DAoC - PvE Grind?

[Jaem-]

Just curious to what people think of DAoC's PvE lvling up charactors and so on, is it still the PvE grind in your eyes with /lvl command, free lvls and crazy camp bonuses? Is leaving DAoC due to PVE grind still a valid arguement?


I personaly think its amazingly quick after achieveing so much in my free month of a new account, since all these addictions have been made lately, altho I've yet to ToA my charactor still.

 

[Fana]

Its ToA that takes time, you can do 20-50 with a bb in a couple weeks of pretty casuall gaming.

 

[Kami]

Having just started a new char on hib/excal where they've got the underdog bonuses and I could /level to 20 I'd say it's no longer the grind it was, especially if you can get yourself a few decent groups (yes it is possible to group if you try).

 

[Eva]

ToA is the grind now, not leveling it self. The hard part with toa is that you can't do it solo, like you can with exping. If you got a group for it though it takes short time. I got everything for my eld cept erinys (guild had exams) and battler dex cap sleeves(none on cm) in a week on my eldritch and I only farmed duo/trio. But if you don't have the right classes this can take aaaaages.

 

[Outlander]

well I know some that have started new to daoc on non-underdog realms and without the perks of buffbots n such feel its a grind

 

[Afuldan]

Catacombs will get you 50 retardedly fast. kill a green mob 50 feet away from quest giver for a bubble of XP.

 

[Grebneklaf]

Lvling is way to easy, TOA is just about how i like it................

 

[Darzil]

My preference is for combining levelling and TOA from 40th. My cleric is now 46th level, having picked up 3 freebie levels, and has ML1,2,3 and 5 done. My Merc is now 49th level, having ML1-6 done (and group steps of 7).

They won't have much 'ML grind' to get to ML10 from 50 !

They've done some Avalon levelling too, but not too much, as it's SOOOOO boring. Strange as I am I prefer ML's to normal levelling.

Darzil

 

[knighthood]

im actually trying my hardest NOT to lvl my cabby atm lol, gonna try to get ML10 in liervik ^_^

 

[Ailish]

Just my 2p really... I leveled my pali to 50 pre SI... it was a nightmare, the night she got to 50 it took the better part of 7 hours to go from 49.5 to 50 with chain-pull shredder groups in DF. Total days played 42.5 when she hit 50 (however she was at about 700 points in alchemy at the time so I cruised part of that watching a green bar)

I leveled my Merc to 50 post SI and just about pre-TOA (got her last few bubbles in Halls of the Maati) and it seemed to flow better but 40-50 still hurt... I was thrilled to get my last bubble in about an hour in the Necropolis.
Total days played was 20.5 (and she has 500 in weaponcrafting to make all the seige gear)

Tonight I hit 50 with my Wizzie, free levels aside (she got 1) and the fact that she is an icer aside (I'm picky as hell when it comes to the groups I'll trust in AC) over the course of 2 evening bimble sessions totaling about 3 hours I went from 49 to 50 in groups in PoC... she has 24 days played (700 points in spellcrafting) because it was a nightmare to get from 30-40 and I gave up and tried soloing...

All of these characters were played from level 1, never powerleveled or buffbotted in anyway (obviously) and honestly the least painful to get from 40 to 50 was the Wiz... yea I know part of that is the class, icers can fly through their 40s but like I said I am very picky about the groups I play with... I have an allergy to leeches.

The leveling grind in DAoC has dropped dramaticly and continues to do so. I have a level 32 Heretic who I can easily just log in and throw 4 or 5 bubbles on when I get home from work, I even managed to get one of the baby arti encounters for her tonight... even with the level of playing I do on the US servers (and it includes a lot of bimbling and oohhhh'ing and ahhhhh'ing over new stuff) which is maybe 2 or so hours a night in a duo with my husband not even a full group, she is easily going to be 50 within the next month or so between the new free level system (and the server I am on is the same 1 level every 7 days) the quests, the longer camp bonuses, the instances (nice to not have to try to find a place to hunt) and the extended XP numbers...

Personally after seeing it from both sides (my pali started leveling -before- DF was even in place) the 'grind' no longer exists.

