Core Warrior Values

Will

/bin/su
Joined
Dec 17, 2003
Messages
5,259
So, US troops are going to get ethical training, or core warrior values as Mr Bush has phrased it.

Do these men really need a training course to not shoot unarmed civilians in the head, including woman and children? Jesus, these people have guns, they are supposed to be restoring law and order, and they've finally decided to train them not to burst into peoples houses and slaughter them?

I'm aware it is a difficult situation, there is a lot of pressure etc etc, but for fucks sake. And when your troops go on a murderous ramage (allegedly) do you a) cover it up, or b) court martial them?

And they thought UK troops having a fight with some locals was a big deal. It does appear that our troops have managed not to engage in any massacres, despite the pressure.

</rant>
 

DaGaffer

Down With That Sorta Thing
Joined
Dec 22, 2003
Messages
18,398
As has been pointed out, repeatedly, American troops haven't been trained for sustained garrison duty in hostile territory, especially the Marines. You've got a bunch of young men, who's training is very strongly based on loyalty to each other as much as their country (probably more so), and who are, let's be honest, not Rhodes Scholars, and then you put them into the kind of conflict where they rarely see their enemy, even when one of them dies. Massacres like this are not surprising. What's actually FAR more troubling is the inability of their superiors to control the situation and their subsequent attempts to hush it up.

I've also got a sneaking suspicion with this one that all isn't quite what it seems (ever watch Over There? There are some interesting similarities).
 

TdC

Trem's hunky sex love muffin
Joined
Dec 20, 2003
Messages
30,801
DaGaffer said:
What's actually FAR more troubling is the inability of their superiors to control the situation and their subsequent attempts to hush it up.

DING! Imo it's not really the grunts who should be given the course in ethics.
 

Escape

Can't get enough of FH
Joined
Dec 26, 2003
Messages
1,643
It's a little late for the US to start acknowledging "collateral damage".

Perhaps next year they'll accept their efforts to rebuild Iraq has been a total c0ck-up aswell. "Now where did those $Billions go..."
 

Dukat

Resident Freddy
Joined
Jan 10, 2004
Messages
5,396
As DaGaffer said, they're troops, they're not trained for garrison duty, what they are being told to do in Iraq is basically a policemans job, no disrespect to the police but a policeman and a soldier are totally different.

Soldiers are trained, basically, to kill. Especially the marines, they're supposed to be front line soldiers, more or less unthinking killing machines, they are taught to do thier job to the best of thier abilities and nothing more.

Giving them peacekeeping duty in a country they've basically just invaded is just stupid tbh.

Whoever thought up this "core warriors values" idea really doesnt know wtf they're on about. I would say its just another example of bush's stupidity but tbh I'm not convicned that he's got the intelligence to think up of anything, even if it is as stupid as this.
 

Furr

Can't get enough of FH
Joined
Dec 22, 2003
Messages
1,067
An army is like a axe, damaging and not accurate. A solidier is conditioned and trained for killing. Its him and his fellow soliders v the enemy. In Iraq the enemy could be anyone.

What you have is a force thats trained for war thats being asked to be a police force in a situation where they stand out from the local population and never knowing when they will be attacked with a hidden bomb.

Of course there are going to be instances like this, its a common feature of any occupation. The British Empire when soldiers massacred people in India, The Nazi's executing suspected French resistance fighters, the soviets etc etc, not all similar situations. But its a fact of war.

The Americans haven't had a good track record with occupation or setting up new goverments. One of their many many many mistakes in Iraq was removing everyone from power who was a Baath party member which was essential for being in top goverment positions. A crude comparision would be like coming to the UK occupying the country and removing anyone from their post who was a member of say Labour or Tory. removing the Police force, disbanding the army. Essetially shutting down the country. Of course its going to collapse.

//what Dukat said!
 

Aada

Part of the furniture
Joined
Mar 12, 2004
Messages
6,716
Soldiers when at war, and lets face it is still a fucking war out there.. its not a peace keeping mission at all because there isn't peace there not one ounce of it.

You think the poor guys who have been away from their families for 6 months are thinking about politics? no they are thinking about when are they going home.. they are thinking am i next? they are thinking about their friend that just got blown to shit by some iraqi bitch who can't see these people are trying to help them.


