Charlotte Wyatt to be fostered

[Gamah]

so by that rationel you'd rather help 10 people who abused children and fucked their liver over but are rich and pay alot of tax and 5 who got damaged in a work accident on a factory? if the price was the same... that kind of ethics are strange...

Number 1. Why not put all your replys into one post?
Number 2. You're putting words in my mouth, because I don't see my saying anything like that. That's like me replying saying that you said "all poeple that pay taxes abuse children"

 

[Levin]

The whole story is just really, really sad.

In my opinion, it's impossible to fairly judge those involved without knowing all the details as well as not having been in that kind of situation oneself. The little girl's situation is horrible, but now that decisions have been made i hope she will be well cared for and loved by someone, and that she gets a fair shot at life.

Even if she will be forced to visit the hospital weekly throughout her life and walk around with tubes or whatnot, she will never have known anything different and it will come easier to her than it would to any of us.

 

[Jeremiah]

so by that rationel you'd rather help 10 people who abused children and fucked their liver over but are rich and pay alot of tax and 5 who got damaged in a work accident on a factory? if the price was the same... that kind of ethics are strange...

I think what he meant was that it was a lot of resources to spend on one person which could have potentially spent on others. Like, imagine there was a car crash. When the medics get there, 9 people need one pint of blood each, and 1 person needs 9 pints. If the medics only have 9 pints in total with them, it could be argued that the blood should be used to save 9 people rather than just one person. True its a decision no one would want to make (cos you are basically deciding to NOT save one person when technically you can) but in this case, I think we'd agree it is the best given the cirumstances.

 

[Huntingtons]

Number 1. Why not put all your replys into one post?
Number 2. You're putting words in my mouth, because I don't see my saying anything like that. That's like me replying saying that you said "all poeple that pay taxes abuse children"

no, but you're saying contibruting to the society > invalid in terms of medical welfare. its a harsh way of saying it, but that is what you're saying.
coz imo you cant put a price on a human life

i was writing them in seperate periods and was lazy to put all replys in one post, normally i would but was in a hurry!

 

[Bugz]

Unfortunately, with babies it's a delicate situation.

With adults and to an extent, children, they can voice their own rights about their will to live and their desires in life.

But someone who can't communicate for themselves in any way possible is a very crude subject and one that is hard for ANYONE to debate for or against.

 

[Gamah]

coz imo you cant put a price on a human life

What did I say chronic?

 

[Thorwyn]

Still... who gives a f*ck about the economy? What´s the point of contributing to an economy when the economy isn´t there for you once you´re unable to contribute? I mean.. that´s the entire idea behind our social system. You´re giving something and in return, you´re receiving something when you´re not able to contribute anymore. Some are in the lucky position to contribute a lot (lucky because being able to contribute means a more or less healthy life), some aren´t.
What you´re preaching is - plain and simple - social darwinism.

 

[Gamah]

Still... who gives a f*ck about the economy? What´s the point of contributing to an economy when the economy isn´t there for you once you´re unable to contribute? I mean.. that´s the entire idea behind our social system. You´re giving something and in return, you´re receiving something when you´re not able to contribute anymore. Some are in the lucky position to contribute a lot (lucky because being able to contribute means a more or less healthy life), some aren´t.
What you´re preaching is - plain and simple - social darwinism.

I'm not "preaching" anything, I am giving my opinion.

 

[Cadiva]

it makes me sick that people write: "Oh! but its not fit for living, its retarded and whatnot, how could it ever get a decent life?". what the fuck do you people know about how a life is good?

Well, let's put it this way.

Having grown up with a severely disabled cousin whose parents were too scared to have more children in case they ended up with another one with an incredibly rare genetic disorder (Prader-Willi Syndrome, go look it up, it's not a particularly pleasant situation, and that's just the start of her genetic problems and she wasn't even diagnosed for the first seven years of her life and her parents didnt' even know what it was until she was almost 14), I can say without a shadow of a doubt, it has ruined their lives.


It has made my aunt ill with Multiple Sclerosis, it has resulted in police arrest and questioning for my uncle when my cousin made up another of her accusations against him because she cannot distinguish between what is real and what is on television, it has made my brother, myself and my other two cousins always feel we have to be beyond reproach because of our disabled cousin.