 

[Draylor]

Grind to 50
Grind to ML10
Camp a few artifacts, grind xp on those
Grind out a few RRs

Then if your lucky you might have a little fun: but why bother? Too much effort for far too little reward

 

[Svartmetall]

If people think character progression, whether it be level, ML, RR or whatever, is a "grind"...why the fuck are they playing a MMORPG at all in the first place? Stick to a quick-fix genre. Whining about "grind" in a MMORPG is like deliberately going to watch "Finding Nemo" and then complaining about it having so many fish in it.

...

 

[Awarkle]

well ive played paper and dice rpgs and they have a leveling grind like any role play system. Games like final fantasy have a levleing grind you kill mobs you progress through the game you get a new level you aquire new abilitys.

I think too many people are concentrating on the end game so much they have totally forgotten the rest of daoc.

They want rr5 ml10 lvl 50 fully toaed to go out into frontiers to pwn but they arnt happy with having to work for it

And yes i remember pre SI leveling although i was clever sort of and my first character was a bard who took about 2 weeks of play time (about a month) to ding 50 and i remember a lot of late nights chain pulling fins (fins madness) infact i dinged awark(bard) about 5 mins before the gershas invaded tir na mbeo

Now awarkle my animist took me around 6 months to level because he soloed half his spells were broken and frankly noone wanted him in a group.

Awarkle mk2 my second animst took me around 2 weeks much like the bard but had about 1 weeks play time on him and he hit 50 just around about the time as toa got released at which point i had course work to finish at uni and had to postpone awarkle on mls so it took me 6 months to get to ml10 rr5.

Donkeh my vw leveled a bit quicker but thats because i borrowed someones font of power and power leveled him in fins took about under a week

My shaman on excal is in a pre set group im sort of tied to the others in terms of exping and at the moment he is 48.5 ml5 perfector soon he will be ml10 hopefully dingning lvl 50 before but im enjoying him as we went from 20 to 50 as a group through battlegrounds and exped in unknown places only got a few free level as they were towards the end of the exping as it came out.

LIke someone said if you think rvr / pve / mls / artis are a grind then your playing the wrong game. Just change your play style go off and kill different mobs instead of going to the exact same camps for every char you level.
There are some interesting monsters in some of the deeper areas dont just follow a guide.

anyway i think catacombs will make exping even easier with instance dungeons and quests and stuff. Frankly im looking forward to exping my banshee and valkyrie if i cant get teh groups then ive always got bots to fall back on

 

[Dwali]

well ive played paper and dice rpgs and they have a leveling grind like any role play system. Games like final fantasy have a levleing grind you kill mobs you progress through the game you get a new level you aquire new abilitys.

I think too many people are concentrating on the end game so much they have totally forgotten the rest of daoc.

They want rr5 ml10 lvl 50 fully toaed to go out into frontiers to pwn but they arnt happy with having to work for it

And yes i remember pre SI leveling although i was clever sort of and my first character was a bard who took about 2 weeks of play time (about a month) to ding 50 and i remember a lot of late nights chain pulling fins (fins madness) infact i dinged awark(bard) about 5 mins before the gershas invaded tir na mbeo

Now awarkle my animist took me around 6 months to level because he soloed half his spells were broken and frankly noone wanted him in a group.

Awarkle mk2 my second animst took me around 2 weeks much like the bard but had about 1 weeks play time on him and he hit 50 just around about the time as toa got released at which point i had course work to finish at uni and had to postpone awarkle on mls so it took me 6 months to get to ml10 rr5.

Donkeh my vw leveled a bit quicker but thats because i borrowed someones font of power and power leveled him in fins took about under a week

My shaman on excal is in a pre set group im sort of tied to the others in terms of exping and at the moment he is 48.5 ml5 perfector soon he will be ml10 hopefully dingning lvl 50 before but im enjoying him as we went from 20 to 50 as a group through battlegrounds and exped in unknown places only got a few free level as they were towards the end of the exping as it came out.

LIke someone said if you think rvr / pve / mls / artis are a grind then your playing the wrong game. Just change your play style go off and kill different mobs instead of going to the exact same camps for every char you level.
There are some interesting monsters in some of the deeper areas dont just follow a guide.

anyway i think catacombs will make exping even easier with instance dungeons and quests and stuff. Frankly im looking forward to exping my banshee and valkyrie if i cant get teh groups then ive always got bots to fall back on

and i love to xp my heretic do i can face u

 

[Fana]

If people think character progression, whether it be level, ML, RR or whatever, is a "grind"...why the fuck are they playing a MMORPG at all in the first place? Stick to a quick-fix genre. Whining about "grind" in a MMORPG is like deliberately going to watch "Finding Nemo" and then complaining about it having so many fish in it.

