Combat system - how would you design it?

[Korax]

If you could decide how the combat system would be in your favourite MMORPG, how would you design it? Im talking about general aspects, such as the speed of the comat, interuptable casting, healing power etc.

In my case, this can be how I hope WAR turns out.

Mythic did so many things right with the daoc combat system. Its about the only reason daoc is one of my favourite games ever. Since we all play daoc, Im gonna compare alot of it to daoc.

Overall speed: I love the combat fast paced. You can kill a person in daoc in 2 seconds, yet a battle can last many minutes between decent groups. This makes every move you and your team mates do, vital. If you miss a step, it can cause your group to lose the battle. In WAR I still hope the combat is fast paced, but a tad slower. When a person is nuked to death in a second, it doesn't give your healers much chance to heal. 20-30% slower would do wonders I think.

Assisting: To assist or to not assist. If assist was removed from daoc, it would help for the instant deaths I just talked about. However, using voice communication, you would do nearly as well, meaning PUG's would get more owned by set groups then they already are. And this trend is certainly something that happens in all pvp games. However, build in some >decent< voice comm into the game and there you have it.

Casting: An important part of daoc's combat system is that you are dependent on teamwork to succeed. And casting is an important part of that.
Interuption:A caster that is getting damaged in daoc, cant do much. He has to be protected by his allies. Brilliant concept. A caster that is left by himself is deadly.
Casting range: Range of spells is important in many ways, and there are pro's and con's with both short range and long range. Long range is defo the winner in my book though. You get alot better overview of what is happening in the fight and with caster being unable to cast when getting hit, short range would just be stupid.


Healing power: In games like wow, healers are useless in pvp. You cant even keep up one single tank that is being focused alive, much less one group. You got shit range and stand in the middle of the fray. Also, you can keep yourself alive, so noone needs to take care of you. As a healer, you end up soloing in the group. Blows.
One healer left alone in daoc can keep a full group up for quite a while, just the way I like it. Healer getting hit, is dependant on group members. Everyone can help everyone to help everyone = good gameplay. The group becomes one.

Tank roles: In daoc, heavy tanks has to be very good in order to be a successful guard for casters and healers, but if it works; it WORKS. With "my" combat system being slower, this should be a easier job to do. In daoc being a guarder is difficult to learn, and very difficult to master, while most other classes are easy - moderate to learn and difficult to master.
A light tank in daoc, has to click assist and style. Without an assist button, its suddenly much more challenging. Should have more options, such as ability do do dmg+effects in pbae.

Crowd control: should be important, but not alpha omega. Compared to daoc CC, it should generally last shorter and be possible to resist (giving you some sort of immunity timer).

Group size: 5? Easy to put together, less waiting. However, you would probably end up having just one healer and with this system, that would leave too much up to chance. 6, 7, 8? All good. The higher, the harder to put together, but also more possibileties and better gameplay. 10? Too big, getting hard to get a good overview. Hard to get together.

Misc: Wow did great things for mmorpg pvp. It showed us how it should not be (im not saying it cant be fun, im just saying it sucks). Simple things like possibilty to customize your UI to no end, made things like "auto trinket" and "click one button and heal\cure or w\e automatically" and "see what your enemies are casting, so that you dont need any skills to play the game addon".

The endurance concept, leave it in. Stick, leave it in, expand attack radius to solve out of view problems.

Classes: Like daoc, tons of options. WAR as it seems now will have 24 classes witch is more then I could ever hope for. Another good part is that the different factions has different classes wtihon one archtype. One important part though is to have them as balanced as possible. It took mythic many years to make wizards usable, I bet it took them 5 minutes of actual work to fix (you know what I mean).

Reward: Why play an MMO when you can play CS? Correcto, because at the end of the day, your character has progressed and you get something back from playing. Make more rewards, access to places, abileties, gear and more.

My brain just stopped working so I'll leave it at that for now. I am aware that its almost all daoc, but thats becasue they did so much right and I have too bad imagination to imagine anything better.

Made this post mostly because I noticed that the forums has very few interesting posts these days, and this is my wholehearted attemt to create one.
Any opinions?

 

[DocWolfe]

I hope they remove "I win stuns"

 

[Darzil]

Assisting - The trick is to reduce the BENEFIT of assisting, so diminishing returns from multiple foes attacking one in PvP. Whether or not there is an /assist command or voice comms to enable attacking that person is then irrelevant.

