Closed!

[kivik]

As for kivik - your right and wrong all at once.

Meh, just my luck Why can I never be totally right!

 

[Phule_Gubben]

there's gratz areas, make an add/no add area too? I'd be really happy if there was one so I could avoid em by ease.

 

[Everz]

truth.. rvr section was fun to read at one time.

 

[Dave J.]

So excuse me I am not chatting with you on IRC I am not in your guild. Why then should I have to mystically know what you guys chat about? Why do we have to get it? You seem to be a member of some in club and then want everyone else to know that all this has been discussed before. Why do you seem to demand that a forum called FH becomes that in groups board? It just doesn't make sense.

I'm not sure what's so hard to understand, several people have pointed out they read FH partly because of the, sometimes, hillarious whines. Some people dont like them, sure, I buy that, but its just another step to dictate what the mods/creators of this forum finds funny. Noone forces you to read a thread called "Fao xxx you f**king adder", do they?

I love to read funny posts its what makes this place amusing even those posts that are a bit over the line I still enjoy them. Add whine is not one of those things, it reduces the board to boring vitrol. I don't mind discussions on adding and I don't mind people coming here to try and iron out misunderstandings about adding. I do however detest bitching about it for all the reasons others have cited here.

I thought that was part of a forum, people having different oppinions. Clearly FH takes a stand towards one typ of daoc players, seeing as 'adder' (for example) is considered an insult, but 'leetist' is not.

 

[ebenezer]

I thought that was part of a forum, people having different oppinions. Clearly FH takes a stand towards one typ of daoc players, seeing as 'adder' (for example) is considered an insult, but 'leetist' is not.

There is an explanation for everything dave Reason add whine( the whine itself not the player style) is banned is because of the countless personal attacks and cursing the add whine posts spawn. And mind you...just dig back into old threads and you will find that the "adding" side very very seldom begin and whine threads the other camps way. Its easy to understand really.

If a click keeps whining and bitching they destroy for the rest of that camp in the end. Not only do they have the actual game mechanics against them...they also now have the mods at their favourite whine hangout against them. Also they have made poeple not in their camp to think all people that likes add free fights are whiners and idiots that just attacks everyone. Im getting worried pms all the time during rvr when someone added on me apologizing that they "interferred " in my fight. I couldnt care less. What the heck happened to this game. No spontanity left whatsoever....and i think a large blame is this tiresome discussion...its slowly poisoning the game to go to its end. Its not healthy and its too late to do anything about it now. For me only a shred of daoc still exists, and i doubt il be playing it much longer. So the non add side will miss another player that shared at least that view a bit cause some cant controle their frustration and anger...and i think many feel like i do.
over and out..

 

[xGenocidex]

I really don't think if all the "DON'T ADD U FOOL" people and the "STOP WHINNING ABOUT ME ADDING FOOL" people were to leave we'd still have a pretty nice and solid base of people here.

I bet it would be a nicer place if they all did leave or make their own forum.

not what i mean what i said was "the closing of threads about whine is fine" sick of seeing them myself.. i was refering to the mod threats every time someone has an opinion about something game related which the mods don't like yet the players still discuss it seriously.. and on occasion imaturely... but thats what the hell forums are for.. to discuss things... not live in fear of being banned because you said something a power hungry mod didn't like (not refering to the whine threads by all means close them) its pathetic :/

 

[Sharkith]

I'm not sure what's so hard to understand, several people have pointed out they read FH partly because of the, sometimes, hillarious whines. Some people dont like them, sure, I buy that, but its just another step to dictate what the mods/creators of this forum finds funny. Noone forces you to read a thread called "Fao xxx you f**king adder", do they?



I thought that was part of a forum, people having different oppinions. Clearly FH takes a stand towards one typ of daoc players, seeing as 'adder' (for example) is considered an insult, but 'leetist' is not.

You see now your point has changed significantly since your last post. If the add whine was reserved and contained and those that like to tout it so much kept it under wraps then I would imagine we would not be in this situation. But like Flim and so many others have said they even began posting that shit in threads that had nothing to do with add whine. So it is slightly disingenuous of you to use the 'don't click on the link if you don't want to read it argument.' When whine just permeated everything here. Whiners have only themselves to blame.

As for your second paragraph the point about forums and having different opinions goes without saying but when you only have one opinion drowing out all others then it is bloody unhealthy. Add whine drowns out other opinions and therefore is itself counter productive. It permeated everything around here and therefore I agree with this rule. I am against censorship on the whole but things got so out of hand around here that all you would see was add whine even where you did not want to see it.

Finally on adder and l33tist point. You are once more making a very elementary mistake. 'Adder' is derogatory and as a term is rooted in the culture of those who define themselves as 'l33tist'. Why did they define themselves as l33tist - perhaps to mark themselves out apart and somehow more worthy of opinion than the other 'adding idiots'. Therefore one is derogatory and the other is not - that is perhaps why there is a bias. It is also somewhat ironic that you claim the terms should be treated with equivalence. I guess you might want to try again to prove who is more and who is less 'biased' ?

 

[Straef]

there's gratz areas, make an add/no add area too? I'd be really happy if there was one so I could avoid em by ease.

I don't particulary fancy the areas :x Like, since templates had to be posted in a seperate section, I only got one or two replies in a thread, rather than the one or two pages I would've had in the Albion section :< And I think the adding players, or whoever gets mentioned in a whine thread, will just stay away from the Add section

 

[Gondath]

"Closed!"