...

Because character progression *is* a grind? No matter how you look at it the only way to "get" anywhere in this game is to grind out exp, by killing stuff and some limited questing that includes more killing of stuff. I was an avid pen and paper rpg'er a few years back but when i played p&p i didnt roleplay a homocidial maniac killing tons and tons of stuff which is the only option in mmorpg's of this kind really if your looking for any sort of character development. Sure you can dwadle about and try to roleplay here as well, but the game mechanics doesnt reward it in any way, so then I might instead ask why not play a proper rpg instead if thats what your looking for?

When i watch "Finding Nemo" i expect there to be fish - when i play a mmorpg i expect it to be fun, and grinding isnt fun in any sense of the word. I just dont understand the mentality of the people who say "If you dont like it, go play something else" - i say there is always room for improvement, and because i like the basic precepts of mmorpgs i want them to play as painlessly as possible. Grinding is a pain to most people, therefore i want it gone. Catacombs will adress this somewhat, making you actually kill less things by giving you more mini-missions and quests that makes the play feel more realistic, and this is great.
One of the basic things a mmorpg developer should always look to is making the player feel like he is special and what he does matters - giving reasons for killing and moving around the world realizes this goal, and so does making that process as ardourous as possible, by not having big roadbumps which a single or a few players cant overcome (ML's etc).

 

[Arumos]

I agree the pve aspect is a grind, i love daoc but the part of daoc i love is the pvp/rvr system. I only have 1 50 in the 2 years i've played the game due to the fact i don't enjoy leveling and have no chracters to pl with so its solo with a bb which for me is no fun. People enjoy the game in different ways, i know people with 10+ 50 chars because they DO enjoy the leveling "grind" but ofcause they don't have a char above RR4. To me i can't see me getting another 50 at all unless lvling is quicker so i'll continue my obbession with the lower bgs

To me the fact that i enjoy my class (runemaster) and the quality of the rvr system, has given me hours of fun and more motivated to my goal of RR10 : )

 

[Saggy]

How people describe "grind" anyway? For me it has always meant something you hate but will do anyway to be able to do something you love to do - for example I remember Svartmetall saying he hates RvR but does it to get RAs for PvE = grinding in my book

 

[protvanglad]

Levelling to lvl 50 is far more easy than it was just a year ago pre-TOA.

I really think DAOC's problem is TOA and all that comes with it.

You level a character to lvl 50 in order to take him out in RVR, because this is all this game is about since the 1-50 process is just an endless pull-kill without many quests and substance. And when you do ding 50 and take him out you realise that you should go and TOA him just to be competitive.

Of course this involves a HUGE grind thats' called master levels and it is a grind not for any other reason but for that it needs huge amount of players getting together in order to complete the most important steps. This is just killing me and my character since he has been waiting for the last 3 months to get a proper ML5 raid, since I've got a life as well and hell i'm not going to let a game rule and organise my IRL and make plans according to when this raid is.

I really think this should be far easier if they could make the ml solo questing or even group one but definitely not battlegroup.

Artifacts are a pain to get, you got to wait for hours and in many cases days for the mob to pop and then you may loose it in between or steal it from you and then you'll have to wait another few days for it to pop again.

Srcolls are very hard to get and either you should farm for hours or buy them paying amounts of money that are at least crazy.

When you get them you should go kill same mobs over and over again for days to level them.

And all this in order to take your toon out to fight.

Totally unacceptable for me, it will kill daoc, WoW is out, for me personally all the above were my reasons why I've quitted playing and catacombs arent going to save the situation since they dont do nothing about these issues.

Have fun at work erk sorry playing my friends.

 

[old.Whoodoo]

Totally unacceptable for me, it will kill daoc, WoW is out, for me personally all the above were my reasons why I've quitted playing and catacombs arent going to save the situation since they dont do nothing about these issues.

