Conservative Party in the doldrums

[Nos]

John Smith was the best thing to happen to the labour party, didnt he have a heart attack or something, anyway, i dont trust tony blair to run the government, i dont trust anyone to do it, but you have to admit if you, like me, were at school when the tories were in power then you could never go there again, the labour government aint done that bad, its not normal labour party values to just blindly do what the americans say (the tories did it as well lots of times) if you take the iraq debarcle out of the equation then labour have my thumbs up, thats labour, not tony blair, coz there are 400 (iirc) labour mp's, its not just down to one bloke doing wtf he wants.

Clearly when the tories were in power they made full stops illegal.

 

[Xtro]

UKIP are not racist they are nationalist.

Dunno if that was in response to my own post Yuck but I said they are xenophobes, didn't mention the racial card.

I wish this thread could be continued in the pub where it would be much more enjoyable, especially when Skaghead Doris comes in and sidles up to the nearest young lad and whispers "wanta fuckmyazz for a tenner? eh?".

 

[Munkey]

diddnt John Smith make beer?

then again, judging on our past leader's performances, a cardboard cut-out couldnt do much worse.

 

[~Yuckfou~]

Dunno if that was in response to my own post Yuck

'twas in reply to a comment by maxi.

 

[Xtro]

'twas in reply to a comment by maxi.

Merci

 

[rynnor]

Lib Dems

I always thought they were reasonable but whenever I read about what they want to do in any detail it scares me away.

Examples:

Local Income Tax instead of Council Tax - fine if you dont earn much but it would mean that the South East pays for Northern councils which is a little odd...

Safe routes to school - with 'safe' pavements, traffic calming and adults on hand - sounds a lot of effort when you could just bring in school buses and remove the school run congestion in one hit?

Non-violent criminals to do 'tough community work' instead of Jail - yes - send bill the burglar round to paint old peoples houses... Plus if anyone is injured during this work they can sue the government for a fat payoff so everyones happy...

Proportional representation - produces volatile coalition governments that tend to fall apart a lot like in Italy.

More congestion charging... More Regional Assemblies (yeah those are worthwhile).

Source http://www.libdems.org.uk/documents/policies/Manifestos/Pre-manifesto04.pdf

 

[dysfunction]

I wish this thread could be continued in the pub where it would be much more enjoyable, especially when Skaghead Doris comes in and sidles up to the nearest young lad and whispers "wanta fuckmyazz for a tenner? eh?".

I second that wish.

Nothing like a political debate after imbibing a bit of alcohol...

 

[SilverHood]

What I never understood about British politics (not being British), is why don't peolple do something about it?

In Denmark, if the politcal apathy reached the levels it has over here, someone would find a hundred or so like minded people, and start their own political party. With that would come publicity, and the goverments (usually a 2 party coaltion running the show) have no choice but to take action in favour, or dismiss them. In dismissing them, they will loose the votes associated with the issue(s), and so usually end up coming to an agreement, and the issue is resolved... party disbands / goes dormant, until something else needs doing, and it starts over again.

I'm just glad I can't vote, because I honestly wouldn't want to make a choice of lesser evils. Though I'd happily vote whoever in local elections to make sure the Tory's don't come to power.

 

[rynnor]

What I never understood about British politics (not being British), is why don't peolple do something about it?

The main problem is that we are basically locked into a two party system by a self fulfilling prophecy that a vote for anyone else is a wasted vote. Its never been a system that has represented everyone but its at a particularly bad point at the moment with both main parties fighting over the middle ground.

In the past there has always been a left wing and a right wing choice...

 

[Louster]

The main problem is that we are basically locked into a two party system by a self fulfilling prophecy that a vote for anyone else is a wasted vote.

For God's sake, I hear this ALL the time, and I have never, ever understood how anyone can think this. Does no-one realise how completely illogical it is? Every vote is exactly the same, and it matters not at ALL whether you vote for a "big" party or not. Christ, vote for who you want to run the country, not who you think WILL run the country.

 

[rynnor]

For God's sake, I hear this ALL the time, and I have never, ever understood how anyone can think this.

Its the nature of our election system - only the winning votes have any effect - in theory you could have 49% of the votes and still get no MP's...

The point of voting is to try and shape the future Parliament - why vote if your candidate has absolutely no chance - this is the only good part of Proportional representation.

