
My other point was that there are people who make there lifes work out of abusing the postion, and ruin it for everyone else :/
Bodhi, sometimes your funny, but sometimes you just come over as prat ...

 

[Gurnox]

And what annoys me is people who listen to the media spin on things without reading the facts.

If anything, the spin has been trying to dig the silly sod out of the hole he's dug for himself.

In Prince Charles, you have someone who enjoys privilege the likes of which we wouldn't even understand, let alone dream of. He has never had to, in his entire life, exceed his capabilities, technical or otherwise in any way shape or form. The guy is a good few steps away from what 95% of people would consider a normal life.

So for him to imply that people should not attempt things that they are not technically capable of sticks in the craw a bit. For example, I have not always known how to code. Should I not have attempted it because it was not something I was technically capable of doing? Or put the effort in and learn it?

The memo is, admittedly, open to interpretation. And it wouldn't surprise me if it had been leaked in the full knowledge of the controversy it would cause. But, frankly, I found his sentiments to be, at best, mis-informed. Especially as the figurehead of The Princes' Trust.

Slightly off topic: Has anyone read 'The Queen and I' by Sue Townsend? Quality book that has the royal family signing on and living in a Leicester sink estate. Prince Charles is portayed as a tracksuit wearing, ponytailed wide-boy. Classic stuff.

The welfare state.... We've all used it at one time or another, be it signing on or using the NHS. Yes, it gets abused by a minority but I honestly don't think our society would be anywhere near what we have at the moment without it. It's certainly helped myself and my family out no end in the past. A few people abuse it, who cares? Maybe Blair should fight a few less wars and pump some more money into it so there's enough to go around.....

 

[Vae]

So for him to imply that people should not attempt things that they are not technically capable of sticks in the craw a bit. For example, I have not always known how to code. Should I not have attempted it because it was not something I was technically capable of doing? Or put the effort in and learn it?

I would say that this is precisely what he was addressing in his memo. You can't expect a job as a coder to just appear as an entitlement. You have to actually put the effort in and learn it. His comments were saying that the school system today is leading pupils to believe that regardless of how little work they've put in (and thus how bad their grades are) they are entitled to a decent job.

He says that this is because the school system can't admit failure. I think there is an element of truth to this as well. Look at the percentage pass rates required to 'pass' i.e. get an F. I recall recently reading that in some cases at GCSE that they are as low as about 20% so someone who gets 20% doesn't fail the exam - they get an F instead...

Now whether you agree that there is this failing in the school system or not is a seperate question, but for the press (I'll use press rather than media as Tom made a good point earlier about distinguishing between the two) to be claiming that he's saying everyone should stay in their place and shouldn't have ambition is just false.

 

[GekuL]

Charles hasn't worked to get where he is, so he's in no position for anyone to take his opinion seriously, especially on this subject. The fact that he is where he is through inheritence is made all the more ridiculous by the fact that there is a large chance our real monarchy are in Australia (and voted for a republic )

 

[Gengi]

A chance to influence Mr Blunkett ?

Robbed from the Inquirer, and possibly back on topic .

Michael Howard, has, at least always been a facist, and a vote for him and his party would be made knowing that, however to vote for 'New Labour' and find that their policies are as right wing if not more so, is kind of galling for those of you who did.
I was a student in the days of Maggie, I got a grant, free education, housing benefit in the summer break, my parents bought their council house, the power of the unions to bring the country to it's knees every other Wednesday was broken, and I don't remeber much in the way of 3-day weeks, brownouts, and other things I associated with the labour Governments of the mid 1970's. (when I was at school)
I even agreed with the Poll Tax, though I may be in a minority of one on that account.
I don't like Michael Howard, I don't like Tony Blair even more, and what is possibly worse, I feel let down by a 'Labour' Government that is more Tory than the Tories are.