Darzil

 

[cHodAX]

No stuns for a start, also remove overpowered charges etc from items. 'If you don't spec it, you don't get it' would be my motto, too many twinks just complicate the game anyway and make it too easy for people to become overpowered.

 

[RS|Phil]

If you're basing this on the daoc melee system then I reckon rear styles should be given an increased range or just increase the range of all styles when they're hitting from behind. Kiting is just stupid and I'm sure there's a lot of tanks that can spend a whole fight trying to take down targets who just run round in circles.

 

[Phantomby]

I personally think you skipped past one of the defining aspects of DAOC's combat system which is reactive styles. (the main reason i play daoc over any other game)
Many mmo's use timer based styles so its simply a matter of squeezing out xxx damage over xx number of seconds an hope you outdamage your opponent.
The high growth rates on reactive styles (as well as the endurance benefit) means that same 2 classes, one spamming anytime the other using all reactionary chains will be leagues apart in terms of performance.

love the style queue system which is what makes the h-h combat so appealing. It feels like im trying to anticipate my opponents attacks and as soon as i deliver a style im working out what it is ive delivered and what chain i should be moving onto...feels more skill based than mashing buttons 1, then 2 then 3 then repeating.

If WaR lacks this it will feel very second rate to me.

Interupt system works fine (some tweaks needed), spell damage is slightly op, relics are a bad idea or should make minimal difference so not to throw the balance out so much (talking 5-10% max bonus).

Group sizes...i would like to see groups of 4-5 max, although im not sure if this would make group set ups more or less varied, i think this depends on class structure, with more overlapping skills, you would have more varience, without then you definatly need specific classes and everyone would run the same which would be pants.

in the words of one of the fantastic4....flame on!

 

[RS|Phil]

Yeh the problem with the relics is that it's not just 20% damage if you think about it. Ok, a caster does 20% more damage to a target, so the healer in the other group has to expend 20% more power to heal him up, whereas the caster without the relics does normal damage, but the healer in the relic holding group also heals for 20% more hp. So it's like 60% bonus.

 

[eggy]

Yeh the problem with the relics is that it's not just 20% damage if you think about it. Ok, a caster does 20% more damage to a target, so the healer in the other group has to expend 20% more power to heal him up, whereas the caster without the relics does normal damage, but the healer in the relic holding group also heals for 20% more hp. So it's like 60% bonus.

Hmm no...

I heal for 790 without crit. If a caster does, say, 650 damage instead of 500 per nuke it doesn't make any difference to the amount of power I'll expend to heal that person. That 790 heal (without crit) costs under 2% power (around 1.8%). A 20% increase in damage won't require 10 extra 790 heals.

 

[Serbitar]

rock paper scissors

you would only need 3 qb buttons xD

 

[Puppet]

Hmm no...

I heal for 790 without crit. If a caster does, say, 650 damage instead of 500 per nuke it doesn't make any difference to the amount of power I'll expend to heal that person. That 790 heal (without crit) costs under 2% power (around 1.8%). A 20% increase in damage won't require 10 extra 790 heals.

That's when you are consistently over-healing obviously.

A 790 heal for 2% power tho.. wtf?! Are clerics heals better then druid heals besides the instants (where cleric ones are better, tho at higher spec).

 

[RS|Phil]

Hmm no...

I heal for 790 without crit. If a caster does, say, 650 damage instead of 500 per nuke it doesn't make any difference to the amount of power I'll expend to heal that person. That 790 heal (without crit) costs under 2% power (around 1.8%). A 20% increase in damage won't require 10 extra 790 heals.

I was generalising, obviously, but the heals do gain benefit from relics so how can it be wrong? Ok the exact % may not work out like that - there's too many factors - but having 20% to power has more effect that merely having 20% harder nukes.

 

[Kagato]

You have to generalise really,

but from the best games i've played i'd like certain features to be there such as :

Generally fast paced combat, i.e fights lasting on average a minute or so for 1 on 1 fights perhaps longer for large scale combat.

Stealth - The stealth system i'd like to see done in a Predator style, stealth classes are completely invisible when stationary but as they move they will become a faint out line with light reflecting of them, still hard to make out but you can see the movement related to how fast they are trying to go.

Spellcasting - interruptable, but not garunteed to be interrupted, i.e there is a chance to interupt but it is a chance, they may be lucky and still cast through it. Obviously the type of spells and their power will be a factor in the chance to cast through combat.