 

[Tom]

why vote if your candidate has absolutely no chance

I think you missed the point. Its people who have been indocrinated into a 3 party system who can't seem to get their head around the idea that they don't have to vote for any of them. They can vote for an independant MP who is more likely to focus his/her efforts on the constituents, and doesn't have to worry about toeing the party line.

Want politicians to make a difference? Vote for the candidate who offers you the best deal, and not for a party that tries to be all things to all men. If that means in a predominently ethnic area that you're going to vote for a black independant candidate, rather than the prim and proper blue-rinse, then fine, because thats what makes a difference, not party policy and the front page of the Sun/Telegraph/Mail.

 

[JingleBells]

We need to have an australian like law where everyone has to vote, there is of course an "I don't want to vote for anyone" option, but you have to at least make an effort. I think that making people have to turn up to vote would at least make them think to vote.

As for MPs, my home constituency (Wyre Forest) is the only constituency in the UK with an Independant MP (Dr. Richard Taylor) who stood trying to save my local hospital (Kidderminster Hospital). Of course he stands no chance of saving it (most important services have already been moved to Worcester), but we had quite a high turn out in 2001 as none of the other parties made any effort to stop the closure (apart from the liberals (not lib dems) who are just hippies).
The "Health Concern" party (who sort of represent Dr. Taylor) also got in control of our council around the same time. Unfortunately they are bunch of w**kers who didn't know how to run the council, and were promptly voted out last year and replaced with the conservatives.

So if there are independant MPs standing for something the whole community feel strongly about then there might be a chance of them winning. However, i don't think that this really helps overall, especially when we have the current dreadful government. While they were busy closing the hospitals at home, and not giving our schools any extra funding (they think we're a bunch of rural yokels), the constituencys in Durham, that both Blair and Alan Milburn (then health secretary) represent, were having nice new hospitals built, and plenty of investment.

 

[Ormorof]

surely the whole idea of a democratic system is that you vote for who you want, not for who you think is going to win? if everyone votes for who they THINK is going to win then of course they are going to win? if everyone who thinks like you change, and vote for the one they WANT to win (even if its an independent candidate) then surely the independent candidate will win?

or am i missing something in the "democratic" process?

can hardly call it democratic if you only have 2 choices (labour, conservative, then the smaller parties like lib dems, UKIP, green party and BNP)

 

[Louster]

Its the nature of our election system - only the winning votes have any effect - in theory you could have 49% of the votes and still get no MP's...

The point of voting is to try and shape the future Parliament - why vote if your candidate has absolutely no chance - this is the only good part of Proportional representation.

Because, by definition, your vote then gives your candidate one more vote than "absolutely no chance", and hence NOT absolutely no chance. Plus, your vote carries exactly the same weight as everyone else's, and exactly the same weight no matter who you vote for, so you might just as well say that clearly there's no point voting for a candidate who's a dead cert - after all, your vote won't actually make any difference if they're going to get in anyway.

As for "only the winning votes have any effect", the point is that no vote is "winning". It's not a competition to guess who'll be next in charge. The only way this system has any merit is if people vote for who they want in.

 

[nath]

It's the same thinking that stops people recycling - "well, no one else is bothering, so why should I? It's a drop in the ocean". Every little helps </tesco>

 

[Frizz]

It's the same thinking that stops people recycling - "well, no one else is bothering, so why should I? It's a drop in the ocean". Every little helps </tesco>

Even if you don't have a clue about politics? I can't stand political debates, mainly because they're dull, and i know nothing about them.

I look at all these political parties and i see nothing. I'm aware of political alignments, but i'm still unclear on what each party has to offer. Tbh it's too much extra work to find out.

I do like this new 24hour pub thingy though. Whoever thought of that one should have a beer on me.

 

[nath]

Well, I do think that we all should take the time to understand politics enough to know who we want to vote for. However I can't act all holier than thou because apathy stops me from doing it too, but I feel guilty about it! :\

 

[Will]

Read a newspaper every day for a week. You'll understand politics then*.





*Sort of. And if you tell me which newspaper you are going to read, I'll be able to tell you which party you are going to vote for. And I mean a proper newspaper. Something without naked women, and phrases like "Its political correctness gone mad".