I'm sick of people falling for the media storys to make Soldiers look bad open your bloody eyes and stop reading what the papers are printing, i served abit of time in Iraq and its no tea party and the annoying part every day after a long days work was reading The Sun (wow i wouldn't wipe my fucking arse with this shit) and the bullshit storys they print time and time again, and the sad thing is that they don't know what the hell is going on either they take a few pictures talk to the iraqis (who hate us? god knows why?) who make aload of crap up about ''the british killed my family'' and print it.

You people then go out and read the paper on your cosey lunch break and go ''omg bastards!'', any soldier that was in my garrison wouldn't talk to any reporter at all because they knew whatever they said would be twisted into something entirely different from what they told the reporter.

Don't believe what you read or see on the internet the British chasing the iraqis down the street and bring them back for a beating story is just one reason why do don't believe what you see until the entire truthful version of the event is brought into light.
 

Escape

Can't get enough of FH
Joined
Dec 26, 2003
Messages
1,643

Former SAS member Ben Griffin
was allowed to leave the military after telling his commanding officer he was not prepared to return to Iraq because of what he believed were illegal acts being carried out by US forces.

Mr Griffin would never have considered deserting but says his views are shared by many others in the British military.

He told the BBC: "There's a lot of dissent in the Army about the legality of war and concerns that they're spending too much time there."

If the US had delivered on their promises, the Iraqis wouldn't be so pissed off.

Instead of the promised democracy, they have a divided country, fraudulent elections won by pro-US politicians, public security is worse than Saddam's era and the infrastructure is still in the rubble left by US bombers.

The C4 documentary "Iraq's Missing Billions" investigated the alleged rebuilding operation. Over $8 Billion has gone missing, it reached Iraq, it went to US contractors (Halliburton etc), then the trail goes dead.

The Iraqis lived in a developed country, which was bombed into a third world ghetto. The US is pumping their oil, tanks roam the streets and some assholes believe this is peacekeeping?

There are no soldiers in Iraq, only mercenaries. They deserve anything that comes to them.
 

throdgrain

FH is my second home
Joined
Dec 22, 2003
Messages
7,197
Aada said:
Soldiers when at war, and lets face it is still a fucking war out there.. its not a peace keeping mission at all because there isn't peace there not one ounce of it.

You think the poor guys who have been away from their families for 6 months are thinking about politics? no they are thinking about when are they going home.. they are thinking am i next? they are thinking about their friend that just got blown to shit by some iraqi bitch who can't see these people are trying to help them.


I'm sick of people falling for the media storys to make Soldiers look bad open your bloody eyes and stop reading what the papers are printing, i served abit of time in Iraq and its no tea party and the annoying part every day after a long days work was reading The Sun (wow i wouldn't wipe my fucking arse with this shit) and the bullshit storys they print time and time again, and the sad thing is that they don't know what the hell is going on either they take a few pictures talk to the iraqis (who hate us? god knows why?) who make aload of crap up about ''the british killed my family'' and print it.

You people then go out and read the paper on your cosey lunch break and go ''omg bastards!'', any soldier that was in my garrison wouldn't talk to any reporter at all because they knew whatever they said would be twisted into something entirely different from what they told the reporter.

Don't believe what you read or see on the internet the British chasing the iraqis down the street and bring them back for a beating story is just one reason why do don't believe what you see until the entire truthful version of the event is brought into light.

Well said Aada ! Escape, mercenaries, dont talk bollocks :/
 

Tom

I am a FH squatter
Joined
Dec 22, 2003
Messages
17,181
DaGaffer said:
the inability of their superiors to control the situation

This is exactly the problem. If members of your 'unit' are killed/injured by a roadside device, or sniper, rather than let the situation develop their superiors should instantly recall the entire unit to base, and deal with the emotional fallout there. Let them cool down.

Leaving them to their own devices is what creates situations like those described in the news.
 

Ch3tan

I aer teh win!!
Joined
Dec 22, 2003
Messages
27,318
Somehwere between the extreme and emotive views of Aada and Escape lies the truth, but I doubt we will ever know whats gone on and what will go on in Iraq for many years to come. Because lets face it, they are nowhere near being free or liberated.
 

Escape

Can't get enough of FH
Joined
Dec 26, 2003
Messages
1,643
Ch3tan said:
Somehwere between the extreme and emotive views of Aada and Escape lies the truth, but I doubt we will ever know whats gone on and what will go on in Iraq for many years to come. Because lets face it, they are nowhere near being free or liberated.

Extreme? I write it how it is. If you see it any clearer then let's hear it!
 