Not quite

 

[Alan]

"Closed!"

Not quite

Its getting there - just need a few more wanker emotes and associated comments to tip it over.

 

[AngelHeal]

I think the mods are dooing a fine job, you can say everything you want if you just post it correct.

Want to flame someone?

Use pm.

Wanne talk about sex? (don't know why you want that to discuss here though, but hey, no one is the same )

Use off-topic

Want to post something because you feel angry.

Use words mods love.

(ie: I'am really, not so very happy about this.) instead of: I REALLY HATE YOU AND IM GONNE BLOW SOMEBODY's HEAD OF IF YOU DONT etc yada).


mods are dooing fine...

And befor you ask the mods to know the forum better, try the 'preview post' button, and check for spelling....

People here somehow want you to spell things correct..

 

[Alan]

Want to flame someone?

Use pm.

There are other ways :-
https://forums.freddyshouse.com/showthread.php?t=34305

and BEFORE you all bitch at me, I made that post nearly 2 years ago and have grown up since then but i love the way no one figured it out until I explained to read the first letter of each line (read downwards) , and this is not an open invitation to challenge me (or the other mods) thats just silly... like i was all those years ago hehe


<---- Juvenile Genius

 

[pip]

Looking at the bottom of a empty glass

 

[Gondath]

The big problem is people have had their opinions, over and over and over and over ... and over again, the constant stream of "you added on my fight" just got to a point where the admin here didnt want to see any more

If people wanna discuss something that is on-topic for this board, even if it's the same topic for the 10th beelion time, they ought to be allowed to... if some people find it worthwhile and interesting to debate a certain (relevant) topic and you or anyone else happen to find it getting pretty damn old by now, you know what? Noone is forcing you to read.

Just so gd tired of people having opinions on what others should and shouldn't discuss based on their own ideas of what is interesting and purposeful or not. That's simply not something to base moderation on.

 

[Shike]

Ok then be our guest if you are seriously going to say that your on the side of those that enjoy this whine - form your own club and go make your own board.

My bet is as follows - once all the whining twits leave. Rather than collapsing we might find that others will come to FH and start posting things and ideas that would not have appeared otherwise and we will end up with a much more diverse and interesting place to read. Reducing whine of the add variety everytime there is a thread is moronic in the extreme.

We have had the debate and we settled it a long time ago and even the whining dicks agreed that the argument was sound. So if it is so bad here then go. Fuck off.

I lub u mate!

but, im a bit cynical now and then and tbh, if it wasnt for the addwhine/discussion, the RVRsection would die down fast and without any mercy, just because there is so much you can discuss and all topics has pretty much already been covered, over and over again. I mean, what is there to discuss about RvR these days, really!, that havent been discussed before? Tactics? Setups? State of the realms? Balanceissues? Bugs? What? Those of us who played the game since beta already know pretty much everything there is to know, about mechanics, about balance, about setups, about RvR as a whole, most who post on this forum are either old dogs who RvRd for ages or wannabe's who pretend they RvRd for ages and the few ones who just dont have much experience at all (oh and some are just idiots too haha) . Ask me _any_ question about RvR sharkith and I can give you an unbiased informative answer, about problems, balance, issues, whatever, me and a ton of others already knows the answers to all the questions, what differs us all is our level of bias, some are narrowminded since they only play one realm, some have experience from casual RvR in all realms, some have experience from guildRvR in all realms and our opinions are formed from our experiences in DAoC, thats all (oh and some are just stupid too heh). Bias is all that differs us, not our experience from mechanics or balance or general problems in DAoC. RvRforum, yeah, what is there to be discussed, well, I think RvR should be discussed but because of the rules we arent allowed to name and shame and then there is no real point in it, since its censorship ruling defined by casual players PoV where morale is useless, respect is craptastic, fair play.. who gives a shit, just zerg the bejesus out of everything and its fine, a system where you cannot bring down shame upon an opponent because of how he/she play and only praise anyone is useless and serves only one purpose, to gratify everyone, whoever it might be with whatever playstyle, aslong as one plays the game one is equal in FH's rulings.
I think its bullshit but I gave up discussing it and just poke around these days, giving my serious opinions here and there and spam alittle there and here just because I'm bored, is all I can do since I have my opinions about the game, how it can be played and how it should be played and those opinions collide directly with the casualfriendly directives we have. All that is left is to share some knowledge, wisdom and give my opinion in raised questions that has been discussed 1000 times before. Look at VN, its the same old topics mixed with some random bla bla nerf this bla bla nerf that, or! grats bla bla on rr11 from bridgecamping or templatediscussions, thats just how it is, sure some discussions about specs and mechanics are interesting but those hardly belong in a RvRoriented section.

If a frog is green, it is green, on FH we have discussed this frog for ages and I believe we came to the conclusion that, YES IT IS GREEN. End of story, what to discuss now?..

 

[Shike]

I really love those commas jesus..

FH should allow us to edit after 10min imo

 

[Sharkith]

Shike,

the frog is green I am fairly sure of that. I also have so much time for you guys even if I am still on a learning curve. Whatever you say about experience justifying some theoretical superiority I have been there. There are people Shike who claim that they have the best theory for the emancipation of society in general. In social terms they claim that somehow society would be better if only people would listen to them because they know better. Some of those people Shike do not even speak to the people whom they claim they know more about. How can they do this and even have half a clue that what they are saying is true for those people?

