Cost`s as a cure for heavyspam

[old.Plantpot]

Heavy...when?

I was light sniper most of the weekend cept one time on BS and flagswaps

What was I counting?

 

[old.TheGuyver]

erm....

dunno.. was deffo u tho m8.. i was stood behind u... u were counting the seconds between the ridges and when u next needed to look at the screen... maybe u dont remeber it cause it so natural

no offence intended... just used u as an example cause u were there....

 

[old.[HH]Rhoadie]

Well I have watched this debate about heavy O for quite a while now , some points I agree with , a lot I dont.

I have played heavy O at div 1 level from the first UKTL , not thru choice ( light flag runner was my first choice ), but because we had a need for it and no one else wanted to do it .

In the early days heavies on offence were laughed at and chewed up in the open by unskilled lights. There were a few of us that persevered (sp?) and became skilled and found the routes to nme base ( I was using some ski routes 9 months ago that other people havent found yet ). Now days people watch heavies then copy the routes to the nme base and start throwing mortars ,
This doesnt make them skilled , there are still not that many "skilled" heavies out there .

I dont think that for league matches there should be any cost or other limitations on the use of heavies .

I do think that there is a definate need for symetrical maps tho. At the moment I think every map has a preffered base with better routes for heavy offence . This needs to be addressed and made a lot fairer.

As to heavy spam on a public server that is another matter. I was at a mates place watching him play , there were 5/6 tagged players on one side 1 on the other , probably 2/3 reasonable players spread between the teams and the rest were newbies. The sight of 2 KT heavies taking residence with disps and turrets in the nme base (on iceridge) wasnt pretty. Unfortunately it seems be very common these days to see 6/7 tagged players in one team and 1 or 2 in the other .

If the teams were balanced , in skill terms , and we had fair maps , then I believe that heavy spam would become merely a nuisance to be dealt with. The more experienced players would have some competition and hopefully newbies would live long enough to get some experience and enjoy the game.

I personally do not enjoy being on either side in a game that ends 5/6/8/10-nil in under 10 minutes.

 

[Mongrol]

Bizarre though it may seem but I spent all my time at I2 heavy skiing and gen camping.

Got plenty practise in and as I`m now an experienced light and heavy blokey it`s easy to spot that heavy off takes tons less skill than light. It takes 10 mins to find a particular route for where you want to go and another 10 to master it.
As for teamwork, I stand by Afty on that one, co-ordinated light is far more essential than co-ordinated heavy, obviously depending on the situation.


------------------
Mongrol,
Crunchy on the outside,
Chewy on the inside.

 

[old.Fusion]

That's generalisation mongrol.
It just depends on how well things are defended. Light offense can be easy sometimes, difficult others, same with heavy.
I've played teams that neglect gen defense and normally end up with a trashed base, others have skilled defenders who defend it properly and its a different story.

Anyone suggesting heavy offense is individual skill is sadly mistaken. Sometimes it takes real teamwork and co-ordinated heavy attacks to get the job done.

Or are you just playing on the wrong servers like I think you are, where any crap heavy attacker can wreck a base on their own?

 

[old.zach]

From watching demos of the Imperial Elite, their main flag runners [IE]-Natural and [IE]-WarNipple seem to rely on individual skill (something their not short off) rather than teamwork to get the enemy flag.

As I said earlier heavy O is not just skiing but how effective you are, some heavy O players I’ve seen are a lot more effective than others, that’s were the skill is.

The main job of the heavy O is to make life easier for the flag runners.

Offence in general is not that difficult, which is why players with high pings can be very effective. Defence on the other hand is much more difficult, a low ping is essential along with good skill with the chaingun sniper rifle etc.

If you make mistakes while playing in defence it often results in the enemy getting caps and I think its fair to say that the defence need s a greater level of teamwork than the offence does.

- Zach

 

[old.Coyote]

My twopence worth:-

HEAVY O does not require massive teamwork in itself. A single skilled HEAVY O simply needs to get to the nme base (slip, jump, LPC etc.) and then do the damage. One single well-trained HEAVY O is the same as three medium or poorly trained HEAVY O in most respects.

The job of the HEAVY O is to a) trash nme base, b) take control of GENS, c) distract Light Defence team or preferable all three of the above.

The co-ordination and teamwork required by the HEAVY O...is not with other HEAVY players, its with the light O that follow them. Similarly I believe the Light O players need coordination and teamwork on two levels, firstly as flag cappers and secondly as part of the offence team (there are more game types than CTF remember).

For example...A single (skilled) HEAVY O on raindance can take down GENS, draw away two or three defenders and trash the base in one attack run. Meanwhile the first light O makes a flag run, and if unsuccessful he/she draws away the remaining flad D while the real attacker skips in, grabs flag and buggers off.

Thats 3 ppl on offence who can slip in and out of a 5 person defence *IF* they co-ordinate the attack. That is teamwork. Its the teamwork between the Assault/offence team that counts, not between HEAVY or Light players within the assault team as a subgroup.

