Carrier Bag Tax

[DaGaffer]

Officially, Swedes and Norwegians 'consume' a lot less than us, but that's because the stats don't cover personal imports or even illicit moonshine consumption. In Sweden you have to buy your booze at state run off licences (Systembolaget? I think that's the name) that close at the weekend (or you did last time I was there). Loads of people run private parties with imported booze or their own moonshine and get trolleyed that way. And as I said, Denmark and other countries are awash with pissed up Swedes in search of cheaper booze every single weekend.

 

[Deebs]

DaGaffer is correct. Last time I was in Copenhagen I bumped into a load of Swedes in a nightclub. It is cheaper for them to travel out of Sweden on a weekend, get hammered and travel back.

Moving the problem from one country to another methinks.

I have to agree with many people here and I feel that I can say with fact that the last 10 years of my life in this country have been worse due to Labour. I lived under the Thatcher/Major years and it was nothing like it is now.

And I fucking hate the fact that we have a PM who just like his taxes made his way in through stealth. FUCKER.

 

[Raven]

yet the dimwitted masses will still vote for them, because 20 years ago the conservatives saved this country from ending up with an economy like Poland by changing our industry.

 

[Scouse]

yet the dimwitted masses will still vote for them, because 20 years ago the conservatives saved this country from ending up with an economy like Poland by changing our industry.

There's not much in it nowadays.

The underlying problem is our system of economics. You'd think with the whole capitalist democracy vs communist system would have produced a whole bunch of people who would have found the next way of ordering our society. If you think about it dispassionately, they're both spectacular failures.

In a way it's a shame that capitalist democracy won out. I don't like the communist system but capitalist democracy is the worst combination for getting anything done and is responsible, ultimately, for almost all of our society's ills...

 

[DaGaffer]

In a way it's a shame that capitalist democracy won out. I don't like the communist system but capitalist democracy is the worst combination for getting anything done and is responsible, ultimately, for almost all of our society's ills...

That's blatantly not true. In fact amongst economists, capitalist democracy is usually described as the "least worst" system. The problem with communist models is simply that they fail to consider the natural human desire to better oneself and one's family. Marxism is an ideology based on the nation state and loyalty to that rather than real human loyalty, which is to a much smaller group, usually family and friends or maybe ethnic group.

Capitalism creates inequality, but to be honest, inequality is part of the human condition (in fact its part of the condition of all life). The biggest problem with capitalism as it currently works is the structure of the financial markets; the modern banking system was a brilliant idea when it was first invented in 16-1700s, and now its broken. When you have a system where the default aspiration for most people starting a business is IPO-Sale-Fat profit, rather than the creation of a sustainable business and long term equity, then you've got a big problem. I'm lucky that I've made money out of stock options in the past, but when your whole company is working with its share price in mind, rather than its long-term future, you've got say the system is fucked up.

 

[djpringle]

In a way it's a shame that capitalist democracy won out. I don't like the communist system but capitalist democracy is the worst combination for getting anything done ...

Apologies for taking the quote slightly out of context but you do NOT want to try and do anything under a communist system.

Recently been trying to get married in Vietnam and talk about a bunch of completely unmotivated, unhelpful...in fact completely obstructionist bunch of fucktards. They delight in seeing you fail...with or without big wads of cash in manilla envelopes being slid under the table.

Currently jumping through hoops with our immigration system to get married back in Blighty and at least I case say the Foreign Office are giving hints on which way to jump through those hoops...and these are Viet nationals being helpful...shock horror!!!

 

[Scouse]

That's blatantly not true. In fact amongst economists, capitalist democracy is usually described as the "least worst" system.

You're both misinterpreting me - but handily you've already got yourself the answer. The phrase "least worst" itself indicates that we're not looking for better. I prefer "best yet"...

Communism failed. Yep. No argument here.

Capitalism has also failed. Blatantly. The point I was making was that we're not searching for another system. Or do you both believe there's only two possible systems for economic and social governance?

We could debate this all day - but I'll ask a question instead. Should economic and social governance be the only aims of an economic or political system?

If you broaden the horizons and look at this from a bigger angle than what one of these systems can do for you then it doesn't take a genius to figure out that we've got it way wrong.