 

[Vae]

The best description of who reads what paper is still the one from Yes Prime Minister (one of the best and certainly most intelligent comedies bar none):

The Times is read by the people who run the country.
The Daily Mirror is read by the people who think they run the country.
The Guardian is read by the people who think they ought to run the country.
The Morning Star is read by the people who think the country ought to be run by another country.
The Independent is read by people who don't know who runs the country but are sure they're doing it wrong.
The Daily Mail is read by the wives of the people who run the country.
The Financial Times is read by the people who own the country.
The Daily Express is read by the people who think the country ought to be run as it used to be run.
The Daily Telegraph is read by the people who still think it is their country.
And the Sun's readers don't care who runs the country providing she has big tits.

(From A Conflict of Interest, Yes Prime Minister)

 

[rynnor]

It's the same thinking that stops people recycling - "well, no one else is bothering, so why should I? It's a drop in the ocean". Every little helps </tesco>

Actually what stops people recycling is the lack of recycling schemes in the UK - plus even where there are schemes they only accept an incredibly limited range of items - thats why we recycle so little...

 

[nath]

Actually what stops people recycling is the lack of recycling schemes in the UK - plus even where there are schemes they only accept an incredibly limited range of items - thats why we recycle so little...

Pish posh, there's plenty of places that recycle - just not necessarily ones that pick it all up for you.

 

[rynnor]

Because, by definition, your vote then gives your candidate one more vote than "absolutely no chance", and hence NOT absolutely no chance.

Most candidates outside the main 3 dont even get their deposits back - I agree with your sentiment but in the current political reality it is a 2 horse race - I wish it wasn't but most people in the UK are bored by politics and just vote on the basis of "I always vote for X" or "Y seems sincere" etc. etc.

It's not a competition to guess who'll be next in charge. The only way this system has any merit is if people vote for who they want in.

But it is a competition to see who will govern the country - if neither of the main parties has policies that fit with your beliefs you actually have very limited options. You can A. vote for a small party knowing that currently they wont win (which in part means that you make the overall result look slightly more legitimate and democratic) or you can B. not vote or spoil your paper - in this case you are marking your distaste for the impalatable options - neither option is perfect...

 

[rynnor]

Pish posh, there's plenty of places that recycle - just not necessarily ones that pick it all up for you.

Well if you are referring to the many councils who have renamed their local dumps as 'Recycling centres' then you are correct - if you actually look at how much of what goes into these 'recycling centres' actually gets recycled you would be in for a suprise.

Aside from glass/paper, tin cans and some green waste pretty much everything else is destined for landfill - recycling is tackling the problem at the wrong point. It makes a lot more sense to beat manufacturers who use too much packaging, encourage the design of upgradeable goods etc. etc.

 

[Ormorof]

Most candidates outside the main 3 dont even get their deposits back - I agree with your sentiment but in the current political reality it is a 2 horse race - I wish it wasn't but most people in the UK are bored by politics and just vote on the basis of "I always vote for X" or "Y seems sincere" etc. etc.



But it is a competition to see who will govern the country - if neither of the main parties has policies that fit with your beliefs you actually have very limited options. You can A. vote for a small party knowing that currently they wont win (which in part means that you make the overall result look slightly more legitimate and democratic) or you can B. not vote or spoil your paper - in this case you are marking your distaste for the impalatable options - neither option is perfect...

but if the "main" parties has policies that dont fit with enough people's belief then surely the small party stands a chance?

voting for who YOU want in isnt just about getting what you want, or the best possible deal, it also makes the people who did win (that you didnt vote for) aware that not everyone will be happy with their policies, they may even be willing to compromise (to get more voters for next time )

 

[dysfunction]

Pish posh, there's plenty of places that recycle - just not necessarily ones that pick it all up for you.

Really??

Then why has my local recycling center (read as dump) gone from have many bins for sorting your rubbish into glass, paper etc to having 1 single compacting bin...just throw everything in that!

So much for recycling!

 

[Munkey]

perhaps they recycled the bins

 

[nath]

Really??

Then why has my local recycling center (read as dump) gone from have many bins for sorting your rubbish into glass, paper etc to having 1 single compacting bin...just throw everything in that!

I''m sure there's somewhere else you can do it, though it may not be that local. My point was that it just takes more effort than most people are willing to give.