I knew it wouldnt take long for someone to mention WOW, hate to tell you this, but its got the same inherant problems, already (3 weeks into live) low level players are complaining about lack of groups, the grind etc, despite the great quest system.

As for killing DAoC, thats the most idiotic thing you could possibly say, DAoC's leveling grind was 10 times worse up until TOA. Now it takes the same time to level a toon to 50, get artis and level them as it used to just get to 50. Want proof, ask anyone with a new toon if they had more than 32 days played when they dinged all their items. Besides which, after 3 years, many old school are stil here playing happily. Saying PvE is boring is a pure lack of imagination, why bother playing any form of RPG? For you RvR might be endgame, and yes I only have 2 toons over RR4, but its not for everyone.

Lets face it, RvR is just a grind against other players, so wheres the difference? Only mobs dont come in 4fg with uber skills and wipe you out every 10 minutes. Whats more insane, killing mobs for 2 hours productively making cash and getting items, or going RvR, dying, releasing, buffing, repeating...reminds me of this line:

What if I told you insane was working fifty hours a week in some office for fifty years at the end of which they tell you to piss off; ending up in some retirement village hoping to die before suffering the indignity of trying to make it to the toilet on time? Wouldn’t you consider that to be insane?

At least PvE can have variety.

 

[Eroda]

I dont mind leveling a char to 50 at all, it can be fun.

What i dislike about the pve side of things now is artifact scrolls, the total randomness of drops is nothing but frustration. Things such as nailahs 3 or Mad tales 3 can be a total nightmare to get hold of, it just shouldn't be like that imo.
I reckon a quest system would have been far better where at the end of it, they rewarded u with one of the artifact scrolls. Least u would feel u were making progress even if the quests were long and dull. In the current system i could quite easily spend a week killing a mob and still not get the scroll, its silly.

 

[Jaem-]

Hmm reading some of the posts so far, I'm getting the general feel that people want all the best items/artifacts/abilities, without the time and effort needed to be put in to gain such things, am I wrong about this? :-o

 

[Fana]

Hmm reading some of the posts so far, I'm getting the general feel that people want all the best items/artifacts/abilities, without the time and effort needed to be put in to gain such things, am I wrong about this? :-o

Your wrong yes - They want a somewhat equal end-game playingfield that isnt dependant on if you can first spend 200 hours to gather stuff that is, simply put, essential in todays rvr.
Also, they dont want endless and mindless killing of the same mobs to get an item/ability etc.

 

[Deepfat]

I levelled 6 characters to 50 in DaoC and in all honesty, with the exception of guild groups with friends, I considered it to be a grind. Can't say I put up with the PvE for any other reason than I wanted to get to 50 with another character. However, ToA seemed like an entirely pointless grind, especially since I had 5 level 50s by the release date and without quitting my job and spending my enitire waking life online there was no way that all 5 could be made RvR viable.

Pen and paper rpgs are entirely different since, to me at least, there's never a grind of any kind. I play 3.5 ed D'n'D with a group of 6 players and a GM and between us there's around 180 years or so of roleplaying experience. Our campaign is very story driven and when we make levels we're pleasantly suprised rather than eagerly awaiting the next set of abilities/hit points/magic items etc. Every fight for us is a part of the ongoing (2 years or more now) story. As for pen and paper rpgs being for kids, well, at 34 I'm the youngest player in the group!

I play a warrior priestess of Tempus with no common sense, a habit of smashing up pubs and a hatred of halflings. (How can you truast anyone whose line of sight is round your crotch and your purse!) I'm only 6 fighter / 2 priest in 2 years or so so we're not exactly powergamers!

 

[old.Whoodoo]

Your wrong yes - They want a somewhat equal end-game playingfield that isnt dependant on if you can first spend 200 hours to gather stuff that is, simply put, essential in todays rvr.
Also, they dont want endless and mindless killing of the same mobs to get an item/ability etc.

Think you are wrong too, funny how DAoC survived for a year before SI then another year for TOA with little more to do than exp, again, with 32 days /played on a toon to 50 in the old days, your piss poor 200 hours is a breeze in comparison, and I have to say most players enjoyed the game more back then than they do now (give 1.42 anytime!)

Again, MMORPGs dont really have an end game, Counterstrike does. Now youre playing WOW I see, enjoy your "mindless killing of the same mobs" wont you.

