S
svartmetall
Guest
I've been thinking (this will involve me referencing Mid classes mainly, because they're the ones I'm most familiar with)...maybe what classes need isn't nerfing, but making sure that when you play one that you'd always want to have 50 in its signature ability. And that that ability should be class-defining, fun, look cool, and have weaknesses that go with it to ensure overall game balance.
I just started a Thane...lot of fun so far...but I see people talking about specs a lot of the time that involve Stormcalling being at 44 or something. Now if I play a Thane, it's because I get to go ZAP! and stick a bolt of lightning up someone's arse, if I just want to hit stuff with a bit of metal on a stick - satisfying as that is - I have Warriors for that. So I'm keeping Stormcalling at 50...now if I were playing a Skald, I'd want to have Battlesongs at 50. Etc etc, you see my point; now...rather than nerfing classes, why not ensure that each classes' signature thing is really good? Make sure that the level 50 "thing" is really strong, and related to their defining class characteristic.
For example: make the 50 Stormcalling thing a HUGE lightning bolt that nukes whatever it hits and does some AOE zappage (not sure if "zappage" is a word, but I reckon it should be) to those nearby...but takes a good while to cast, i.e. is hard to pull off in melees. Think about it; you'd see that land near you in a mosh, and it'd be like (Quake 3 announcer voice) "HOLY SHIT!". You'd know a powerful Thane was nearby, and he/she could deep-fry you...would be fun for Thanes, would make battles spectacular, and yet the Thane would have to stand there for like 10 seconds or something to pull it off. So you have a chance to drop them.
When a Zerk Svendo'd, you knew exactly who you had to drop first to make sure your mates didn't end up as dogfood. Hell, I'd have made Svendo mode even taller. And maybe flaming eyes
. When a Hero does his Mr. Stag routine, you know who the Hero is, in the same way...like a big sign saying "target me!"...and Zerks were fine with that. If a Thane was trying to pull off this putative level 50 thing, oh let's call it "Thor's Greater This Is Really Going To Fucking Hurt", you'd see a chain wearer standing there waving their arms around with electricity building around them for 10 seconds or so. Like a big sign saying "Hit them FFS or we're char-grilled!". Means those who play the class get to pull off spectacular stuff (i.e. fun), and those who face them have a fair chance of stopping them pulling it off (i.e. balanced). ALL classes should have something like this.
The current Zerk situation/debacle being a good example. One of Xeno's points was that post-nerf, Zerks don't really have a point anymore. Mythic have talked about them becoming more "positional and reactive" tanks, but sorry, Savages already do that (they suck as primary tanks, but are great positional/reactive tanks), so what are Zerks for now? Hell, chanters (and this was another of the things that - rightly - pissed Xeno/the Zerk population off) do sick dmg, but because it's been what their class is basically about since day one, they won't take one in the face from The Nerf Bat (Cack-Handed Weapon, 100% Qual, 2,000 dmg, +50 Not Listening To TLs, +100 Buggering Up Classes Some Dev Doesn't Like). Zerks look at this and, rightly IMO, say "FFS that's what WE have been about since day one as well! Why do you take away our purpose as a class and leave them intact?". Now the point here being that Zerks had a point, a purpose, as a class, and now don't.
I think nerfing is the wrong way.
I think making most classes more and more "cookie-cutter" and generic is entirely the wrong way.
I think classes should be pretty damn uber at one thing, their raison d'etre, and have balancing weaknesses to make the game overall balanced.
Chanters do sick dmg, yes...but they fall down pretty damn fast if you can get your bit-of-metal-on-a-stick to interact with them personally. So in terms of game balance, they may be not too far out. Zerks should do pre-nerf dmg, but maybe lower their armour class perhaps (and in fact actual historical Berserkers as often as not used 2h weapons, may be something to look into)...but that dmg was what Zerks were for, and if you read past the flaming and trolling on the VNBoards thread about all this, you can see a lot of Zerks saying they were happy with the fact that they fell over a lot in fights - if they'd wanted good melee survivability they'd have played a Warrior, after all. In the same way, lowering chanters' dmg output would leave them floundering, with little distinctive purpose as a class; sure they'd still do nice dmg, but that's not what they're for. Make sure a chanter falls over damn fast if they get hit, and they're fine. Make sure Zerks have enough weaknesses to balance insane dmg output, and they'd be fine too. Give Thanes big ZAP!-ability with weaknesses and they'd be fine. You have a choice when you choose which class to play...don't want to fall over quick? Play a Warrior. Want to do sick dmg and aren't too fussed about suvivability? Fuck it, play a Zerk then.
Do you see what I'm getting at? Nerfing classes to try and get overall game balance is the wrong approach (and GET RID OF BUFFBOTS! Can't be game balance while BBs are around!). Go for uberness and balancing weaknesses, and I reckon the overall fun factor would be much higher for us all. Hell, if my Blademaster got wasted by that hypothetical uber Thane spell, at least I'd go out in a blaze of glory and it would look cool - I seem to recall most of the Albs who got munched by the Glacier Giant in that famous keep defence going ROFL at the sheer lunacy of it...