It has left my grandparents constantly worried about what would happen to their granddaughter and they've had to watch their daughter's life deteriorate and her relationship with her husband become practically nonexistant outside the life of their daughter.

It has left her living a life in which she has to be monitored 24 hours a day and she cannot live a 'normal' life, she has no concept of what is or isn't normal.

So yes, I feel I've got enough life experience of someone with a severe genetic physical disability to be able to say it would have been better for my family if she had not lived past birth no matter how much we love her.

EDIT: As for the topic subject, I think it's incredibly sad but also amazingly naive of her parents to think that this wouldn't affect their relationship and that they really should have considered the long term implications before they went and fought in the High Court using public money to prevent their child from being resussitated if she stopped breathing again.

The lifetime costs of treating this child could have been put to far more good generally within the National Health Service. How many other services or treatments are not being provided because this NHS Trust has to ensure it has money to look after Charlotte Wyatt?

 

[Thorwyn]

I'm not "preaching" anything, I am giving my opinion.

Right, then delete preaching and replace it with "describing". Doesn´t change the point though.

 

[Elkie]

I think should lay of gamah a bit. He did say just HIS opinion on the matter, and I dont think anyone here has the right to say hes wrong. I dont agree with what he said but im not going to say hes wrong just because I might disagree with him.

 

[Thorwyn]

I think should lay of gamah a bit. He did say just HIS opinion on the matter, and I dont think anyone here has the right to say hes wrong. I dont agree with what he said but im not going to say hes wrong just because I might disagree with him.

Eh?
I`m not flaming him and I perfectly accept that this might be his opinion, but that doesn´t mean I´m shouldn´t say he´s wrong in MY opinion, especially on a fundamental thing like this. That´s what a discussion is all about.

 

[Chronictank]

Still... who gives a f*ck about the economy? What´s the point of contributing to an economy when the economy isn´t there for you once you´re unable to contribute? I mean.. that´s the entire idea behind our social system. You´re giving something and in return, you´re receiving something when you´re not able to contribute anymore. Some are in the lucky position to contribute a lot (lucky because being able to contribute means a more or less healthy life), some aren´t.
What you´re preaching is - plain and simple - social darwinism.

the point is that she has been clinically dead 3 times already, if you guys honestly believe she is "not going to know any different", wake up.
She will see what everyone else does on tv, in school (asuming she isnt so fucked in the head that she can go to school), everywhere she goes
She WILL see the difference, and she WILL feel shit because of it asuming she is capable of coherant thought because there is a significant chance the brain damage may remove that.
I have a severly disabled cousin who has brain damage among other things due to a car accident, and he is not living a life of reasonable quality.
He needs to go to the hospital every month because his immune system is fucked, so they need to pump the crap out of his lungs due to infections which is a painful process.
He lives on a ventilator, and 24/7 nurse support (fortunately his parents can afford it, so he doesnt rely on the NHS waiting lists), he is severly epileptic to the extent what he watches on tv needs to be screened before hand and cant even go for a shit on his own.
Now this little girl in all likelyhood is in for worse, are you seriously saying the poor thing deserves that?

 

[Thorwyn]

Again, it´s not up to you or me or anyone else to decide, what´s "reasonable quality". If anything, then it´s up to the person to decide that.
I´ve worked with handicapped people in the past, down syndromes, blind/deaf etc.etc. They all know that they´re "different", yet they´re all enjoying their lifes in their limits. And you wouldn´t believe how much fun they have. Maybe this particular case is different, but we´re talking about general things here.
As for your cousin: did you ever ask him whether he´d prefer not to live?

