Crafting prices

[Roalith]

No, this is not a thread to promote my own stock, of which I currently have very little

It is intended to get a discussion moving amongst Albion's crafters, and to show non-crafters that in fact, we are not here to rip you off.

Now, I know that particularly recently, I have ruffled a few feathers by offering near-cost 99%s. Let me explain my method.

Base cost for a crown is 309g. For ease of calcution, round down to 300g. Remake cost is 73g per crown (Material cost less merchant sellback).

I only work on a consignment basis where people are willing to invest signifcant amounts of cash upfront. For an MP crown I would take 4p up front, and give change as necessary.

Let's assume working on the averages of 1 MP and 8 99% crowns in a run of 50 makes. Bear in mind this is all theoretical, and does rely on the averages kicking in. We all get bad runs which throw this result out the window, and good runs which do likewise. In the good times I can then sell the MP even cheaper, and in the bad times I need to rely on selling the 99%s to make up some of the difference, and still occasionally take a loss.

So, starting with 4p, and getting 8 x 99% and 1 x MP.

Working at base cost for a crown, with no tailored underpart markup and no markup on the finished item works out at 3.6 plat, or thereabouts.

Subtotal 400g

Selling the 8 99%s at 1.3x cost (Approx 400g) gives us:
Sub total 3.6p

Selling the MP to the person who ordered it for a fixed price of 7.5 x base gives 2.4 platinum approx. Which means 1.6p change to the ordering individual.

Sub total 2p

Factor in 20% markup on the tailored underparts gives another 300g

Total: 1.7p

Personally, I consider this a good return for a couple of hour's work. You make 8 people happy by selling them a cheap 99% crown, you make the person who ordered the crown happy by giving them 1.6p change. You're happy because you made a profit.

That said - MP orders aren't exactly pouring from the skies, and the ever-increasing number of crafters means that the orders are even more diluted unless you are very well known and very active for taking MP orders. Likewise, it takes a significant investment of both time and money. And again, I will say that it does depend on the averages. Works for me most of the time though.

Other people prefer crafting to make 99%s, whether it be cost+remake with a markup or a flat fixed price regardless of the number of remakes.

In any case: Crafters do not work to rip people off, unless their name is Nerner. A crafter who operates a fixed price does so for the ease of customer understanding - not everyone can be bothered to look into the mechanics, and if they want the item there and then they offer a very good option.
Made-to-order 99% crafters may well be cheaper, but they will take a considerably longer time than just picking up a premade at a slightly higher price. My own method suffers from stock fluctuations depending on what I am crafting on the time, and while it generally offers the cheapest prices you could theoretically have to wait ages for a 99% depending on what orders I'm taking at the time.

I personally don't believe the crafting market is in anywhere near a duldrum at the minute. If anything, it is better than ever - the 3 primarily different methodologies promote interesting competition within the market, and each have their own pros and cons.

 

[speshneeds]

I get some stick of the (very few) active fletchers for selling stuff around 15% ish cheaper than what is considered the "norm" but like roa, most of my 99's come from MP orders as I craft in much the same way. Also, if i am crafting without an order I craft to get MP's, not 99's. They are sellable by products imo and if i can help peoples out by selling them cheaper then its gotta be good for realm as a whole. Just cant wait to get a consignment merchant and be done with waiting for people to collect stuff cos that is the _biggest_ pain in the arse :x

 

[chretien]

I generally only make stuff to order, any stock I have is as a result of having leftover linings from an order and being lucky enough to hit one or more 99% with these extras.

I work for fixed prices for all 99% and below orders at an average mark up of 2.5x materials cost, This is because I simply can't afford to sell the finished product for less than the average that it costs to make and it pisses me off when I get a customer asking why it costs so much and how come the guy skilling up/churning them out from an MP order can afford to sell them for half my price. They naturally assume that the difference between the two prices is my profit margin and rightly question that. Cue a very long and generally wasted discussion into how crafting to order works.

I don't get enough MP orders these days to keep a large stock of cheap 99%s, I sell what I have at a fair price that on average generates a small amount of profit. I'm just fed up of being made to look like a crook by people flooding the open market with unrealistically cheap 99% stuff.

 

[frogster]

I craft to order, and usually only for friends as crafting isnt my primary source of income. This means i get to avoid idiots who think im there solely to craft for them with 0 return or even loss.
I may start crafting more after the consignment merchants are introduced

 

[SoulFly Amarok]

*Hugs teh eeN*

 

[darzil]

The trouble with the economics is they are different for all items, and complicated.

Your policy of selling 8 x 99% crowns cheap for every MP crown only works so long as the market want's crowns in that ratio.

In studded, I've only once been asked for a 99% part, in three months, everyone else wants the cheap MP parts that get sold off when people put in 99% orders, which they aren't doing !

For the expensive pieces (Vest, Legs, Helm) in Chain or Plate, then at the moment 8 99's per MP is not far off. For the cheaper pieces (Arms, Gloves, Boots), it's certainly fewer 99's per MP.

