Common beliefs vs. actual data

[Ottar]

Common beliefs
----------------------

1. Mercenaries (albion and hibernian light tanks in general) are and have always been weak.

2. Berserkers were grossly overpowered and are now ok.

3. Savages are now grossly overpowered and incoming nerfs in 1.65 are justifiend and possibly insufficient.


Actual data
----------------

Following table is based on current duskwave data, as there is no access to overall class totals. I added up totals of top 10 rp holders in each class.

Class total rp last week rp
mercenary 26,338,224 931,924
berserker 15,024,742 113,645
savage 13,344,996 1,066,593

What we see there is:

1. "Weak" mercenaries holding roughly the same total rp's as berserkers and savages together.

2. "Overpowered" savages making roughly same rp's last week as "underpowered" mercenaries.

3. Currnently "OK" and formerly "overpowered" berserkers making roughly one tenth the rp's last week of either mercenaries or savages while having 57% of total rp's of mercenaries.

Ottar

 

[old.linnet]

Originally posted by Ottar

What we see there is:

1. "Weak" mercenaries holding roughly the same total rp's as berserkers and savages together.

2. "Overpowered" savages making roughly same rp's last week as "underpowered" mercenaries.

3. Currnently "OK" and formerly "overpowered" berserkers making roughly one tenth the rp's last week of either mercenaries or savages while having 57% of total rp's of mercenaries.

The only point I see here is that Mid gank groups currently prefer savages. Alb gank groups use mercenaries. That doesn't mean that berserkers couldn't do a decent job in those groups. I thought we had seen logs which showed their damage was now on par with the other realms' light tanks?

 

[faderullan]

Ottar: This only shows mercenery people who stuck with their char for a long time.

If i never made a mercenery those numbers would be different.

Even pe mercenery totals have more rp then savage top10 together. Does this mean anything. No. If you want real stats look at all servers together and then show us numbers.

 

[old.windforce]

you have:

1 lies
2 big lies
3 utter big lies
4 statistics

- less savage make more then mercs
-mercs include Dreami and Fader who make like 300K rps a week which makes statistics regarding the class kinda BS
-all strong players who had Bezerkers rerolled Savage

but i agree zerkers need some love / savage need some toning down to bring back some balance in mid tanks

 

[Pixie.Pebr]

You know that RP's (in this case) is just a measure of amount of time spent in Emain by a certain class, not a measure of how good a class is?

Mercs do lots of RP's because there are lots of Mercs being rolled.
A measure of the class' time in Emain.
More of the class equals more total hours spent RvR'ing for the class.

Zerks are ok now, only reason they aren't making the RP's anymore is people fell to common disbelief that they are now gimped and stopped playing them.
Again a measure of time spent by the class RvR'ing.

Savages... not sure here.
I see quite a few of them about, has to mean the players of them stink ^^

 

[dr_doctor]

Originally posted by Pixie.Pebr
You know that RP's (in this case) is just a measure of amount of time spent in Emain by a certain class, not a measure of how good a class is?

Mercs do lots of RP's because there are lots of Mercs being rolled.
A measure of the class' time in Emain.
More of the class equals more total hours spent RvR'ing for the class.

Zerks are ok now, only reason they aren't making the RP's anymore is people fell to common disbelief that they are now gimped and stopped playing them.
Again a measure of time spent by the class RvR'ing.

Savages... not sure here.
I see quite a few of them about, has to mean the players of them stink ^^

1. Ottar stated that he took the top 10 Mercs, not every single merc.
2. Why are ppl rolling mercs now? FOTM ofc.
3. Zerks are not ok. Destroyed them utterly along with sb's.
4. Savages, well, powerful, but they should be as well.
5. Thanes, delete the sodding class ffs.

 

[Sagba]

Originally posted by Pixie.Pebr
You know that RP's (in this case) is just a measure of amount of time spent in Emain by a certain class, not a measure of how good a class is?