 

[DaGaffer]

Unfortunately, the economists and political scientists would argue that all the practical models have already been tried (they'd also describe Soviet-style socialism as a centrally controlled command economy; "true" communism usually collapses after five minutes or turns into this), and everything we do is simply variations on a theme. After all, no one does "true" capitalism either.

 

[Wij]

Wow - super-tangent

Anyway, you have to base your system around 'the market' because ultimately the market is a real function of humans, not something created. Where the state doesn't accept its existence a black market will flourish instead.

Any system that doesn't accept that things are only worth what people will pay for them (like Marx's metaphysical Labour Theory Of Value) is pissing in the wind and/or believing in fairies.

Sure you tinker around the edges to prevent poverty and exploitation as best you can. As Gaff says no capitalist country is or ever will be 100% capitalist.

 

[MYstIC G]

you've got say the system is fucked up.

The way people value things is fucked up. For example, people that tell me an average house in Croydon is worth a quarter of a million pounds should be shot.

Getting back on track (and yes Labour are twats) this whole thing just shows how fucking retarded everyone is. The whole thing is horseshit. If you want less carrier bags, stop them being produced or ban them being made using the non-degradable materials, end of. Charging isn't the solution.

 

[Scouse]

Unfortunately, the economists and political scientists would argue that all the practical models have already been tried

I disagree fundamentally with this. Could get into a debate over it but you could write a book on it.

What I would say is that, in our capitalist democracies, there's too much for the rich to lose for any real attempt at change to be made.

I mean, if you were fucking rich would you give up your family's current financial security to create a better, fairer society or would you think "fuck the poor" and do everything you could to do protect it?

 

[Tom]

Nature has already demonstrated the best system available - the strong survive, the weak die. I'm not saying I'm either or that I'd ignore someone in trouble, but humans are animals and will always seek to look after themselves before others. The degree to which they allow that to cost anyone else is a matter of personal morality.

 

[DaGaffer]

Nature has already demonstrated the best system available - the strong survive, the weak die. I'm not saying I'm either or that I'd ignore someone in trouble, but humans are animals and will always seek to look after themselves before others. The degree to which they allow that to cost anyone else is a matter of personal morality.

This is way oversimplifying. The whole reason societies exist is because simple Darwinism hasn't proved to be the best system available.

However, you can apply the survival of the fittest model to systems. In Darwinist terms capitalism has proved to be the most successful (although like a virus it may yet kill its host).

I mean, if you were fucking rich would you give up your family's current financial security to create a better, fairer society or would you think "fuck the poor" and do everything you could to do protect it?

Two words. Bill Gates. If you're rich enough you don't have to give up financial security to do good. The very rich look like the problem, but its the middle classes who are far more likely to think "fuck the poor", even if they don't say it. Often because they're only a generation away from being "the poor" themselves. But, the most successful societies always have a middle class. Scouse, lots of people have written books about it, not least The Wealth of Nations, which still makes sense long after Das Kapital has proved to be complete bollocks.

 

[Tom]

Societies exist in the natural world too. Ask your nearest Lion or monkey. Or a shoal of fish.

 

[Trem]

Fuck Labour, making the country an absolute fucking joke to live in, but what is annoying me the most is Brown. I have never seen such a spineless coward in politics in all my years, infact I often forget he is our (not by way of votes) PM.

Aaaaanyways back on topic for likkle wijlet, we do our shopping online with Tesco and we always choose to not have carrier bags, so they bring the stuff in big plastic trays and you have to unload the food while the delivery guy waits. Does that sound like I am doing my bit for the enviroment? Well the real reason is the trays are fucking great for putting all my electric bits and tools in so every week I unload the trays and send Samm back to the driver with 1 less, its great when they rumble her and she has to say "one must be hidden under the table" as I laugh my tits off

When I am done with the trays I shall set fire to them and use them as flaming sledges.

 

[Scouse]

When I am done with the trays I shall set fire to them and use them as flaming sledges.

That sounds fucking great!

 

[JingleBells]

Yay for inaccurate scientific studies: Series of blunders turned the plastic bag into global villain - Times Online

 

[ECA]

BBC NEWS | World | Africa | East African ban on plastic bags
BBC NEWS | World | Africa | Kenya urged to ban plastic bags

Yeah, plastic bags are great.

