Champs Viability For RvR Re:post from Hall of Valor

[llixeraxu]

" I have a celtic champion, currently 6L9, over 90 played days (20days+ crafting). I must say, I would have dumped the char if I am allowed to respec to another race/class. I would have played an LW hero instead. Why would I say that?

- champion has less RA
no prevent flight, no determination

(You may say prevent flight is not needed when champions has snare. but that's once a spell reuseable every 20sec. And without deterination, I cant be a very good tank when I am messed or rooted for 30secs+)

- champion has more expensive RA than pure tanks

(purge + IP alone will cost 6+6=12 points more than hero/BM, that's more than 1 Realm Rank difference)

- champion has hybrid weapon skill

(my LW is currently 50+16, strength at 329 when fully buffed (assume no MoArcane), but my WS cannot even hit 1600. When a buffed rr5 VW has over 1750 WS there is something wrong)

- champion can not spec as firbies

(extra 30 strength makes a lot of difference in Weaponskill, if you know what I am talking about)

- champion uses end when DD and debuff

(one of the most ridiculous ideas I have came across, does Enchanter uses end when he cast spells? I am ooe after 2-3 CF swings and full set of DD/debuff shouts, that makes champions ineffective in rvr)

If you are serious about playing a hib tank in RvR, play a firbie hero or BM, dont play a weak champion!!! I am saying this because nowadays no one wants to group with a hybrid who cannot save a bard or druid in gank group fighting of 8v8, when getting chain CC-ed. No determination sucks "

Posted By champs 05 Aug 2003

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Basicaly i want those with experience of champions to post there thoughts below RE: there position on if champs have been genraly forgotten and left behind. why they are or why they are not Viable for grouping, and why or why arnt they suitable for soloing.

What is the champions roll for you in groups. Are they the best class for this roll.

Discuss please, i for one am dissapointed in where champs are headed.

 

[llixeraxu]

Posted by a rr 9 champ from Pyrdwen:-
"Malevolencia Burnadette "
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Having played my champ a long time (rr9, /played 135days tho lotsa time spent getting LGM WC too) I have to say that.. yes this is mostly quite accurate

We give up a lot for being a hybrid and in return we get 2 instant interrupts (and yes that's really all they're good for in high end rvr, DD does at most 100 dmg every 15 seconds with capped int vs good resists, and snare is so ungodly useless that you're better off never using it so that the enemy doesn't get free root immunity)... really I think the tradeoff is not worth it :/

I finally gave in last week after having been bothered by these facts a long time and have rolled a pure tank instead. I hope to still get rr10 with my ickle luri champ one day... but now I just don't know...

 

[VodkaFairy]

Told you you're a gimp :/

Anyway I agree with the post champs sacrafice alot for kinda useless abilities... Champs aren't viable after bg's anymore, need a det tank for that.

 

[Danya]

Originally posted by llixeraxu
- champion uses end when DD and debuff

(one of the most ridiculous ideas I have came across, does Enchanter uses end when he cast spells? I am ooe after 2-3 CF swings and full set of DD/debuff shouts, that makes champions ineffective in rvr)

Guess he's never played a caster, enchanters use end when casting.

 

[llixeraxu]

Re: Re: Champs Viability For RvR Reost from Hall of Valor

Originally posted by Danyan
Guess he's never played a caster, enchanters use end when casting.

Not to the extent that Champions do, and with enchanters buy reducing there endurance pool does not nerf there main damage dealing ability.

 

[temseti]

Champions probably aren't as useful as they should be in a full RvR group. The lack of determination is a big downer because if the group is mezzed/stunned, theres no quicker way for them to break free (unless they have purge at a higher cost to bm/hero), while in the meantime the groups healers will be close to eating dirt.

In smaller confrontations, say 3 tanks vs 3 tanks or a one on one situation, champs specialites make them veru useful. I do think LW is best for a champion, its better to cause max damage while you've debuffed an enemy imo. But you have to look from an RvR situation and most people would sooner have a shield hero in the group. Champs and even BMs need a class defining aspect in high end RvR which will make groups want them rather than opting for slambots all the time. In short champs probably one of the best 1 on 1 tanks, but for high end rvr they don't cut. Best hope for finding groups is beign shield speced...but in that case you may as well of been a hero.

 

[temseti]

Re: Re: Champs Viability For RvR Reost from Hall of Valor

Originally posted by Danyan
Guess he's never played a caster, enchanters use end when casting.

It's miniscule use of end, champs need their end for styles so it hurts them a lot.

 

[Pempulla]

All casting 'uses' end, but having no end doesn't prevent from casting.

 

[Solarius]

Thats correct, there is a fixed 10% per spell useage for all spells cast. Doesn't affect casters/healers much (except when they want to sprint away), but it hurts hybrids overall dps alot, as mentioned by the Champ TL (Amongst others) frequently. Mythics response? No plans to address this

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by Solarius
Thats correct, there is a fixed 10% per spell useage for all spells cast. Doesn't affect casters/healers much (except when they want to sprint away), but it hurts hybrids overall dps alot, as mentioned by the Champ TL (Amongst others) frequently. Mythics response? No plans to address this

My Reaver generally has the same problems. A Champ has 5 instas that he could use in combat (not all useful in all situations though), and then possibly reuse. My Reaver also has 2 instas to be cast many times, 1 to be cast once and then 3 types of chant (need twisting to get more than 1 effect).