I was just about to say the same thing

 

[faderullan]

Originally posted by Ottar
Class total rp last week rp
mercenary 26,338,224 931,924
berserker 15,024,742 113,645
savage 13,344,996 1,066,593

Me + Dreami last week = ~780k

So all the rest only made ~150k together

So if me and dreami wouldnt play, mercenery would be a shit class according to you?

 

[)nick(]

Common belief:

Savages are overpowered

Actual data:

Savages are overpowered

 

[Pixie.Pebr]

Originally posted by dr_doctor
2. Why are ppl rolling mercs now? FOTM ofc.

Yes. And your point was?

Originally posted by dr_doctor
4. Savages, well, powerful, but they should be as well.

Why should they be powerful?
Not saying I disagree with you, but your argument is a bit... thin.
Wan't to avoid a nerf, then give reasons why it shouldn't be nerfed.

 

[)nick(]

If savages were erased I think the mid melee group would have an even tougher time against good alb melee groups.

As it stands now with RAs up albs > mid > hib. With RAs down mid > alb > hib. Without savages it would always be alb > mid > hib.

<edit: This is purely based on the current situation on prydwen whereby albs have all str relics and mid has power relics>

 

[old.mattshanes]

I am inactive on mine at the moment but i assure you mercenaries are definetly not the best of the 3 even though they are good in rvr(i did a few times get over 250k a week but i can't be arsed anymore :/).Yeah berserkers destroyed now they do same damage as bms/mercs

 

[staffzor]

IMO people are rolling mercs now because they have all had enough of being a class without determination, and cheap RAs that can play and get into groups easily. Albion has only 2 classes that have access to this.

So it is either arsemen or mercs, mercs being the ones with more "fluff" to them and also faster swings where as polearsemen hybrids have to double spec and the shield will rarely be used (in 8v8 rvr). Not to mention if you "whiff" with a pole, it is just devastating

 

[old.Hardbein]

How I see it, Savages (1.62) need the somehow uber dmg to be able to compeete with i.e PEs team (Assisting dmg output combined with superior defence: sos/bof). Mid needs some kind of uberness when fighting uber RAs.

Remove SoS/BoF and i totaly agree savages need a dmg output nerf. But atm and post 1.65 thats not the case.

Assisting a target (mid) can be hell, combined with root/mezz/snare, specially when the target has SOS and will most likely outrun u before its dead. Killing a target with bof is then even harder since it has uber melee resist. Only way to kill such a target is to have uber/fast dmg, before it outrun/gets healed.

Assisting under SoS (for albs) makes it somehow easier. Where all tanks can catch up with the target, snare/root/CC can just be ignored and will not intefeer with the killing prosess. As long as albs kill the oponents support classes within the first 30 secs of the fight, they will win. In the end of SOS on det4 tanks any CC casted on em will have expired.

I can asure u PE have given EL some real hard "homework" with their new team, but were in the making of the counter-setup and tactics. We will be back

 

[uma_thurman]

Suppose you buy one lottery ticket and you win. Do you also infer that you will win every time you buy a ticket?

 

[Ottar]

> If i never made a mercenery those numbers would be different. Even pe
> mercenery totals have more rp then savage top10 together. Does this mean
> anything. No. If you want real stats look at all servers together and then
> show us numbers.

What you are saying here is a) Top X charts lack meaning as they reflect only extremes and b) for overall class balance, one should look on data of all servers combined.

In that, you are right. For overall class balance you would need total rp's and last week rp's of -all- chars on all three classes. That data is simply not available.

The numbers above however -do- apply to high end RvR on Prydwen.