It does not jusify whining and bitiching by a long shot.

All I see here is that there is a discordance and something is not fitting. Now should we whine about it and complain about adding or should we try to discuss it in a way that is constructive?

DAOC has changed, can you deny that?

If it has changed then the expereince has changed. If the game is to suirvive then we need to listen. Some of these arguments are old I agree and it makes sense when we should listen. However some of the arguments are not as old as others like to make out Shike. They are tied to what is going on here and now. There are people in the server here and now who experience the game in a very different way to old hands like you. However no matter how much we need to listen I do think you need to step back and think a bit.

How on earth can we be sure that the views of these old hands are relevant for the new guys if there is not a meaningful debate? By that all I mean is a forum where you can try to dicsuss things openly.

Whining about adding blocks that process.

I have learned more from people like Quinn who flamed me but did it in a way to make me think about what I was doing. Add whine does not even come close to achieving this kind of insight. All it does is close how people think. Please do not reduce the insights you guys have so that they can only be experessed in add whine. Surely you can see what I am driving at?

/bow

Sharkith

 

[Shike]

Shike,

the frog is green I am fairly sure of that. I also have so much time for you guys even if I am still on a learning curve. Whatever you say about experience justifying some theoretical superiority I have been there. There are people Shike who claim that they have the best theory for the emancipation of society in general. In social terms they claim that somehow society would be better if only people would listen to them because they know better. Some of those people Shike do not even speak to the people whom they claim they know more about. How can they do this and even have half a clue that what they are saying is true for those people?

No, I didnt mean it to be about superiority, its about old topics beeing raised over and over and over and over again. I fully understand your point about "politicians" (I choose to call em that because thats the best thing I can categorise your description as) because I've seen it myself but I dont think the same reasoning can be applied on this forumsection because it is all about numbers and set rules we are forced to abide to ingame, we cannot do anything about those rules and those rules can only be discussed to a certain limit before the discussion get very dusty and old. That is what I mean. I'm saying, me and alot of others have played this game for over a year reallifetime and more, trust me when I say, we know this game inside and out. I didnt joke when I said: ask me any question and you will get an unbiased answer, I'm 100% serious and confident I can answer your question, just because I've played all archetypes, I've played casual aswell as guildgroup aswell as stealthwars, Ive never gone out with the intention to zerg though since I despice that playstyle but other than that, I've done most things you can do in DAoC. I am not your superior because of that, I just have more knowledge and probably some more wisdom when it comes to just DAoC, thats all, if you are a better player you are a better player, I never claimed I was an uberplayer who pwnz all, I just happen to know alot and I play according to the old roleplayingrules set in the tabletops, man I miss Piffany, he was a fountain of knowledge!. All the topics beeing raised is usually just making me go sleepmode. I dont think I'm the only one feeling that way. There are no new issues, there are no new discussions about balance and other important things anymore, all stuff posted is old stuff and when I see the posts I just know the answers, usually I choose not to post just because people in general are powerhungry and biased and dont give a crap about balance, its all /mememe and nothing else for a majority of the posters, where we in the old days could have serious discussions about anything and there was alot of people posting their opinions regardless of their realm or class they play, sadly those people are long gone and all I see today is biased bullcrap allover the place, nobody REALLY cares about what is most important in DAoC, only about themselves except for the very few exceptions, it kindof shows the colour of DAoC aswell these days, imo it reflects what the game changed into the last years for Prydwenites at least.

It does not jusify whining and bitiching by a long shot.

well, you call it whining and bitching, I call it a reasonable discussion that is RVRrelated. I have my point of view about how RvR should be played, you have yours, the mods have theirs and FH have its CoC, I wish it could be a bit different since I believe it would be better overall but it aint gonna change.

All I see here is that there is a discordance and something is not fitting. Now should we whine about it and complain about adding or should we try to discuss it in a way that is constructive?

I dont think there is any way to discuss adding and such in a constructive way, since it is about fixed situations from people with a fixed mind about how to play DAoC, its fundamental differences between us all that set the rules for how we play, thats not something that can or will be changed I believe since we all have our reasons to play, if I change my reason, chanses are high I will quit, same for everyone. NF changed DAoC fundamentally in many ways and we see the result now, alot of people quit the game, NF changed the reason to play for many and as a result, many quit. Simple as that. That cannot be changed, NF will not be changed and there is nothing really constructive we can say about it either, since it is down to Mythic to make the rules and they create our environment, it happens to be so that NF is more friendly towards the casual player and zergs and I seriosly think Mythic underestimated how many people there was that played the game for FGfights, solofights and such, the results speak for themselves. NF is ultimately all about siege and zerg.

DAOC has changed, can you deny that?

Nah, I wont deny that ofc, Ive been here from the start and seen what has happened to the game, its sad.

If it has changed then the expereince has changed. If the game is to suirvive then we need to listen. Some of these arguments are old I agree and it makes sense when we should listen. However some of the arguments are not as old as others like to make out Shike. They are tied to what is going on here and now. There are people in the server here and now who experience the game in a very different way to old hands like you. However no matter how much we need to listen I do think you need to step back and think a bit.