Options:

a) carry end regen <-- choose this option
b) don't blow all your end on spells, (use styles first then spells).
c) suck it up and fight unstyled

 

[hrun]

Imo the debuffs/dd the champ get doesn't make up for the loss of ws/hp + lack of decent tank ra's. Something needs to be done.. either give champs an ability which make them usefull in groups o r other abilites for improved solo fightig.. like speed or bolts etc (warloc).. wishful thinking though

but tbh I think the poor thanes need more love than we do atm.

 

[Amadon]

lol

think how casters feel

imo the problems are:
1) determination is WAY too powerful, any class that can get it is just so much better than a class that cannot

2) resist buffs/spellcrafting/AoM have made undebuffed spell damage basically negligeable.

Champs (Hybrids in general I guess) suffer from some of the problems that casters do, but at least they don't have to deal with interrupts.

With the changes to resists, point 2 might be dealt with, alleviating the problem somewhat for casters and hybrids.

With the RA review, I can only hope that Mythic do something to reduce the overpowering impact of determination, which may address point 1.

Having said that, a well played champ is still a valuable asset in a group (eg Cuth)

 

[rauno]

i say champ i still best offence tank in hib and if u have det if the rest of the grp is still mezzed(unless druid uses gp then everyone will be free anyway) u still cant too nothing to help grp they are dead anyway then.

Have anyone tryed Warth of the Champion whit caped int and aug acuity...? if it takes 30%+ hp out of enemy this means 3 champs can kill any zerg? hmm

 

[temseti]

See that makes little sense, if you can still cast with no end, why does it cost end in the first place?

 

[Cuthervaen]

Thanks Ama \o/

Well tbh a well played BM is at least as useful as a well played Champ, with PF. Champ + BM combo is very nice though as is any slow hitter + fast hitter assist combo.

Champ still got a nice frontloading capacity (CON debuff, use this first, + DD + first blow if LW can add up nicely) but is not really uber except on 1vs1.

I actually feel we're being less useful now that stats can go over cap, furthermore reducing debuffs utility, and we are certainly not deadly FOTM kill them all tanks. But still the class is far from broken. Guess debuffs could use a bit of upping now that everyone is SCed and buffed over caps.

Lack of determination is a bitch, especially in fights where u get to taste all kinds of CC until u're out of timers to track them :/. I'd rather see more use put to debuffs than fixes like self CON buffs that actually bring us "more in line" instead of making us more specific.

Maybe an acuity debuff? And a RA that would be useful like an "offensive purge" (cancels all of one target beneficial effects / buffs every 15 or 30 mins) would be nice. Last one would be hard to justify on a class that is already hard in 1vs1 though.

The problem in finding groups seems more to me that now with the "arms race" going on groups need 2 druids and 2 casters if not 3 to compete most of the time (talking about hib groups here), severly limiting the variety.

 

[Elric IA]

A lot of champ problems are not class specific such as

• Expensive RAs like purge and IP
• No determination
• Debuffs not taking item bonuses into account
• End usage of spells
• Snare spells being broken on damage

and these affect most hybrids.

The specific RA is one i think most champs ignore as it seems pretty poor.

I think we are not broken but we are not top of the food chain these days (if we ever were).

Maybe do new things like melee resist debuffs (savages get buffs so why not debuffs), debuffs scalable depending on casting stat giving benefit to the 23 points of INT we get levelling, aug actuity buffs work on us and also a new or seriously improved RA (if you are going to have a AOE DD which can only be cast every 30 mins the damage should be severly upped from what it is now which is about double damage of the level 50 DD; maybe give it triple or quadruple damage so it can really hurt).

 

[boni_ofdavoid]

Originally posted by rauno

Have anyone tryed Warth of the Champion whit caped int and aug acuity...? if it takes 30%+ hp out of enemy this means 3 champs can kill any zerg? hmm

Its a bit like void AOE, does little dmg, breaks all forms of CC know.

 

[Draggnarok]

Originally posted by llixeraxu
No determination sucks "

to quote the TL (may not be current one but i have this in a word file) of champs:
I will personally endevor to see to it champions NEVER get determination, i will do my best, whatever is nessecary - to prevent such a evident tilt in hibernia's favior. Champions are hybrids, and as such will recieve the bonus's and penalties that are appropriate. NEVER!