Later

 

[oblimov]

Big G: To say that you cant follow up jobs whilst working somewhere else is a peice of shit lol how do the rest of us manage?!? in that way of thinking your in a job for life then till u get sacked/leave then you find another? wake up ffs

Bodhi: Enjoy taking my tax, you show the attitude that i know exists in this country and it makes me sad , i know plenty of people who graduated and felt ashamed sitting on the dole coz they couldnt find an initial job in their subject field

 

[maxi]

Oblimov you're pretty selective on what arguments you address. You don't seem at all willing to see it another way.

let's all hope and pray Blunkett somehow has to resign over this fast-tracking visa of my former lovers nanny thing. I mean, it doesnt look likely, but maybe...just maybe.

Can I say that rightfully people should not be held accountable too much as Adults for what they did as children. where you draw the line between kid and adult is up to you, but to suggest that Adults who messed up their school lives(list legitimate and false excuses here) should not expect to get more from life is a bit harsh. It doesn't add up.

Have you ever had to take a job at the supermarket or in a factory oblimov? being a posistion you feel you're above(problems there, but lets not go there) can lead to depression (the medical kind) at the very leasy it'll get you down after a while, you reel off potential solutions like it's all that simple, which suggests you've never been there.

lazy people are a product of our society, so removing welfare won't help at all. that's dealing with a problem after it's occured. what about dealing with it before it occurs?

 

[Tom]

Oblimov, perhaps you should be working for The Daily Mail.

Honestly, I think if ID cards are implemented, I shall refuse to have one. I do not think any government has the right to demand of its citizens immediate identification. I think the 'illegal immigrants using the NHS' line is basically bullshit, they are using excuses like this to hide the fact that they're too afraid to ask the public to pay the amounts of tax required for a world class health system.

Perhaps if the government spent as much money on treating drug and alcohol abuse as they propose to spend on future legislation, they might find that the savings would outweigh the benefits of what they propose.

 

[oblimov]

ill listen to all arguements that make sense

but so far the picture im getting is of people not willing to work in crud for a while till they find their ideal or close to ideal job

and i have worked in some pretty poor places trust me, ive done factory work and ive also worked in a supermarket as well as doign cack data entry for nearly 3 years every week nite while still attending uni

this year my contract wasnt renewed and for over a month i worked on a helpdesk role getting paid minimum wage whilst looking for work elsewhere

Fair enough depression is something that can happen if your in somewhere you dont like, but to be honest thats life. Everyone has to work in places where at times they dont enjoy it, but the whole point is you just get on with it coz thats the way it is.

If everyone only looked for jobs which they felt where equal to their talents and kept them interested and not depressed then no one would work

It has to be realised that the welfare state is crippling this country both through the way it acts as a pit for taxpayers money and also the way it installs bad attitudes in the people on it.

Im not actually for a total abolishment of the system as clearly the vunerable should be looked after however a line should be drawn between the vunerable and the lazy

 

[Turamber]

The problem with our country used to be that the people who knew how to run it were all hairdressers and taxi drivers ... Now they're forumites

 

[maxi]

Oblimov you lack all critical thinking skills.

 

[Dweller]

Honestly, I think if ID cards are implemented, I shall refuse to have one.

Apparently, there's going to be a 2500 pound fine for resfusing to get one.

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=19970

 

[Lazarus]

(O.K 6 in my case,

did they make you repeat a few years Bod's ?

 

[Gurnox]

Michael Howard, has, at least always been a facist, and a vote for him and his party would be made knowing that, however to vote for 'New Labour' and find that their policies are as right wing if not more so, is kind of galling for those of you who did.

Can't argue with that. At least Howard as not ever pretended to be left-of-centre. The worst thing labour let Blair do was abolish Clause 4. It ripped the heart and soul out of the party. OK, you can argue that labout would not have won the election with it in place but it would have been nice to find out.

Worth remembering too that it was the tories who started the erosion of student benefits. The party calling itself 'labour' only followed this trend through to its' conclusion. Labours record on 'education, education, education', at all levels, has been pretty appaling though, no doubt about it.

And, as Throd mentioned, the mass sale of council housing has proved to be pretty short-sighted.