Game has changed, so has all the old players that still play it. All the issues are just freshened up to fit to the newer system, some things have gotten fixed but fact still remains, its still the very same game, people still think the same ways and most important, Mythic havent really changed that much overall. I dont need to step back to see whats going on and what has happened, I really dont. What has changed is the things I see possible to improve the game. Those matters have been discussed in old threads and I dont see any new blood come into play there.

How on earth can we be sure that the views of these old hands are relevant for the new guys if there is not a meaningful debate? By that all I mean is a forum where you can try to dicsuss things openly.

Whining about adding blocks that process.

I have learned more from people like Quinn who flamed me but did it in a way to make me think about what I was doing. Add whine does not even come close to achieving this kind of insight. All it does is close how people think. Please do not reduce the insights you guys have so that they can only be experessed in add whine. Surely you can see what I am driving at?

/bow

Sharkith

First of all, sadly, there isnt many new players coming into the game the normal way, second, its still same people, people dont change so fast Sharkith, im an optimist really but I cant see DAoCs population change over a year, or even five years, we have our hardcoreplayers, we have our casuals, we have our zergers, we have our griefers and also our idiots. Thats not gonna change, it didnt change last 5 years, it wont change next 5 either, only thing that can change is that more people from a certain category quits the game, leaving another category in majority and that is ultimately a destructive way for the game to evolve and thats kindof what has happened sadly.

I still claim that since FH fosters its users to a certain way, it will drive away others from the game, since FH after all is the "official" forum for DAoC UK, a soloplayer getting chainganked day after day reading the forum will get one POV and that is, it aint gonna change, ever. The zerglings gets their gratsthreads without any chanse of mocking them for how they play, one cannot complain about getting added on 100 times in a week by a certain individual, one cannot complain about a specific guild ruining lots of fights for a month for alot of FGplayers, things like this in the public means there is no hope whatsoever to be seen for anyone else but a casuals and zergling who just happen to enjoy that playstyle who on the contrary, get encouragement to behave like an ass, since that is the way FH teaches us. That is contributing to the detriement of the game as a whole for some people, nothing weird in that, I dont like it but as said, there is little to do about.

As I said in another thread, the winners in DAoC are the ones who play for griefing, for winning nomatter what cost is paid, the loosers are the ones who prefer fair play and follow some sort of code of moreale. The more of those that quit, the worse the game gets, every day and if anyone doubt people quit, look at the numbers of players playing, think of that poor sod you zerged with your FG, perhaps he cancels next day, bringing the game even further down until its so shit so nobody can stand it anymore. Someone made some lousy RPs, but someone else quit and lowering population even more, tell me, who won in the end, I'd say nobody, we are all loosers in this game as it is right now and FH isnt helping one single bit. I dont ask for us to be allowed to take a train of horseshit and dump it on anyone, im asking for us to be allowed to at least protest when someone does something bad ingame in RvR, at least that belong in the RvRsection imo.

About Quin, you cannot ask of everyone to be so careful and diplomatic with words as he can be, you just cant expect that. The discussions on prydwen.net has always been a bit more... mature overall and FH is FH, difference is, prydwen.net's discussions has usually been in a sheltered environment only for hibs with the very few exceptions.

zzzz at this post, sorry I made it so long but I cba to edit it since I have to sleeeeeeeeeeeeeeep!

 

[Gamah]

Tell that to the massive amount of players
endlessly trying to make alts for RvR why don't these
alts start forming xp groups we may then see new players actually
ready to stick with the game and play until they reach RvR Level.
So I think an adjustment is needed in the attitude of the community.

If we want to change the game we can, there is nothing
stoping us from doing so except there are faster ways to lvl than xp grps.

Got to admit though, would you make an xp grp with new players?
At a guess I would think you wouldn't not, you would log on you're pl char?
Yes go on admit it!?!

 

[Alan]

Tell that to the massive amount of players
endlessly trying to make alts for RvR why don't these
alts start forming xp groups we may then see new players actually
ready to stick with the game and play until they reach RvR Level.
So I think an adjustment is needed in the attitude of the community.

If we want to change the game we can, there is nothing
stoping us from doing so except there are faster ways to lvl than xp grps.

Got to admit though, would you make an xp grp with new players?
At a guess I would think you wouldn't not, you would log on you're pl char?
Yes go on admit it!?!

B+ for effort, but use some imagination next time, dont just blatantly copy my genius. ohh... and prove it

 

[Gamah]

B+ for effort, but use some imagination next time, dont just blatantly copy my genius. ohh... and prove it

Busted :<

*Gets tears drunk and videos him dancing to YMCA with passion as proof*

 

[Sharkith]

Shike,

I appreciate the reply I really do. I understand it and I do feel very sad that things seem to have gone down so badly. It is really dissappointing to see that the game is reducing and game options have become very very narrow now and that is not good for the game wether you are a zergling, zerger, l33tist or whatever. We all have the same interests and the more people we encourage into the game the better it is for everyone.

As for NF - I cannot comment I have only been playing RvR since after NF was released. I managed to get to the famous Juptier relic raid ("Don't panic we've got shrooms!") as a level 40 player and shortly after old frontiers vanished. So I have to leave that debate because I simply have no clue about the difference. I do agree that the environment encourages certain styles of playing but thats about all I can really discuss on that point.

As for the adding debate. I think we have found some decent ways to see things right here on the forums. We have had good discussions about it and it has had an effect in the game. You are right that FH has a very important role in all of this and this brings me to the point.