Stronger abilities will be on a timer such as in Lineage 2, ranging from a few seconds to 10 minutes +

Collision Detection - essential I think, no running through or strafing, the bodies will be solid.

LOS - cannot target or cast through an opponent unless you have line of sight OR the spell/ability is AOE and therefore still able to work.

 

[RS|Phil]

Collision Detection - essential I think, no running through or strafing, the bodies will be solid.

Yeah that's always been a dream, tho friendly collision detection would still be out. Always had images of two or three tanks shoulder to shoulder holding a broken door against hordes of enemies.

 

[swords]

That's when you are consistently over-healing obviously.

A 790 heal for 2% power tho.. wtf?! Are clerics heals better then druid heals besides the instants (where cleric ones are better, tho at higher spec).

Hes rej MoH and WH specced...

 

[Korax]

If you're basing this on the daoc melee system then I reckon rear styles should be given an increased range or just increase the range of all styles when they're hitting from behind. Kiting is just stupid and I'm sure there's a lot of tanks that can spend a whole fight trying to take down targets who just run round in circles.

I couldn't disagree with you more tbh. I love the fact that a tank cant insta win as soon as he is upon you. He will have to do some clever snare\stun effect or he should burn in hell. In he could just stick and insta win. As it works in daoc now, tanks has charge, shitloads of styles to stop you and endurance. Way better then no skill stick and win.

I personally think you skipped past one of the defining aspects of DAOC's combat system which is reactive styles. (the main reason i play daoc over any other game)
Many mmo's use timer based styles so its simply a matter of squeezing out xxx damage over xx number of seconds an hope you outdamage your opponent.
The high growth rates on reactive styles (as well as the endurance benefit) means that same 2 classes, one spamming anytime the other using all reactionary chains will be leagues apart in terms of performance.

love the style queue system which is what makes the h-h combat so appealing. It feels like im trying to anticipate my opponents attacks and as soon as i deliver a style im working out what it is ive delivered and what chain i should be moving onto...feels more skill based than mashing buttons 1, then 2 then 3 then repeating.

If WaR lacks this it will feel very second rate to me.

Interupt system works fine (some tweaks needed), spell damage is slightly op, relics are a bad idea or should make minimal difference so not to throw the balance out so much (talking 5-10% max bonus).

Group sizes...i would like to see groups of 4-5 max, although im not sure if this would make group set ups more or less varied, i think this depends on class structure, with more overlapping skills, you would have more varience, without then you definatly need specific classes and everyone would run the same which would be pants.

in the words of one of the fantastic4....flame on!

I did indeed forget that. And yes, very much agreed!
As for realm bonuses, they should be made more easily exchangable and more different bonuses. Say 3 different, with 5% bonus on each. Maybe less. As for group size, it depends on class structure as you say, but I would prefeer a setup that had larger groups than 4-5. 8 as daoc has is good, but 6-7 would be nice as well imo.

Yeah that's always been a dream, tho friendly collision detection would still be out. Always had images of two or three tanks shoulder to shoulder holding a broken door against hordes of enemies.

I remember having read that they had collition detection in WAR... Atleast in a test phase. If it WORKED, it would probably own and give many good opertuneties. However, would it be possible? Lag would totally screw it up...

About predator stealth, it would be too easy for people to cheat. Just alter some file and you can see them at all times. Current stealth system has only one problem as I see it, ganking. You get a good stealth fight, BOOM 8k adders. You get a good group v group fight, 30 stealthers pop.

 

[GReaper]

A game without an interrupt war. Other players should be able to either delay, slow down or reduce damage of a spell caster, however the interrupt system in DAoC is currently a joke. For example a mezzer shouldn't be able to interrupt with aoe mez constantly.

 

[Korax]

A game without an interrupt war. Other players should be able to either delay, slow down or reduce damage of a spell caster, however the interrupt system in DAoC is currently a joke. For example a mezzer shouldn't be able to interrupt with aoe mez constantly.

Interuption system is good, but things like that can be tweaked yes. However, interupt the bard, and you no longer have a problem eh? And dont stand in a bunch.

 

[grizzy]

At the course mythic are right now with combat system for WAR... things can get messy unless they do something to counter promotion for soloing the fact that melee hits dont interrupt casting. Also... strafing already seems too fast, which effects it also and makes u feel like u play a shooter instead of .. something else you'd wish to (a nice example here wud be WoW ofc)

 

[grizzy]

Stealth - The stealth system i'd like to see done in a Predator style, stealth classes are completely invisible when stationary but as they move they will become a faint out line with light reflecting of them, still hard to make out but you can see the movement related to how fast they are trying to go.