> 1 lies
> 2 big lies
> 3 utter big lies
> 4 statistics

Yes, what I presented was 4

> -all strong players who had Bezerkers rerolled Savage

What you did was 3

Ottar

 

[froler-mid]

nerf mercs imo

 

[froler-mid]

Originally posted by old.mattshanes
Yeah berserkers destroyed now they do same damage as bms/mercs

ye, too bad they got studded and a worthless "ratmode-KILL ME PLS"

 

[old.mattshanes]

Originally posted by froler-mid
ye, too bad they got studded and a worthless "ratmode-KILL ME PLS"

Yeah and our dirt tricks are uber in group rvr make every single quad hit fumble

 

[froler-mid]

Originally posted by old.mattshanes
Yeah and our dirt tricks are uber in group rvr make every single quad hit fumble

well, DT sounds better then " HI IM A RAT WITH KEWL GFX AND I LOST LOADS OF AF" thing ;dd

 

[old.mattshanes]

Hahaha lose af in ratmode?lol keke xD

I played all 3 light tanks, ratmode DOES NOT lose AF, however it does lose defensive abilities such as evade and parry hence because of the crit can be upto 99%.All 3 seem fairly balanced now, zerk has the weakest defence but they always dual swing so can always have haste effect whereas bms/mercs do not.

 

[froler-mid]

kk, i was worong, dunno why i thought he lost af(was something bout defensive stuff .. ) ;ddd

 

[old.mattshanes]

Bm has best ability, triple weld rocks xD compared to the other 2

 

[Coren]

Well done on posting data that has absolutely no relevance to the mentioned common 'beliefs'! :great:

 

[kalgarn]

Originally posted by Pixie.Pebr
Zerks are ok now, only reason they aren't making the RP's anymore is people fell to common disbelief that they are now gimped and stopped playing them.

actually zerkers stopped playing their zerk because they coulden't get groups anymore,not because they felt they were gimped.wich is pretty normal,if there is a lighttank class in your realm that's better in all ways then your class it's obvious that people will pick the other class over yours.
but ofc this aint right,all zerkers who rolled a savage did this because they are lame and are fotm hoppers...

 

[ilum]

If Albion had savages noone would think about rolling a Mercenary. A lot would even reroll. I think this works the same way in Midgard, and hence Berserkers are not very active.

Is studded armour and evade 3 really that bad compared to evade1 and chain? In theory, you'll evade 10% more but with 8% less absorption. So you'll take less damage in general. Also, light tank defense is rarely about taking a beating - the casters and healers will be targeted first. Light tanks might get targeted for a slam, and thats when you much rather have a larger chance of evading it and keep beating on your target instead of having a low chance of evading and getting hit for 8% less.

You dont have BOF and SOS no, but you do have PR which is a good RA. And in some set-ups you walk around with as much as 4 healing classes. Midgard's CC wear chain, Albion's wear cloth. You hae insta AE mezz and AE stun on your CC. Just to let you know that you do have some advantages that Albion doesnt have. Whether it's balanced I really cant say tho. Who knows.

 

[dr_doctor]

Originally posted by Pixie.Pebr
Yes. And your point was?

Why should they be powerful?
Not saying I disagree with you, but your argument is a bit... thin.
Wan't to avoid a nerf, then give reasons why it shouldn't be nerfed.

FOTM=Overpowered dorks with to much time.
Savages should be powerful because we got shite RA's, hence we need to compensate for it.

So...thet nerf savages (within a millisecond Mythictime), but they leave Infs untouched and boosting Mincers while spending 3-4 minutes on Skalds and Thanes.

Pissing me off.

 

[Xeanor]

Originally posted by Coren
Well done on posting data that has absolutely no relevance to the mentioned common 'beliefs'! :great:

 

[Tasos]

1. Mercenaries (albion and hibernian light tanks in general) are and have always been weak.
k!
merces were always weak
hmz what game r u playing?
i think it's a pitty..u play daoc for 2+years and still dunno anything?
zerkers are not ok atm..they were supposed to be midgard damage dealers 250-300 isn't damage for a zerker imo as for merces..well they were always good but it's stupid that they boosted them so much.Now if u don't know anything about merces/BMs go read imo.

 

[Tasos]

Originally posted by old.mattshanes
I am inactive on mine at the moment but i assure you mercenaries are definetly not the best of the 3 even though they are good in rvr(i did a few times get over 250k a week but i can't be arsed anymore :/).Yeah berserkers destroyed now they do same damage as bms/mercs

Matt...zerkers do same damage as merces?are u dreaming?
merc hits twice as fast for same damage+200 dam DD every 2 mins? :x