There are two things in your post that cross and have the potential to confuse the debate. What happens here and what happens in game and how they relate.

What happens here
The forum is a communication channel and it can only carry so much information - when it gets spammed by a particular repetitive whine the communication degenerates and gets all fucked up. So most of my points in this thread are about this particular problem. This however as you rightly say is not the whole point. FH does have influence on the community the question I have for you is how positive has that been?

How positive is add whine and how does it help shape in game experience? That is the ultimate test. True you are absolutely right there will always be 'adders', 'zerglings', 'l33tists' but all of those terms are terms that are used by someone to call someone else. To stereotype them. Stereotypes can be productive if you communicate it in a positive way but they can equally be deeply hurtful.

So when we call someone a name are we encouraging them to listen and maybe adopt their play style or to be more considerate? I put it to you that adding and add whine are deeply counterproductive. It is a poor way to communicate and it simply reinforces negativity.

A while back we had that big debate about enjoying all styles of playing and we agreed as a forum community that we should encourage all styles of play and try to carve our own spaces out in game. What I don't think we were clear on was how we should do this.

Your an old gaffer in this game who has obviously been around the block why do you still play when things have been so bad? Why is it that adding does not really upset you as much as other people?

Surely there is another way to express this? Maybe we need some new terms in game to positively encourage the things we love. Its why for example I started the PUG thing. To encourage people to see what FG play is like and I have been surprised at the results.

Why don't you take someone out who is known for zerging and group with hem for example and then take them around not to duo but to introduce them to the life of the soloer? What is more positive? Whining at them for adding or spending some time in game chatting with them and showing them how you play and why you do it?

/respect

Sharkith

 

[Shike]

As for NF - I cannot comment I have only been playing RvR since after NF was released. I managed to get to the famous Juptier relic raid ("Don't panic we've got shrooms!") as a level 40 player and shortly after old frontiers vanished. So I have to leave that debate because I simply have no clue about the difference. I do agree that the environment encourages certain styles of playing but thats about all I can really discuss on that point.

mm, well, there are differences, but its pointless to discuss those as you say.

As for the adding debate. I think we have found some decent ways to see things right here on the forums. We have had good discussions about it and it has had an effect in the game. You are right that FH has a very important role in all of this and this brings me to the point.

What happens here
The forum is a communication channel and it can only carry so much information - when it gets spammed by a particular repetitive whine the communication degenerates and gets all fucked up. So most of my points in this thread are about this particular problem. This however as you rightly say is not the whole point. FH does have influence on the community the question I have for you is how positive has that been?

Its the problem with influence I dont like, FH should be a channel to vent on just as much as it should be about information and debate, the venting part is what isnt allowed, calling someone an adder, despite the fact that the person in question actually is one! equals a warning. Thats silly imo. One should always play in such a way that you can defend your actions, but, as it is now people play just how they want without any need to defend themselves when someone think they do wrong and question their purpose. The purpose is what drives us, and sometimes Im curios to why same trio kills me 15 times in a row, and also want to be able to debate whether its right or wrong to do so, FH doesnt allow this and equals warnings, doesnt matter how its put forth, its closed and no debate is allowed. The ones who likes to play the game without any morale etc however, are free to vent how much they are allowed to be jackasses and do as they want. They ruin the game for many though, and contributes to the degeneration in DAoC. That cant even be debated, since numbers clearly shows that they are declining, numbers of people playing fair FGfights and solo are also declining, this if anything is a huge warningsign that says: the way the game is going, nothing but zerglings will be left in a year, one can accept getting zerged 24/7 if one at least is allowed to protest but we cant even do that, it all adds up and becomes too much for most eventually. Ultimately, I blame NF ofc but FH has its part in it aswell I think. FHs restrictions last months havent lead to more people soloing, it havent lead to more FGs running active, on the contrary, both types are MIA, more than ever. There is your answer to your question.

How positive is add whine and how does it help shape in game experience? That is the ultimate test. True you are absolutely right there will always be 'adders', 'zerglings', 'l33tists' but all of those terms are terms that are used by someone to call someone else. To stereotype them. Stereotypes can be productive if you communicate it in a positive way but they can equally be deeply hurtful.