Unions can be excellent things when not used as a vehicle for someones ego. Have been involved with USDAW and, later, Unison. They both do excellent work on behalf of their members. The way in which the miners, and the Fleet Street workers for that matter, were treated by the govornment of the time was little short of deplorable.

Agreeing with the poll tax? Ah! So you're the one

There is so much wrong with labour at the moment. You can look at almost any area of their policy and find something to hate. They have let the country, and, in invading Iraq, the world, down in a seriously big way. But please, not Howard. Anyone but Howard......

 

[oblimov]

Oblimov you lack all critical thinking skills.

hmmm interested to know why u think this

ive stated current problems which are known in this country


the problem is the second you start saying them people accuse you of being a communist etc and being against civil liberties when in fact if people were civil in the first place and actually cared about others and the good of their country and others none of these plans would need to be envoked

 

[Tom]

Apparently, there's going to be a 2500 pound fine for resfusing to get one.

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=19970

Jail it is then.

 

[leggy]

Oh well look at the bright side. You'll meet people and make new friends.

The majority of the time, though, you'll be modelling a 14" cock up your arse.

 

[maxi]

hmmm interested to know why u think this

ive stated current problems which are known in this country


the problem is the second you start saying them people accuse you of being a communist etc and being against civil liberties when in fact if people were civil in the first place and actually cared about others and the good of their country and others none of these plans would need to be envoked

err. if anything your views tend toward fascism not communism, and my understanding of these things is reasonably limited.

what i find funny about the uppity public is how they codemn those who don't follow rule of law, yet are willing to break it if they find a valid moral reason to do so. As if the petty crims don't do the same.

 

[Lazarus]

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=19970

Typical government-speak. Giving you the Bright side :

"now 2 million more people in work than in 1997"
-- How many more people actually LIVE in Britain compared to 1997???

 

[oblimov]

my views are that everyone works for the good of the country

thats pretty much the jist of communism

which is totally opposite to the me me me society we live in sadly

 

[Tom]

No, in capitalist societies, everybody works for the good of themselves, and a side-effect of that is to hopefully improve our collective lot.

Greed and power work perfectly well in nature, until we live in a Utopian society the same principles work most effectively in business.

 

[maxi]

oblimov:i don't think youi know enough about either to claim those things. unless you're very lazy or just very stupid.


trying to apply communism(i dont think you are, by the way) to a society that is so used (lives and breathes) capitalism is impossible. it will not work, the people don't get what they want and so they don't work to it. the changes that are needed have to come slowly, E.g making sure people AREN'T lazy in the first place, rather than trying to stop them once they are.

 

[Bodhi]

did they make you repeat a few years Bod's ?

Nah just the one, mainly cos I spent more time on q2dm1 than I did in lectures. The "other" extra years came from the realisation that Astrophysics was going to get me an excellent job as a librarian. Hence I thought fuck that and switched to Management. Sales here we come (hopefully).

Anyway I didn't make it out of bed in time to rob the commie bastard's taxes. I shall have to do that tomorrow.

 

[nath]

Astrophysics was going to get me an excellent job as a librarian.

Tbh I think a good degree in astrophysics from St Andrews would get you an excellent job as whatever the heck you want.

 

[~Yuckfou~]

Tbh I think a good degree in astrophysics from St Andrews would get you an excellent job as whatever the heck you want.

....as long as the job you want is related to asto's or physics

 

[nath]

Not necessarily - you get an english lit degree, you don't have to work in the english lit field. A respected degree just shows you can work hard and stick at something etc. etc.

 

[~Yuckfou~]

Not necessarily - you get an english lit degree, you don't have to work in the english lit field. A respected degree just shows you can work hard and stick at something etc. etc.

Agreed, but astrophysics doesn't demonstrate those qualities any more than any other subject imo. I would prefer in all circumstances to hire someone with a degree that was relevant to the job.

 

[nath]

Well sure, but a) it's a degree from St Andrews which is known to be a very good uni and b) it's a good degree (i.e. not home economics)

Given those facts, it strikes me that it wouldn't be difficult to find a good job.

 

[throdgrain]

do they do a Klingon course ?