Ch3tan

I aer teh win!!
Joined
Dec 22, 2003
Messages
27,318
I disagree on the point where you say that the soldiers are merceneries. They are doing their jobs in a very difficult and hostile environment. At the end of the day soldiers are just the tools of their government, you cannont blame the tools for a bad job.

There are clearly dangerous attitudes on both sides in the continuing conflict (and it is still a conflict), and the US and UK are in a dangerous position, whatever they do they cannot win. Leave and be damned for ruining the country, stay and be damned for ruining the country.
 

rynnor

Rockhound
Moderator
Joined
Dec 26, 2003
Messages
9,353
Iraq is screwed either way really - as usual the US has acted with short sightedness and the belief that military might can bring world peace - a dichotomy if ever there was one.

I feel sorry for the servicemen stuck there - no-one wants em to be there and when they do finally withdraw the country will collapse into ethnic in-fighting like in the former yugoslav states.

It would have been better for everyone in the US/UK and Iraq if Saddam had been left in power - he would have died eventually and so would his regime - less civilians would have died and when the Iraqi people eventually did topple the regime they would have been their own masters.

Now theres occupation armies, civil war and puppet governments, law and order has broken down and the countries full of foreign terrorists flocking to strike at the hated USA - does anyone still think it was a good idea to invade?

And if anyone thinks this is hindsight I went on record predicting this before the war began - its been pretty obvious for a long time that no good would come of it.

We should get the armies out now and instead provide them with financial help in re-building but let their companies do the work.
 

Tom

I am a FH squatter
Joined
Dec 22, 2003
Messages
17,181
Escape said:
Extreme? I write it how it is. If you see it any clearer then let's hear it!

Mercenaries have a choice. They can choose not to go, and not to receive lots of money.

Recruits have no choice. They're paid the same for being in Iraq as they would be for being at home.

Clear enough?
 

nath

Fledgling Freddie
Joined
Dec 22, 2003
Messages
8,009
Tom said:
Recruits have no choice. They're paid the same for being in Iraq as they would be for being at home.

Everyone has a choice.
 

nath

Fledgling Freddie
Joined
Dec 22, 2003
Messages
8,009
Of course they do, they may well be court martialed as a result but that doesn't mean they have no choice. It's just not a pleasant one. However, this is something people should think about when they join the army.
 

throdgrain

FH is my second home
Joined
Dec 22, 2003
Messages
7,197
There I agree with you. They join the army thinking they will get a qualification in plumbing or something.
In fairness if I'd ever joined the army it would be to shoot very big guns, so i'd probably be alright :D
 

Dukat

Resident Freddy
Joined
Jan 10, 2004
Messages
5,396
Escape said:
If the US had delivered on their promises, the Iraqis wouldn't be so pissed off.

Instead of the promised democracy, they have a divided country, fraudulent elections won by pro-US politicians, public security is worse than Saddam's era and the infrastructure is still in the rubble left by US bombers.

The C4 documentary "Iraq's Missing Billions" investigated the alleged rebuilding operation. Over $8 Billion has gone missing, it reached Iraq, it went to US contractors (Halliburton etc), then the trail goes dead.

The Iraqis lived in a developed country, which was bombed into a third world ghetto. The US is pumping their oil, tanks roam the streets and some assholes believe this is peacekeeping?

There are no soldiers in Iraq, only mercenaries. They deserve anything that comes to them.

Sorry, but I cant let this pass.

I'm hoping to join the RAF as soon as my college results come through, I may well be sent to iraq, does this make me a mercenary? Does this mean that me and my squadmates deserve to get blown up?

I'm kinda speachless at such a patheticly ignorant and fucking short sighted comment tbh.

I know there is a risk of dying if I get sent to iraq, I fully accept this, but how the fuck do I deserve it? because I want to join the RAF?

Sorry but my immediate reaction to what you just wrote is one of utter fucking disgust, I really think you should reconsider what you said tbh.
 

TdC

Trem's hunky sex love muffin
Joined
Dec 20, 2003
Messages
30,801
throdgrain said:
I'd ever joined the army it would be to shoot very big guns, so i'd probably be alright :D


half the time you'd be wondering why you didn't run faster with your knife out ;)
 

Escape

Can't get enough of FH
Joined
Dec 26, 2003
Messages
1,643
Dukat, what would be your reasons for going to Iraq (if you were sent there)?
 