Addwhine can be positive in the way that at least some individuals might come to think, hmm, I dont wanna be called a zergling, adder, prick, whatever, and at least give soloing/FGrvr a go. Some people might not want to be stereotyped as an asshat, and try do something else for a change, if its hurtful to be called zergling, then why on earth does one do things to justify that label? Well atm there is 0 consequenses for beeing a zergling, addwhine isnt allowed, we cant name and shame so its easy to just be one in the mass and play it in a destructive way, destructive in the way that it ruins the fun for those that do try to play it fair, totally. A soloer doesnt harm anyone, he is looking for solofights and leave fights be and respect those that leaves his fights alone at least until they are finished, an adder on the other hand, is seeking to ruin fights for others and also get his easy RPs from it, he ruins things for others and doesnt care a single bit about fair play. Whos is the better of the two? Just by looking at the explained facts above, the adder is the vulture and dont care for anyone but himself, the soloer seek fair fights and doesnt ruin anything for anyone. Ofc the soloer is the better one, he should be encouraged to continue on his chosen path, the days things get too hard on him (as in, zerged 10/10 runs a whole evening) I truly believe he should be able to vent somewhere at least, he should be able to whine about it, since he is trying his hardest to the right thing in the spirit of ANY mmorpg, yet he get slammed to the ground by the mods aswell as the zerglings ingame and it aint exactly fun to get told, shut the fuck up and accept getting zerged and added on, its part of the game according to the rules on FH. Fair play can be found in Quake and go play that if you want it, well, Im asking myself, isnt fair play something we all should value a little more, and strive towards a goal where as many as possible try to play it that way? I know so many soloers that just have given up to the masses of the adders out there, they just cant do it anymore, simply because it aint fun for them, it isnt rewarding, its a giant uphill and they always get kicked down as soon as they start to climb, and FH condone this way of playing just because anyone can play in any way they want, and as soon as someone protest, they get a big STFU in the face. What will be left in a year, when WAR is out? Will soloers stick around, will the FGs who wants good fights be around? No, ofc not, why would they, when they have a whole community of idiots telling them they play it the wrong way, when infact, they try to do the right thing. Where is the pride in adding? Why is it so that adder is a bad label, why is the word zerging a bad thing for so many? Why is it so that nobody really except some eggheads want to admit they are a vulture? Why is it a negative? When so many claim it is right to add, zerg, vulture? Sounds to me as if some people just want to be a pig, but labeled as a good person regardless of their actions. Reminds me of when some goes abroad, they act like swines and comes home and pretend nothing happened, yet everyone living in the place they went knows how they are, problem is, because of financial reasons can never say to the pigs that they infact are, pigs. FH lets everyone be swines and we should all pretend its fine to be one, when someone try to be more than a pig and object, gags are put in place. Cant let people be more than pigs can we? I want to be able to call some people for what they are, a pig is a pig, even if you put a nice costume on it called CoC of FH. Hurtful eh? I dont want to be a pig, I dont want to be called adder or leecher or zerger, which is why I play the game in the way I play it, I could be a pig too and get away with it, nobody would be able to get to me at all, I myself would know though, which is enough for me, some people need to be reminded they are acting like pigs in order to realise it though, not all want to be pigs or called a pig, they just do it because of how the game has evolved but there is a better way to do things, its just that its harder.

So when we call someone a name are we encouraging them to listen and maybe adopt their play style or to be more considerate? I put it to you that adding and add whine are deeply counterproductive. It is a poor way to communicate and it simply reinforces negativity.

I dont agree, read my points above. I dont believe condoning zerging or adding etc lead to less of it, far from it, look at the state of the game now. You see more soloers than a year ago? You see more active FGs? Numbers speaks for themselves and game is heading downwards and will probably continue to do so, I dont really see a change inc at all.

A while back we had that big debate about enjoying all styles of playing and we agreed as a forum community that we should encourage all styles of play and try to carve our own spaces out in game. What I don't think we were clear on was how we should do this.

Well I dont really know Imo Mythic really need to make some serious changes in how the rewardsystem works for people to change. That would be the best medicine overall, they however hardly know their own game and just keep going on the same track and it will most likely not change. The community ofc also plays its part and if we have a community that think adding rocks, zerging is the future, fair play is for the weak, thats kindof what we have now, thanks to the CoC on FH. Its great isnt it? Zerg ftw!

Your an old gaffer in this game who has obviously been around the block why do you still play when things have been so bad? Why is it that adding does not really upset you as much as other people?

I still play because I still enjoy the few fair fights I actually get from actively seeking them. Simple as that. I take breaks when I feel its getting out of hand and do something else, like now, albs have relics and behave like arseholes, zerging like mad and currently I craft and pve a bit until the worst zerging has gone away. I dont like when I constantly get MoS'd down from trios etc, it just aint fun to feed RPs to the idiots out there. Sadly mids seem to have given up so I guess it will be like this for a while, looking at our frontier doesnt make me happier but I will start playing actively again in a while for sure. Im quite patient sharkith, I dont really get so upset anymore, I realised its no point in it, its just a game after all, its my lil hobby and I dont wanna let a hobby get me angry, wisest is to just take a break when its getting out of hand.

Surely there is another way to express this? Maybe we need some new terms in game to positively encourage the things we love. Its why for example I started the PUG thing. To encourage people to see what FG play is like and I have been surprised at the results.

I cant really see any other way As soon as someone actually make a happy thread thanking for a good fight etc ingame, idiots spam it down without mods interfering. I think its weird but /shrug, nothing to do about it. I find it weird how mods accept spam but not justified whine.

Why don't you take someone out who is known for zerging and group with hem for example and then take them around not to duo but to introduce them to the life of the soloer? What is more positive? Whining at them for adding or spending some time in game chatting with them and showing them how you play and why you do it.

Fact is, both my wife and a friend who came back to the game are currently fixing their own NSs, im helping them with gear etc and ofc I will teach them both what to do and not do. Grabbing some random zerger and duo with them to show them how I play doesnt do much though I think, soloing for example, is a way of thinking and it is done for a reason, whatever that reason may be it isnt something that can be taught. I cant teach others morale or respect for others and fair play. Thats just something that comes with beeing me.

Anyhows, I do believe you do a good thing with the PuG you run, I would never do it because of lack of energy and also patience with people, Ive been running GGs for years now, its quite tiresome and all I want from DAoC now until WAR is out is some nice fights here and there, I dont expect more, I dont expect people to change, I dont expect FH to change and ultimately, I dont think Mythic will change either. Chanses of things changing for the better is as large as the chanse of Fatload not adding on a fight

 

[Sharkith]

Another nice post and I get what your driving at I also agree but I think the difference between us is that you feel the labels (adder, zerger, etc) are a positive way of protecting something quite important. I can see the logic but I disagree that this is the only way to promote those forms of playing you and others value so much.