= archerwars

fuck that and remake avp

 

[Ctuchik]

At the course mythic are right now with combat system for WAR... things can get messy unless they do something to counter promotion for soloing the fact that melee hits dont interrupt casting. Also... strafing already seems too fast, which effects it also and makes u feel like u play a shooter instead of .. something else you'd wish to (a nice example here wud be WoW ofc)

the game looks to be made for 15 year old CS kids most likly

kinda the same as WoW is.

still gonna give it a go tho. but i doubt i'l be any less aggrivated on WAR's grafics in the end as i got with WoW's.

heres hoping they finally come to their sences and make another warhammer game around the 40k universe to...

 

[grizzy]

the game looks to be made for 15 year old CS kids most likly

kinda the same as WoW is.

still gonna give it a go tho. but i doubt i'l be any less aggrivated on WAR's grafics in the end as i got with WoW's.

heres hoping they finally come to their sences and make another warhammer game around the 40k universe to...

im quite sad about some1 saying they didnt like a game cuz of its graphics while it has so many flaws in gameplay that even a blind person can spot some of em

oh and welcom to a fantasy universe with ur 15 year old kids and CS bs

 

[RS|Phil]

I couldn't disagree with you more tbh. I love the fact that a tank cant insta win as soon as he is upon you. He will have to do some clever snare\stun effect or he should burn in hell. In he could just stick and insta win. As it works in daoc now, tanks has charge, shitloads of styles to stop you and endurance. Way better then no skill stick and win..

I'll concede your point if you'll consider this - a tank runs upto a caster, /sticks to him and styles, the caster runs off and tank runs off at same moment - but the casters is permanently out of range - and that's just wrong. I abuse this as much as the next man but tbh it's broken I'm not asking for a huge range increase just something to prevent people being a hair's breadth too far out of range.

Or - and this is more along the lines of your point - remove root, snare, stun, and the slow effect disease has. If you're saying it's fair for tanks to be kited then it should be fair to remove the CC from cloth users and other dmg casters because if you can kite a tank then you've already got one form of CC in my opinion.

 

[grizzy]

Id really prefer melee classes to remain as the effective ''solo rvr'' classes rather than : /face 3 2 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 win/lose

 

[Elrandhir]

I hope they remove "I win stuns"

Then also remove lifetap thanks ;D I would take the lifetap and all crap Alb etc have any day over baseline stun, even if it's a good abil, it dosent make up for all the crap some classes have gotten.

 

[Thegreatest]

I would love to see a combat system like in Oblivion, with block/parry done manually and also you swing the sword manually and determine the styles done with the movement direction of your mouse instead of bashing some buttons...but I guess there will never be a MMORPG with this system

 

[grizzy]

I would love to see a combat system like in Oblivion, with block/parry done manually and also you swing the sword manually and determine the styles done with the movement direction of your mouse instead of bashing some buttons...but I guess there will never be a MMORPG with this system

I wudnt be suprised if something like that is ever made on the Nintendo Wii xd

 

[RS|Phil]

I want limb detachment

 

[Hauwyth]

Leave it as it is but remove:

Baseline Stun.
Vamp Claw or increase recast timer to 10 sec/increase power usage.
Strafing.
Stealthers unable to be withing 5000 units of another stealther.
Relics

 

[leviathane]

Then also remove lifetap thanks ;D I would take the lifetap and all crap Alb etc have any day over baseline stun, even if it's a good abil, it dosent make up for all the crap some classes have gotten.

sm's have lifetap too and they have an op'd pet, also vw's xD

 

[Bugz]

Leave it as it is but remove:

Baseline Stun.
Vamp Claw or increase recast timer to 10 sec/increase power usage.
Strafing.
Stealthers unable to be withing 5000 units of another stealther.
Relics

lmao.

baseline stun means FA in the world of purge3/det etc.

vamp claw is hardly op. I have to spec 48 ve for a gd 250-300 damage claw, and thts on crap resists. Vs. someone with high aom or if they pop EM, i claw for 100-150.

strafing is easy to counter. if you don't know how to, you deserve to die.

wtf?

Hmmmm, I'd rather they introduced ways to make the guards scale in terms of the population online.