Hmm reading some of the posts so far, I'm getting the general feel that people want all the best items/artifacts/abilities, without the time and effort needed to be put in to gain such things, am I wrong about this? :-o

Best suggestion Ive seen in ages, this "chance to drop" things is a crippler.

 

[Saggy]

Again, MMORPGs dont really have an end game, Counterstrike does. Now youre playing WOW I see, enjoy your "mindless killing of the same mobs" wont you.

I think its the opposite - MMORPGs have some sort of endgame but CS doesn't. Or what comes before endgame in CS (there has to be start to have end )?

 

[old.Whoodoo]

I think its the opposite - MMORPGs have some sort of endgame but CS doesn't. Or what comes before endgame in CS (there has to be start to have end )?

Wrong;

MMORPG = never ending adventure, exporing new things, adding new content, finding different ways to acomplish goals, expanding the imagination, role playing (thats what the RP in MMORPG is, some dont seem to know that) etc etc

DAoC, UO, AC2, WOW all have expansions, to make them ever larger in ALL aspects, RvR changed with NF and TOA, PvE changed in SI, TOA and Catacombes, and Mythic and all the other companies are always looking towards the next addon or extentions.

CounterStrike = Log on, kill, log off.

 

[Killswitch]

Think I said this in another thread, but I don't mind repeating myself (I mean, what am I going to do at work? Work? Pffft!).


DAOC (and other MMORPGs) have a "persistent environment". Things that you do have lasting effects. You log on at level 25, make 5 levels and then log off. Next time you log on, you're still level 30.

With the above in mind, how can you be fair to everyone? What would constitute a "equal end-game playingfield that isnt dependant on if you can first spend 200 hours to gather stuff"? Is the person who said that saying that if they had the same template as someone who plays 50 hours a week to their 5 hours, they would be able to compete in RvR with them?

It is good for the game if more people play and if more people are on at peak times. It is good for the game if people run ML raids, arti raids and community events like Dragon and Sidi raids. People who play more, go on more raids, RvR more etc. will have better gear, better abilities (ML+RA) and more skill. Even with the number of I-Win Buttons available in todays game, skill and dedication are the two constants that will make a "good" player.

If you want a totally-level playing field where PvP skill is the ONLY deciding factor then you need;

/level 50
no Artifacts
no MLs
no SC
no Alch
in fact, no crafting at all
all drops available free from merchants in the starting areas
either no RAs or RR10L10 at about 2000RPs

Which of these things above has created the huge imbalance between the hardcore players and the casual players? In my opinion, none of them. I reckon if all servers were made like Gorre with the Gold&Glory merchants and the never-ending ROG chests, Synergy/Nolby/LA/DH/FC and all the other good GGs would still dominate FG RvR, because of the fact that they have dedicated such a large amount of time to RvR/PvE in the fight to be "the best" shows that they have the drive that the casual, 5hrs a week player just simply CANNOT have.

WoW will not cure this. Removing BBs will not cure this. The players who play the longest, form the right groups and learn to play the game and practice practice practice will always be the best players. Like Whoodoo says, the amount of time to level/ML/TOA a character is less now than just levelling a char back pre-SI.

Simple truth is this. If you view DAOC purely as a vehicle for fighting other human beings online, you're missing the point of the game. Despite what YOU want to use it for, DAOC is a ROLE-PLAYING game. The reason it's a grind is that you want to do all the boring stuff as quick as possible. If you played the game 'properly' ie exploring, making groups, questing, maybe even *gasp* roleplaying, you would be playing the game as it was designed to be played. I'm no roleplayer, but I still enjoy playing chars up sometimes, exploring places, doing quests I've not done before. Other times, I just like to PL like there's no tomorrow and it's DULL.

It's your subs, your gameplay and I totally respect that. However, to do your best to leapfrog the entire substance of the game and then complain that it takes too long to do is just...wrong I think. Maybe someone should just try to make an OFEmain map for Counterstrike instead. I know people say that kind of thing in a joking way, but it's a valid point.

Counterstrike is a game designed to strip away all differences between players EXCEPT skill. The only thing that stops me winning the World's Greatest Counterstike Players Olympics is that there are about 20,000,000 better CS players in the world than me. It's that simple. You play more, you get better. If you have naturally good reflexes or just a natural affinity for FPS-style games, you will get very good. The only reward for playing lots of CS is an increase in skill.