Sure maybe its fun to call people names and to generate concepts to be derogatory but the evidence here is that this is counter productive. I don't know the Mods here but in the history of this board I suspect the fewer rules they could have had the better for them. So you seriously need to ask why they generated this rule rather than claiming and pointing out the obvious bias.

I don't believe that it was because they are biased or that they want to promote one play style over the other. I feel the rule is there because the whine was destroying the board. In other words the rule is there because people who enjoy name calling have damaged communication in some way. The structure of the rule performs the function of protecting communication from one form that was overriding the others.

Now you are absolutely 100% right this favours those who do what they like. Being ganked 10 times in a row by the same three people to me is a form of 'griefing'. I have certainly felt personally aggrieved by some of those stealth zergs that are out there along with some of the caster groups that run around. Last night I logged for the reasons you cite - boring zerg Albs (playing as the game is intended). I am not going out again solo until it cools down.

I don't want to come here to point fingers and name names. I just log. But being chain ganked by the same bunch of players is a form of grief. Yes your absolutely right currently Mythic and GOA do I think encourage this form of griefing. I also think FH is partially biased accidently towards those who grief in this way. The reason however is not because they chose to but because the counter griefing on this board by those who felt aggreived got so bad.

Now one has to ask why this counter griefing trend (calling people adder, zerger and so on) exists? Any sensible person (espcially those with half a buisness brain) will recognise its because there is something wrong with the structure of the game. The notion of mass pitched battles is the first myth of DaoC, ironic that Mythic kind of doesn't get it. Any sensible person wanting the game to survive and wanting to make money from it would listen to people like you Shike who has been around for a time.

So finally Shike I think you might see that I kind of agree but we ought to start calling this what it is. Adding and zerging are not calling it what it is. All you do is bring your very solid and experience borne out arguement down to the playground of name calling.

I put it to you that Greifing is a much stronger term and it is likely to make life for Mythic uncomfortable should we decide to bring it to their attention. That would be a much greater challenge and one that is likely to have very important consequences if it were articulated appropriately. I would certainly join that discussion if it was to be had with those at the highest level. So start a new thread on it - 'Why does DAOC encourage 'griefing' lets see how well those who do it defend themselves this time.

As for FH there is no point countering the in game griefing with a form of counter 'grief' on FH. The history of the board is that you have removed your own ability to stand and criticise styles of play and constant sources of in game grief. I hope you get my point.

deepest respect

Sharky

 

[Shike]

I dont really see it as countergriefing though, by calling someone what they are, it isnt untrue, its no lie, its not griefing either. It just happen to be an uncomfortable truth, nothing else. I understand that essentially this shouldnt exist at all, but the gameworld and its mechanics isnt perfect, nor are they built for true competition. Its built for siege and zergwars more now than ever before NF, problem is just that early on in DAoC a fullgroup and soloculture grew forth and it was that culture that actually made DAoC a good game, I dont think anyone that have ever played in a solid good FG can say it was less fun than running with a zerg. If it was so that zergs was more fun than FGfights, everybody would have zerged from 4 years back until today. The game didnt evolve that way but NF steered it towards that, and thats pretty much all we have left. Sure we can all sit back and succumb to the greater force of the zerg but.. for me that just feel all wrong because of some reasons that really doesnt matter.

Griefing for me is when someone repetatively do something to harm another in some way. Chaingank with more numbers, pop for zergs or FG's, add, leech, vulturing. Its all fine, if done within reasonable limits but we have some people (actually quite many these days..) that only does some of the above and never ever dare to seek their own fights at all. I can perhaps change my wording to what it truly is about, cowards or weaklings. Would that be more acceptable? It kinda is more approperiate at least ^^

We essentially agree, which is the mainthing. Cant really say so much more about it than this I think

(besides, we arent allowed to call anyone adder etc anyways... so this discussion is kindof.. )

 

[Gilbride]

I'll just say I agree w/ Gond.

 

[ebenezer]

I dont really see it as countergriefing though, by calling someone what they are, it isnt untrue, its no lie, its not griefing either. It just happen to be an uncomfortable truth, nothing else. I understand that essentially this shouldnt exist at all, but the gameworld and its mechanics isnt perfect, nor are they built for true competition. Its built for siege and zergwars more now than ever before NF, problem is just that early on in DAoC a fullgroup and soloculture grew forth and it was that culture that actually made DAoC a good game, I dont think anyone that have ever played in a solid good FG can say it was less fun than running with a zerg. If it was so that zergs was more fun than FGfights, everybody would have zerged from 4 years back until today. The game didnt evolve that way but NF steered it towards that, and thats pretty much all we have left. Sure we can all sit back and succumb to the greater force of the zerg but.. for me that just feel all wrong because of some reasons that really doesnt matter.