UrganNagru

Fledgling Freddie
Joined
Mar 4, 2004
Messages
186
Because it would be his job?
Sorry if I misinterpreted your post, but it gets on my tits when people have ago at the armed forces for politicians decisions.
 

nath

Fledgling Freddie
Joined
Dec 22, 2003
Messages
8,009
Presumably he'd be sent there as part of his RAF service. So not a direct choice on his part. On the other hand it seems as though he wouldn't be a consciencious objector and I guess that's what you have a problem with.
 

Dukat

Resident Freddy
Joined
Jan 10, 2004
Messages
5,396
Escape said:
Dukat, what would be your reasons for going to Iraq (if you were sent there)?

I'm joining the RAF for the following reasons:

1. I dont fancy the idea of a career in IT, being a pilot has always been my dream and the RAF is pretty much the only feasible way for me to realise that dream.

2. I see it as a good start in life - you get accomodation, food, you get to see the world and you get to see and do interesting things.

3. I should hopefully learn some good values from the forces - self discipline, confidence, the ability to work as part of a team. While I can do these things I feel that I will learn to do them better in the forces.

So I join the RAF, say I do get sent to Iraq. I have to choose between doing my job or saying no.

Doing my job entails going to a place and doing what I was trained to do, be it changing tyres, refueling jets or killing people, whatever I am told to do I will do, so long as it does not go against my principles. For example: If I get a direct order to fire on a child that I see as innocent, I will not obey the order. However, being sent to a place that may or may not be dangerous is something that I agreed to do in exchange for my trade and for my wage, so I will obey an order to go to iraq.

Saying no means disobeying a direct order to move to a country that may or may not be dangerous. I will be breaking the agreement to follow orders from my immediate superiors for no other reason that I dont like our destination. The conseqences of which leave me most probably with dishonourable discharge at the best, at worst prison (or a firing squad? lol). This means that I lose my chance to achieve my dream to be a pilot forever, I waste the RAF's time and some other kid gets trained up in my place to do exactly the same thing. Not to mention the fact that I'd bring shame to myself for the rest of my life.

There is absolutely no valid reason at all for me to disobey an order to relocate to iraq. Political implications are not something that I should think about, my job, the job I have been trained to do and the job that I agreed to do in exchange for the training, the accomodation, the food, not to mention the wage, is pretty much the main thing that I will be thinking about.

So basically, to sum it up, and without trying to be over-dramatic, my reason for going there would be the exact same reason that the soldiers on D-Day had for running headlong into artillery and machinegun fire, the same reason that the soldiers before them in the battle of the somme had for "going over the top" of thier trench and charging into enemy fire, the same reason my dad had for going to nothern ireland during the troubles when he was in the army:

"Because thats my job"

Does this mean I deserve to die?
 

throdgrain

FH is my second home
Joined
Dec 22, 2003
Messages
7,197
TdC said:
half the time you'd be wondering why you didn't run faster with your knife out ;)

Actually made me laugh out loud :D

I do like big guns though ! Dukat, I agree with everything you've said, bloody good luck to you :)
 

Dukat

Resident Freddy
Joined
Jan 10, 2004
Messages
5,396
TdC said:
half the time you'd be wondering why you didn't run faster with your knife out ;)

heh reminds me of fps_doug;

"I think I should just join the army, i mean its basically just fps but with better graphics! but what happens if I get lag out there? I'll be dead!! and I hear there's no respawn in RL!" :D

throdgrain said:
Actually made me laugh out loud

I do like big guns though ! Dukat, I agree with everything you've said, bloody good luck to you :)

Cheers throd, good to know not everyones against me :)

I've had hippies having a go at me on the college bus a couple of times so far, one lot was on the verge of getting T-shirts printed and drawing up plaquards lol

I guess everyone has thier own opinion, normally I'm not fussed, but hearing people say that soldiers in Iraq deserve it just kinda sickens me tbh.
 

throdgrain

FH is my second home
Joined
Dec 22, 2003
Messages
7,197
No way is every one against you, just a few people with more opinion than experience :)
 

Trem

Not as old as he claims to be!
Moderator
Joined
Dec 22, 2003
Messages
9,293
You have made a good choice Dukat, not sure how old you are but it seems a mature choice and one that your life will be better for.

I passed the tests to join the RAF when I was younger but didn't join because of a crying girlfriend who wanted me to stay..............she finished with me not long after.


So what I am trying to say is - women are twats :eek:
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Top Bottom