Discuss.
I just started a Thane...lot of fun so far...but I see people talking about specs a lot of the time that involve Stormcalling being at 44 or something. Now if I play a Thane, it's because I get to go ZAP! and stick a bolt of lightning up someone's arse, if I just want to hit stuff with a bit of metal on a stick - satisfying as that is - I have Warriors for that. So I'm keeping Stormcalling at 50...now if I were playing a Skald, I'd want to have Battlesongs at 50. Etc etc, you see my point; now...rather than nerfing classes, why not ensure that each classes' signature thing is really good? Make sure that the level 50 "thing" is really strong, and related to their defining class characteristic.
For example: make the 50 Stormcalling thing a HUGE lightning bolt that nukes whatever it hits and does some AOE zappage (not sure if "zappage" is a word, but I reckon it should be) to those nearby...but takes a good while to cast, i.e. is hard to pull off in melees. Think about it; you'd see that land near you in a mosh, and it'd be like (Quake 3 announcer voice) "HOLY SHIT!". You'd know a powerful Thane was nearby, and he/she could deep-fry you...would be fun for Thanes, would make battles spectacular, and yet the Thane would have to stand there for like 10 seconds or something to pull it off. So you have a chance to drop them.
When a Zerk Svendo'd, you knew exactly who you had to drop first to make sure your mates didn't end up as dogfood. Hell, I'd have made Svendo mode even taller. And maybe flaming eyes
. When a Hero does his Mr. Stag routine, you know who the Hero is, in the same way...like a big sign saying "target me!"...and Zerks were fine with that. If a Thane was trying to pull off this putative level 50 thing, oh let's call it "Thor's Greater This Is Really Going To Fucking Hurt", you'd see a chain wearer standing there waving their arms around with electricity building around them for 10 seconds or so. Like a big sign saying "Hit them FFS or we're char-grilled!". Means those who play the class get to pull off spectacular stuff (i.e. fun), and those who face them have a fair chance of stopping them pulling it off (i.e. balanced). ALL classes should have something like this. The current Zerk situation/debacle being a good example. One of Xeno's points was that post-nerf, Zerks don't really have a point anymore. Mythic have talked about them becoming more "positional and reactive" tanks, but sorry, Savages already do that (they suck as primary tanks, but are great positional/reactive tanks), so what are Zerks for now? Hell, chanters (and this was another of the things that - rightly - pissed Xeno/the Zerk population off) do sick dmg, but because it's been what their class is basically about since day one, they won't take one in the face from The Nerf Bat (Cack-Handed Weapon, 100% Qual, 2,000 dmg, +50 Not Listening To TLs, +100 Buggering Up Classes Some Dev Doesn't Like). Zerks look at this and, rightly IMO, say "FFS that's what WE have been about since day one as well! Why do you take away our purpose as a class and leave them intact?". Now the point here being that Zerks had a point, a purpose, as a class, and now don't.
I think nerfing is the wrong way.
I think making most classes more and more "cookie-cutter" and generic is entirely the wrong way.
I think classes should be pretty damn uber at one thing, their raison d'etre, and have balancing weaknesses to make the game overall balanced.
Chanters do sick dmg, yes...but they fall down pretty damn fast if you can get your bit-of-metal-on-a-stick to interact with them personally. So in terms of game balance, they may be not too far out. Zerks should do pre-nerf dmg, but maybe lower their armour class perhaps (and in fact actual historical Berserkers as often as not used 2h weapons, may be something to look into)...but that dmg was what Zerks were for, and if you read past the flaming and trolling on the VNBoards thread about all this, you can see a lot of Zerks saying they were happy with the fact that they fell over a lot in fights - if they'd wanted good melee survivability they'd have played a Warrior, after all. In the same way, lowering chanters' dmg output would leave them floundering, with little distinctive purpose as a class; sure they'd still do nice dmg, but that's not what they're for. Make sure a chanter falls over damn fast if they get hit, and they're fine. Make sure Zerks have enough weaknesses to balance insane dmg output, and they'd be fine too. Give Thanes big ZAP!-ability with weaknesses and they'd be fine. You have a choice when you choose which class to play...don't want to fall over quick? Play a Warrior. Want to do sick dmg and aren't too fussed about suvivability? Fuck it, play a Zerk then.
Do you see what I'm getting at? Nerfing classes to try and get overall game balance is the wrong approach (and GET RID OF BUFFBOTS! Can't be game balance while BBs are around!). Go for uberness and balancing weaknesses, and I reckon the overall fun factor would be much higher for us all. Hell, if my Blademaster got wasted by that hypothetical uber Thane spell, at least I'd go out in a blaze of glory and it would look cool - I seem to recall most of the Albs who got munched by the Glacier Giant in that famous keep defence going ROFL at the sheer lunacy of it...
Discuss.