DAOC is a game that rewards time and effort in a different way. Not only do you get increases skill, you also get better gear, a bigger house, more RAs, more toys. It gives more reward to the less-gifted/more-casual players, in forms of quests, adventures, battlegrounds. It tries to give interesting and new content like TOA/Catacombs/SI. It's ruined in Europe somewhat, because when a new expansion comes out, we just look on the net for all the locs and tactics. This encourages the "it's just PvE, get it out of the way ASAP" attitude that I think ruins the game more than the "grind".

Think I've talked enough now...or too much Read and discuss OR ignore and flame plz.

 

[Svartmetall]

How people describe "grind" anyway? For me it has always meant something you hate but will do anyway to be able to do something you love to do - for example I remember Svartmetall saying he hates RvR but does it to get RAs for PvE = grinding in my book

Absolutely, when I RvR I have one weary eye on the RP-meter and when I have enough I get the hell out. And, believe it or not, I really wish it wasn't like that. I play games to have fun, and being endlessly killed by effectively unbeatable high RR players/groups is in no way, shape or size fun. "Let's go RvR!"...why? To get instakilled in 2 seconds by a high-RR gank group? To get steamrolled in 2 seconds by a mega zerg? To stand around at a keep being target practice for casters and archers against whom I have no chance of fighting back? What's the point? Where's the fun? What do I or my character get out of that?
Nothing.
Believe me, I would much rather RvR was rewarding, challenging, fulfilling, but sadly at this stage in the game it is none of these things, for most of us, most of the time. I'm just about to get my Aug Shaman to 50, and I need some RAs for him. I wish I could say "I'm looking forward to RvRing with him", but "I need some RAs" is unfortunately much closer to the truth.

I don't hate RvR itself. No, really. I wouldn't have played Quake 3 as much as I did and gotten as far as I did in that game if I didn't like good PvP. I just don't think think DAOC's current implementation of RvR is good PvP, even if watching the gankz0rs going on about it you could be forgiven for thinking they really did want to be playing Quake Team Deathmatch. 8v8 = team deathmatch, no matter how much you try to dress it up in MMORPG clothes, and look at how many l337-ers seem to automatically assume RvR (or even DAOC itself) automatically means 8v8, which is total nonsense. If all you want is 8v8 you really, really would be much happier in QTD.

I don't hate RvR; I hate the fact that RvR sucks for most players, most of the time. I had an absolutely great day of RvR a month or two back in Thid with my Cave Shaman, it rocked; I actually had fun. Nobody was more surprised than me, and god, did I wish it was like that all the time.
But it's not.
Most of post-50 RvR these days is, sadly, akin to pulling out your own fingernails with a pair of pliers for many, many players. Particularly for low RRs and melee classes. It really is. That's what I have a problem with.



EDIT: Great post, Killswitch. FPSes do PvP infinitely better than MMORPGs. If someone wants a level playing field with skill as the only factor, then DAOC is absolutely the wrong game for them. I've seen RvR fanatics say they think there should be a DAOC server with insta lvl 50/ML10/level 10 artifacts...and I just shake my head, because they're 100% missing the point of a game like this and would genuinely be happier in Quake/CS/whatever if that's what they honsetly think would be a good MMORPG server.

...

 

[Svartmetall]

The analogy of high-RR vs. low-RR in Quake would be being up against someone who had access to bigger guns, more ammo, better armour and more power-ups than you had access to. And the only way to get access to those items yourself was to let that superior player with all the better toys kill you. Over and over and over and over and over again.

How long would you want to play a game like that?

Yes, in theory if you make yourself endure months and months and months and months of being farmed by high RRs you might eventually accumulate enough RPs to become high RR yourself. But I don't think you're going to have much fun along the way.

...

 

[Dorin]

Absolutely, when I RvR I have one weary eye on the RP-meter and when I have enough I get the hell out.
...

same here back when this weary eye of mine was on : the xp bar - artifacts - scrolls - drops - xp bar again - ml-raids...

my eye still hurts :[

High - RRs die just like everyone else, dont really understand whats your prob there... maybe put the same amount of effort into rvsr that you did in pve? its harder, but doable imho... or am i missing your point there