 

[Chronictank]

Again, it´s not up to you or me or anyone else to decide, what´s "reasonable quality". If anything, then it´s up to the person to decide that.
I´ve worked with handicapped people in the past, down syndromes, blind/deaf etc.etc. They all know that they´re "different", yet they´re all enjoying their lifes in their limits. And you wouldn´t believe how much fun they have. Maybe this particular case is different, but we´re talking about general things here.
As for your cousin: did you ever ask him whether he´d prefer not to live?

i would but hes unable to string sentences together

 

[Sparx]

Again, it´s not up to you or me or anyone else to decide, what´s "reasonable quality". If anything, then it´s up to the person to decide that.
I´ve worked with handicapped people in the past, down syndromes, blind/deaf etc.etc. They all know that they´re "different", yet they´re all enjoying their lifes in their limits. And you wouldn´t believe how much fun they have. Maybe this particular case is different, but we´re talking about general things here.
As for your cousin: did you ever ask him whether he´d prefer not to live?

i agree its not up to any of us to decide what is reasonable quality

 

[old.Tohtori]

Was anyone waiting for me to join in? *grins*

Ahem.

Ok.

The parents fought hard to keep a loved child.

The parents fought so hard it without a doubt strained their relationship.

They broke up because they didn't do the usual "stay together for the kids" crap and thought what was good for them also. Why ruin three lives?

The parents are now looking for a family to provide the, most evidently, more needy kid 'cause one parent can't take care of the kid fully.

That's how it, most likely, went down and i see nothing strange in it.

If i thought my kid, gods forbid me having any ever in any lifetime(can discuss that in another thread), wouldn't have a good enough life with me, i'd let 'em go aswell.

Though i wouldn't want anyone living a life like that anyway, but when they arrive, they have the same rights.

 

[Huntingtons]

the point is that she has been clinically dead 3 times already, if you guys honestly believe she is "not going to know any different", wake up.
She will see what everyone else does on tv, in school (asuming she isnt so fucked in the head that she can go to school), everywhere she goes
She WILL see the difference, and she WILL feel shit because of it asuming she is capable of coherant thought because there is a significant chance the brain damage may remove that.
I have a severly disabled cousin who has brain damage among other things due to a car accident, and he is not living a life of reasonable quality.
He needs to go to the hospital every month because his immune system is fucked, so they need to pump the crap out of his lungs due to infections which is a painful process.
He lives on a ventilator, and 24/7 nurse support (fortunately his parents can afford it, so he doesnt rely on the NHS waiting lists), he is severly epileptic to the extent what he watches on tv needs to be screened before hand and cant even go for a shit on his own.
Now this little girl in all likelyhood is in for worse, are you seriously saying the poor thing deserves that?

what if those things dont matter to your cousin. what if he has enough in his family loving him and supporting him. ask yourself honestly. what would you like more. to be dead or to be severely disabled? think about it for a long time dont just go and answer with first thought.

 

[Sparx]

what would you like more. to be dead or to be severely disabled? think about it for a long time dont just go and answer with first thought.

You can only assume seeing as you have absolutely no basis for comparison really

 

[Naetha]

As someone who has a chronic illness which has never been life threatening, but at times has left me in a severe amount of pain and with very little quality of life, I know at many points I just wanted it all to end.

Now my illness is something that seems to come and go, is generally under control, but if I was certain that there was nothing that could be done for it, and that I would be permanently in pain and with little quality of life, I would seriously consider suicide/assisted euthanasia.

How do things change when a) the person knows nothing other than chronic pain / poor quality of life, and b) the person cannot make these decisions for themselves?

Incidentally, can try and minimise flaming of other peoples' opnions - people are always going to have strong opinions on such a contraversial issue as this, but it is interesting to discuss it in a constructive way.

 

[Amanita]

Back in high school we did an RE study on a child who'd been born with severe mental disabilities. The doctors wanted to let the child die but the parents wanted to keep it alive, so they did. After a few years it became clear that the child really wasn't aware of things that were happening around him and he developed pneumonia and they let him die.

The question posed to me then is the same one here, and I did come to the conclusion that in his case it was better to let him go peacefully instead of continuing what could be considered a charade of a life.

The reason why my stance is different in Charlotte's case is that I don't believe she's old enough to tell whether her life is going to be absolutely terrible. And partly because of the sheer amount of bile that got thrown at their parents for deciding to do what might be the best for their daughter. I feel this thread has gotten a little off track now.

http://charlottewyatt.blogspot.com/
Some further reading.