For defence its the same story. Defence players have roles to play, and some roles require support from other Defence players. One lets the other down...it all falls apart - however there are circumstances where a single skilled individual can make the difference (single HEAVY Flag Demon or GENS defender)

However - I would not say that its more lethal for the D to screwup than the O...since a perfect D and totally uncoordinated O still results in a draw..which is pointless. The O and D teams have to be self sufficient, but capable of co-operating when required. One is not more important that the other. Both are equally as critical to any game and the really slick teams are those that can recognise this, and adapt in game to changing circumstances by alternating between defence or offence favoured play when required.

Anyway - thats prolly more than 2p worth, so I'll shutup now

------------------
________________
[SS-01]Coyote
Global Ambassador
Starslayer Tribe http://starslayer.gibbed.com/starslayer.htm
UIN: 39454087

"Abandon All Hope!"

 

[old.caro of MnO]

I think Coyote is starting to talk some sense into this thread!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
The job of the HEAVY O is to a) trash nme base, b) take control of GENS, c) distract Light Defence team or preferable all three of the above.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree.

Coordinated attacking is the key to a good offense, and that means that communication between all players, heavy and light alike, is crucial to success. The team which keeps the objective in mind will most likely come out on top- that is to say, destroying the enemy generator is not an end but a means, and the toughest heavy O will not win a match without light support.

Heavy O does require skill and a lot more practice than finding the right ski route. If you think it's easy, you're not playing with the right people.

I don't understand the heavy-O-phobia on this board. It doesn't ruin the game, it simply changes the tactics. There are plenty of ways to stop even a skilled heavy offense which have nothing to do with limiting team energy.

 

[Mongrol]

No, I`m talking about organised games. Having just read Godfleshes column I think I need to reiterate (whatever that means). I still maintain light offense takes more teamwork that heavy. Basicaly on most maps all heavies will take the same route, shotgun style and use brute force. Yes, 1 heavy will be rebutted easily and you should go in a gang, but there`s little teamwork skills involved in all heavy skiing over to the base along the same route one after another so you all get there roughly at the same time.
Godflesh maintains light needs less teamwork since 1 sneaky light can steal a flag. In organised games this is bullshit. 1 light will be squashed like a fly against any competent defence. It takes greater teamwork skills to make a light offense successful using distraction, shotgun and escape techniques to ensure a successful snatch and getaway. Anyone who thinks otherwise are either regular heavy offenders defending their Ego or are very telepathic lights that don`t even realise they are superhuman.

------------------
Mongrol,
Crunchy on the outside,
Chewy on the inside.

 

[old.Dauphin]

Categorising different roles and saying that some things are more "l33t" than others is, to use your words, bullshit.

You claim that light O (i.e. flag snatching) requires a lot more teamwork than heavy O (i.e. generator bashing), since light O requires "distraction, shotgun and escape techniques to ensure a successful snatch and getaway". You need that against a competent defence, that's true, but how much easier will that not be if the enemy's gens, invs and turrets are down? That's the point with heavy O.

 

[Mongrol]

I totally agree and I`m not dissing heavy O as a viable tactic. To win, you must use heavy O (or be a miracle worker). I`m saying that there`s isn`t as much teamwork required with a bunch of heavies to take out a base for reasons already explained.

------------------
Mongrol,
Crunchy on the outside,
Chewy on the inside.

 

[old.Dauphin]

I understand, I just wish that people would view at the teamwork in the whole. Everyone does his/her part, and everyone's effort is aimed at two main ojbectives - keeping one's own flag home and capping the enemy flag.

Take another example - the turret farmer. Now, ususally the turret farmer works alone, so one could say that "turret farming doesn't require any team work." Still - on certain maps turret farming is really important, and the guy who's doing that is in fact a teamplayer! That's why I think it's really dangerous to say that some aspects of the common goal are more demanding (teamplay-wise or skill-wise for that matter) than others. Everything has it's place, and the winning team is the team which recognizes this fact.

 

[old.Shelob]

Turret farmer eh?
I call them turret monkeys personally

but it is a very valuable contribution to a defence, yet not that good alone so it is a team oriented job.
One thing that heavy offence seems to cause is a game long inbalance. One teams initial heavy offence will succeed, blowing up gens and stations, the other team then cant kit up, is repairing stuff, can't send an effective co-ordinated offence anymore, enemy base becomes super-fortified, more enemies get thrown forward and the game decends into inv-less spawn lights desperatley trying to resist a constant stream of heavies and energy packed light flag runners. They cant get out of thier base door half the time, have no hope of getting the enemy flag, and basically its like a DM2 lockdown in qw where u respawn-die for the rest of the game which is the kind of thing that killed off qw. This is an exageration but u should get the idea of why for some people its made the game not so much fun.
The greatest threat to any game is not other games but the game itself and its community.

[BR] Shrapnel