For weapons it gets even worse. Many people only want MP these days, so there is almost no market for 99's. This means you cannot subsidise your MP market with the 99's.

Traditionally there are three strategies :

1. Make mainly 99's to order, and then sell the MPs cheap as they are an accidental bonus.

2. Make mainly MPs to order, and then sell the 99s cheap as they are a bonus.

3. Make both, set up a shop, and hope that selling beneath the 99 price of strategy 1, and the MP price of strategy 2, works out. (This will be more common with housing - for those able to put 10's of Plat into making stock)

Which strategy is chosen depends on the market for the particular goods. In general, though, from the above, although method 3 can offer the 'fairest' price, it doesn't go as cheap on MPs as strategy 1, nor as cheap on 99s as strategy 2. It also uses up more of the crafter's money in stock.

Darzil

 

[naetha]

I don't craft unles I'm tortured into it, and even then I only do it for guild

<reluctant crafter>

 

[frogster]

/em gets out the whips and paddles :O!

 

[hrodelbert]

i can craft some BG weapons ;x

 

[frogster]

Are they pink? :O

 

[hrodelbert]

in a perfect world...

 

[Xeanor]

Prices for 99% items on player merchants are 90% of material cost on US servers, the 10% you don't get back is covered by an MP.

And with the player merchant search engine in 1.64 you can easily find the cheapest 99%/MP being sold on whatever merchant. oO

So you just enter 99% plate in the search engine, and you can easily get the cheapest...

 

[sru]

Originally posted by Xeanor
Prices for 99% items on player merchants are 90% of material cost on US servers, the 10% you don't get back is covered by an MP.

Depends on servers and crafter population. Some servers are still in the 2x cost bracket.

 

[Xeanor]

You'll still have to keep your price at the same level as others, or you won't sell anything.

 

[bigchief]

Got a new sc recently (wednesday infact) and needed 2 99% GR's to complete it.

Asked around in diogel and found a WC, asked the price and they said 600g (for the pair). 300g a sword is cheap so like yer please etc, then i got a reply of 'ok be a couple of minutes I only have one in stock'.

Now say average for a 99% is 6 makes thats 495g with 0 markup. On just the one sword, but I got it for 300g whatever the cost.

Ok say you have 8 lots of these to make, they all take 6 makes and you sell for 300g. Thats 8 x 195g loss, ie 1.5p. There would in an ideal world be an MP in there somewhere (48 makes, 1/50 chance of an mp) which you can sell for 3p.

So in a perfectly ideal world theyve only made 1.5p in making 8 swords. Thats assuming theres a demand for that many 99% swords anyway. Not something id do if I ever took up crafting again tbh.

Then again, if theyd gone it will be 500g a sword, id probably have asked around a little more first. Guess weve been spoiled by cheap 99's flooding the markets I know a friend that asked how much a full set of chain (99%) averaged out at. I told him and he though that was rather alot because <blah> got his for quite alot less. Alot of people dont realise how expensive crafting is, even for 99%'s and bitch like fk about prices. Saw someone try to sell a 99% LD for 500g and he got shouted at quite alot

 

[wildsorcerer]

tbh when consigment merchants come all 99% will b at cost and MP will b as they shoudl b

 

[Aoln]

Originally posted by hrodelbert
i can craft some BG weapons ;x

i have stlong MP crtafted bastard sword on my BG alt by you !

 

[speshneeds]

99's at cost means i will only craft when i have a mp order ~~

in fact, will prolly quit crafting if it comes to that, just not worth it

 

[old.Revz]

You should just get a syndicate of crafters together and artificially establish prices at whatever level you want It wouldn't even require everyone to agree because there is only a certain amount one or two people can craft at any time. I digress though...

Another solution is for guilds to powerlevel their own crafters up (by providing cash etc.) and use those. You get weapons at cost price then because everyone had an investment in getting the skill there. We did this with Boney and it worked quite well. What it seems is that the market is being broken by crafters who don't rely on crafting as their main source of income. If you are crafting for the items not the profit then you can quite happily sell off incidental stuff at less than cost price just to get some money back quickly.

Merchants in houses should solve the complaining problem in a similar way that the bazaar did for EQ You basically pay the price or moan at an NPC/AFK trader character. Interesting the different strategies for making money/items from crafting though. I have to say that it never struck me as a particularly profitable past-time, even at the start when high level crafters were very rare. Too much time, effort and trouble that could be better spent farming 1plat/hour or so. Even more if you just sell off spare items

 

[SoulFly Amarok]

Crafting's an absolute pisstake.

I'm doing mp af 56 leather set, done everything else than the jerkin, which's taken more than 100 retries, still no mp, a pile of 99%'s, tho they're useless.

If mythic won't change it to 1 out of 50 = MP I would advice not to take up on crafting, just leave it, many already have

It's nice to spend 1.5p to an mp leather set for a lvl 24. Yes, really.