Griefing for me is when someone repetatively do something to harm another in some way. Chaingank with more numbers, pop for zergs or FG's, add, leech, vulturing. Its all fine, if done within reasonable limits but we have some people (actually quite many these days..) that only does some of the above and never ever dare to seek their own fights at all. I can perhaps change my wording to what it truly is about, cowards or weaklings. Would that be more acceptable? It kinda is more approperiate at least ^^

We essentially agree, which is the mainthing. Cant really say so much more about it than this I think

(besides, we arent allowed to call anyone adder etc anyways... so this discussion is kindof.. )

i agree with almost everything except maybe about what makes daoc a good game. I think the comunity have crippled itself by the division that started early on. The zerging side, which consists of many many different constalations( duos , trios...half groups fgs etc etc) played as they always had and never questioned anything but just kept on playing and enjoyed it like they had. The solo/fg side wanted the rest of the game to suddenly change with them and started these discussions when that didnt happend. this is coming from a guy that loves soloing( me) and i hate what the game have become now( comunity wise) . I think the game itself always had the oportunity for great play and enormous of diversity. But the diversion in comunites have made it black and white and have cornered the game more and more into less then it always could be. You now have people that hesitate to go out solo cause of all the whine etc, you also have players that with their own money want to play a game and have fun and get abused in game for just playing like they are entitled to. that is not a healthy game enviroment and the both camps have to understand that no playstyle is better and all is acceptable. Thats the bottom line and how it is. Xause the game it what it is...its the comunity that have set this course and its not gonna stop unless they themself take action.
imo.
over and out..

 

[Shike]

i agree with almost everything except maybe about what makes daoc a good game. I think the comunity have crippled itself by the division that started early on. The zerging side, which consists of many many different constalations( duos , trios...half groups fgs etc etc) played as they always had and never questioned anything but just kept on playing and enjoyed it like they had. The solo/fg side wanted the rest of the game to suddenly change with them and started these discussions when that didnt happend. this is coming from a guy that loves soloing( me) and i hate what the game have become now( comunity wise) . I think the game itself always had the oportunity for great play and enormous of diversity. But the diversion in comunites have made it black and white and have cornered the game more and more into less then it always could be. You now have people that hesitate to go out solo cause of all the whine etc, you also have players that with their own money want to play a game and have fun and get abused in game for just playing like they are entitled to. that is not a healthy game enviroment and the both camps have to understand that no playstyle is better and all is acceptable. Thats the bottom line and how it is. Xause the game it what it is...its the comunity that have set this course and its not gonna stop unless they themself take action.
imo.
over and out..

agree there tbh, it did take a weird route after a year or so after release. I still think FGrvr is what is most fun in DAoC though, hands down. Just a shame the quality of that type of RvR has gone down the drain so bad.

One lil thing, I would never, ever call anyone anything ingame, I never do. I may say alot of things on the forums and also on iRC but never ingame, I pay deep respect for my realmmates even if they play it... different from how I play it. And yes, game is heading where it is heading, and it wont really change, since it do seem that the community have set a goal already. Dont really know how that is gonna change.

 

[Bracken]

Its built for siege and zergwars more now than ever before NF, problem is just that early on in DAoC a fullgroup and soloculture grew forth and it was that culture that actually made DAoC a good game, I dont think anyone that have ever played in a solid good FG can say it was less fun than running with a zerg.

That sums it up. A certain number of people decided they preferred fg (or solo) rvr. Fair enough. The problem arose when they also decided that everyone else should find that more fun too. I've run in solid good fgs, and I can honestly say that while the fights were fun the attitudes I saw were not. Which is why now I run with friends regardless of how they play. And it's actually far more relaxing than running in a fg ever was. Bottom line is play how you want but don't get your knickers in a twist when others are just playing the game like they always have done.

 

[Light]

I still claim that since FH fosters its users to a certain way, it will drive away others from the game, since FH after all is the "official" forum for DAoC UK, a soloplayer getting chainganked day after day reading the forum will get one POV and that is, it aint gonna change, ever. The zerglings gets their gratsthreads without any chanse of mocking them for how they play, one cannot complain about getting added on 100 times in a week by a certain individual, one cannot complain about a specific guild ruining lots of fights for a month for alot of FGplayers, things like this in the public means there is no hope whatsoever to be seen for anyone else but a casuals and zergling who just happen to enjoy that playstyle who on the contrary, get encouragement to behave like an ass, since that is the way FH teaches us. That is contributing to the detriement of the game as a whole for some people, nothing weird in that, I dont like it but as said, there is little to do about.

As I said in another thread, the winners in DAoC are the ones who play for griefing, for winning nomatter what cost is paid, the loosers are the ones who prefer fair play and follow some sort of code of moreale. The more of those that quit, the worse the game gets, every day and if anyone doubt people quit, look at the numbers of players playing, think of that poor sod you zerged with your FG, perhaps he cancels next day, bringing the game even further down until its so shit so nobody can stand it anymore. Someone made some lousy RPs, but someone else quit and lowering population even more, tell me, who won in the end, I'd say nobody, we are all loosers in this game as it is right now and FH isnt helping one single bit. I dont ask for us to be allowed to take a train of horseshit and dump it on anyone, im asking for us to be allowed to at least protest when someone does something bad ingame in RvR, at least that belong in the RvRsection imo.

Absolutely agree with this, and have never seen such a lack of honour/respect/sportsmanship (whatever you like to term it) while rvr'ing as i see today - and it certainly is driving people away. There was nothing you could ever really do about it but the fact that it could become public (in various ways) sort of acted like a mini deterent, now thats gone people just dont seem to give a fuck - and its a shame.