----------------------------------------------------
WTF to him, Reavers are SOOOOOOOOO much better than champs its upsetting to see it.
Goa/mythic seems to believe that u can slap a couple of usless debuffs, a dd and (after about 1 year) a self buff, take away hps, ws, str and call them a hybrid.... agreed, every circumstance may call on the debuffs for use of interupting casters: but now its rumoured in one of the later upcoming patches the debuffs wont even interupt casters: in a zerg debuffs can do nothing
if the current champ TL is reading this: you need to get champs updated for the zerg age my friend... cos doing pointiless things like improving Wrath of champion, a USLESS ra when u should be thinking: ok zergs.... not many rps to be had meaning champs are getting lower and lower RRs, thus IP should be lower points and zergs mean passive ras will be needed... many press harder for determination or perhaps a timed ra that hybrids from all realms can use.....
Im sure it doesnt work like that: ask for something long enuff with good arguments and u'll get it - but ffs we're being replaced by VWs, Heros and even BMs FFS
FIGHT BACK COS I REFUSE TO BELIEVE I HAVE TO REROLL TO A HERO OR RESPEC TO SWORD AND BOARD TO BE EFFECTIVE IN RvR!!!!

my late 2 cents

 

[rauno]

like Savage is hybrid class but it has determintionand and all other pure tank RA's wtf

i think all mythic bosses children play mid.

i am going to take Wild Arcana4 RA to get full use of the debuffes that are subose to make us that good(useful), i hope they will then!

 

[Karlo]

Somin really does need fixing here

 

[Arnor]

Originally posted by llixeraxu


- champion can not spec as firbies

this makes me sad, everyone should be able to spec in firby line

 

[llixeraxu]

Im affraid i have no idea who or where you got that from dragg but it isnt true.

The current Team Lead for champs is Jubal and its been him for as long as i can remember. And hes trying to get us Determination in the up and coing realm ability review.


I could also be wrong.. but i read it in one of his posts just to check before i came here to call you a filthy liar ;p

 

[llixeraxu]

Re: Re: Champs Viability For RvR Reost from Hall of Valor

Originally posted by Draggnarok
to quote the TL (may not be current one but i have this in a word file) of champs:
I will personally endevor to see to it champions NEVER get determination, i will do my best, whatever is nessecary - to prevent such a evident tilt in hibernia's favior. Champions are hybrids, and as such will recieve the bonus's and penalties that are appropriate. NEVER!

----------------------------------------------------
WTF to him, Reavers are SOOOOOOOOO much better than champs its upsetting to see it.
Goa/mythic seems to believe that u can slap a couple of usless debuffs, a dd and (after about 1 year) a self buff, take away hps, ws, str and call them a hybrid.... agreed, every circumstance may call on the debuffs for use of interupting casters: but now its rumoured in one of the later upcoming patches the debuffs wont even interupt casters: in a zerg debuffs can do nothing
if the current champ TL is reading this: you need to get champs updated for the zerg age my friend... cos doing pointiless things like improving Wrath of champion, a USLESS ra when u should be thinking: ok zergs.... not many rps to be had meaning champs are getting lower and lower RRs, thus IP should be lower points and zergs mean passive ras will be needed... many press harder for determination or perhaps a timed ra that hybrids from all realms can use.....
Im sure it doesnt work like that: ask for something long enuff with good arguments and u'll get it - but ffs we're being replaced by VWs, Heros and even BMs FFS
FIGHT BACK COS I REFUSE TO BELIEVE I HAVE TO REROLL TO A HERO OR RESPEC TO SWORD AND BOARD TO BE EFFECTIVE IN RvR!!!!

my late 2 cents

I could spend all day picking holes in this dude ;p

To point out a few things.. Wrath of the champion is a sucky ra.. maybe this is why it NEEDS to be changed / looked at rather than be totaly ignored. I belive this is a place in which champs could make big gains towards group viability. Look at Bunker of faith and Speed of sound realm abilities.

My second point is we all hate zergs , right? So why ask him to make champ viable for zerging.. This will encourage this style of play. I could go on .. but im off to work :s

 

[teramar]

I don't want my class to become besmurched with smelly 'bolgs. Champions are pure characters, not big lumbering things with bad personal hygiene

 

[llixeraxu]

Originally posted by rauno
like Savage is hybrid class but it has determintionand and all other pure tank RA's wtf

i think all mythic bosses children play mid.

i am going to take Wild Arcana4 RA to get full use of the debuffes that are subose to make us that good(useful), i hope they will then!

By making savages have expensive RA like champs and removing det would go a long way to replacing some balance.

Wild arcana 4 .. intresting, im taking it to level 2 1/10 debuffs criting would pwn lol. 2/10 for alot more VALUBLE realm points .. maybe not worth it .. who knows.

 

[teramar]

thats what annoys me about champs mostly, the cost of the RA's is ridiculous, By RR4 you expect to have more than 2 RA's really, i currently have IP/Fa2 and am saving for purge. So before i can start getting some Ra's that improve my damage or debuf crits i am gonna need to have about 1 million rp or something

 

[llixeraxu]

True. I wouldnt advise getting Ip as a champ. Get avoid pain instead.

 

[teramar]

i won't get rid of ip, i use ip for soloing stealthers in odins hehe, i killed meduza the other day

 

[rauno]

anyone know's how mutch max int(+75) increses DD damage and does it also increase Wrath of the Champion's damage ?

 

[old.Mitsu]

Wrath of the champion is useless.

Champion are fun to play but cant really compete with pure tanks at higher rr's sadly. Would change to hero in a heartbeat aswell.