 

[old.windforce]

why in heavens name you want a MP BG set

it is so easy to cap everything at level 24

 

[SoulFly Amarok]

For fun ;o

 

[old.windforce]

ah ok
only good reason to cap everything tbh

 

[old.linnet]

I guess if a crafter cartel could raise enough money, you could just run round and buy all pieces that were being sold at less than your recommended price and put them back on the market at the higher level.

But something tells me that would backfire

Anyway, as long as there are crafters who will make MPs for close to cost price (for friends, guildees, whoever) and release excess 99s to the market at anything above what the merchant will pay, then it's going to happen. The problem is having too many 99% pieces available for the demand and that happens because MPs are in such demand for SCing. If a MP had the same number of SC slots as a 99%, but increased durability and slightly increased effectiveness, the problem would not exist imo.

 

[krait]

Originally posted by frogster
I craft to order, and usually only for friends as crafting isnt my primary source of income. This means i get to avoid idiots who think im there solely to craft for them with 0 return or even loss.
I may start crafting more after the consignment merchants are introduced

Same with me ,I only craft for friends or for the guild (when I was guilded) and always at material cost.Far too many ungrateful people in this game unfortunately
The consignment merchants will be a breath of fresh air when they arrive ( I hope ).

 

[GReaper]

Roalith, how many masterpiece and 99% quality orders do you usually get?

As a tailor I mostly get masterpiece orders with 99%'s being mostly junk. With a cloth set costing about 3.8p and a leather set costing 6.8p from me, most people I make orders for can easily afford the masterpieces.

However if I used the same pricing method as I do for tailoring, it would cost just under 22p for someone to buy a chain set off me.



Taking a look at your pricing in more detail though (using your approx values):

You sell a MP helm at 2400g.
It costs (on average) 4360g to make (including tailors fee).

Which is 1960g difference.

You sell 99% helms at 400g.
You need to sell 4.9 helms to break even.



Which is fine if you've got a lot of 99% orders, which I assume you get with armourcrafting. However...

What if someone else charged considerably less than you for 99% parts? They could be selling higher priced masterpieces to someone and lowering the price of their 99%'s. How would you sell your 99%'s if someone else was selling theirs cheaper?

Interesting thread anyway.

 

[Xeanor]

Originally posted by old.linnet
If a MP had the same number of SC slots as a 99%, but increased durability and slightly increased effectiveness, the problem would not exist imo.

Most classes just need a 99% set to cap all the needed things. (2-4 stats, all resists, 200 hits, 1-3 skills)

If you really want to "cap" every stat and skills of use to you you can use MP items, but that's only for people who are a bit more "hardcore", and those people will have the time/money to pay the MPs.

 

[Roalith]

GReaper - tailoring and armourcrafting markets are fundamentally different. For a start, due to the cheaper cost of tailoring items generally people only want MP tailored leather or cloth - so yes, unfortunately for you most 99%s will be trash.

Armourcraft is a different matter though. More expensive pieces means people are willing to work with 99%s in their SC template, and opt for the cheap MP parts only (boots, gloves, arms).

As I said earlier though, when I am crafting I generally take around 2 MP parts a week, sometimes more if I get an order in for a full set. The 99%s I sell as premade generally outnumber the number of buyers, and takes a bit of pimping in Goth Harbour to get rid of them.

As for people selling 99%s cheaper and MPs more expensive... good luck to them. Again, as I originally said I only do these on order, not off my own back or own investment.

 

[old.linnet]

Originally posted by Xeanor
Most classes just need a 99% set to cap all the needed things. (2-4 stats, all resists, 200 hits, 1-3 skills)

If you really want to "cap" every stat and skills of use to you you can use MP items, but that's only for people who are a bit more "hardcore", and those people will have the time/money to pay the MPs.

Technically yes, but certainly with tailoring, people can generally afford MPs and will order them. I don't remember the last time I even saw a 99% order... that's why there are so many 99s around (oh, and the numbers of crafters skilling up)


BUt as Roa says, if you assume you get a MP per 50 tries and a 99% per 5 tries, then you get 9 99%s per masterpiece order. You don't need many hardcore people ordering MPs to oversupply you with 99s. (so I just think that if the difference between them was less, it would decrease the number of MP orders.)

Note: I suspect it is fair to say prolly 1/10 - 1/15 people ordering crafted gear may well be 'hardcore' players wanting gear for alts, since casual players are more likely to use epic/ drops anyway.

 

[Danya]

Originally posted by SoulFly Amarok
Crafting's an absolute pisstake.

I'm doing mp af 56 leather set, done everything else than the jerkin, which's taken more than 100 retries, still no mp, a pile of 99%'s, tho they're useless.

If mythic won't change it to 1 out of 50 = MP I would advice not to take up on crafting, just leave it, many already have

It's nice to spend 1.5p to an mp leather set for a lvl 24. Yes, really.

It is 1 out of 50 makes is a MP. That doesn't mean you'll get a MP within 50 makes. But the times you get none in 100 are balanced by getting 1 in 5 makes and such.
In fact you only have a 74% chance of getting a MP in 50 makes and 87% chance of getting one in 100, so that's not even that unlucky...