 

[haarewin]

the m&s near my work (where i always go in the morning to grab some juice and/or a roll) has been charging for bags since january as part of their pilot. i rarely took bags anyway, but the impact it's made on how many bags they give out is pretty amazing.
shops give out hundreds of carrier bags a day. how many of those will be reused and how many will end up in a dump?
lets say, in one town there are 50 shops. (there are more than 100 shops in the shopping mall at the edge of bristol) if each shop gives out 75 a day, then after a week one town has brought 26,250 bags 'to the masses'.
lets say 10% of that is reused/recycled (because lets be honest, the family that shops in sainsburys and takes about 11 bags per week never take them back next time to reuse them, do they?) that means that 23,625 are likely to end up in a landfill, where they take ages to breakdown. now 23,625 in one town in one week makes 1,228,500 per year. this doesn't take into account all the other towns in the country. i think this is a massive underestimation by the way.
it just seems so bloody wasteful.

 

[ECA]

the m&s near my work (where i always go in the morning to grab some juice and/or a roll) has been charging for bags since january as part of their pilot. i rarely took bags anyway, but the impact it's made on how many bags they give out is pretty amazing.
shops give out hundreds of carrier bags a day. how many of those will be reused and how many will end up in a dump?
lets say, in one town there are 50 shops. (there are more than 100 shops in the shopping mall at the edge of bristol) if each shop gives out 75 a day, then after a week one town has brought 26,250 bags 'to the masses'.
lets say 10% of that is reused/recycled (because lets be honest, the family that shops in sainsburys and takes about 11 bags per week never take them back next time to reuse them, do they?) that means that 23,625 are likely to end up in a landfill, where they take ages to breakdown. now 23,625 in one town in one week makes 1,228,500 per year. this doesn't take into account all the other towns in the country. i think this is a massive underestimation by the way.
it just seems so bloody wasteful.

but but but! think of wijs dogpoo!

 

[Wij]

the m&s near my work (where i always go in the morning to grab some juice and/or a roll) has been charging for bags since january as part of their pilot. i rarely took bags anyway, but the impact it's made on how many bags they give out is pretty amazing.
shops give out hundreds of carrier bags a day. how many of those will be reused and how many will end up in a dump?
lets say, in one town there are 50 shops. (there are more than 100 shops in the shopping mall at the edge of bristol) if each shop gives out 75 a day, then after a week one town has brought 26,250 bags 'to the masses'.
lets say 10% of that is reused/recycled (because lets be honest, the family that shops in sainsburys and takes about 11 bags per week never take them back next time to reuse them, do they?) that means that 23,625 are likely to end up in a landfill, where they take ages to breakdown. now 23,625 in one town in one week makes 1,228,500 per year. this doesn't take into account all the other towns in the country. i think this is a massive underestimation by the way.
it just seems so bloody wasteful.

Let's say 10% ?

Feel free to say it but it's bolox. Carrier bags get re-used for all kinds of things.

According to that Times article above carrier bags make 0.3% of landfill. Campaign about something important ffs.

 

[haarewin]

Let's say 10% ?

Feel free to say it but it's bolox. Carrier bags get re-used for all kinds of things.

According to that Times article above carrier bags make 0.3% of landfill. Campaign about something important ffs.

if 'reused' means chucked away with dog poo or rubbish in, it isnt reused, is it? its thrown out.

 

[Wij]

if 'reused' means chucked away with dog poo or rubbish in, it isnt reused, is it? its thrown out.

It's been re-used for something that someone would otherwise have bought a new plastic bag for in that case so it's perfectly good re-use.

 

[Deebs]

Any carrier bag I get never gets thrown straight in the bin, sometimes they end up being used to store stuff in the garage or my loft, other times I use them as bin liners. If they serve another purpose between the the time you put your shopping in them and the time they end up in a bin they have been reused and stopped something else being used instead.

As for Brown, Trem why did you have to bring that ***** name up.

 

[Ch3tan]

he stealthed his way into this thread, just like he did into number 10.

Maybe he should star in the next MGS game? Solid Brown? Brown Snake?

 

[Wij]

Solid Brown? Brown Snake?

How appropriate. Those sound like euphamisms for turd.

I just wish I didn't have to select another party at the next election. I just want to tick a box marked 'Not Gordon Fucking Brown'.

 

[bob269]

the m&s near my work (where i always go in the morning to grab some juice and/or a roll) has been charging for bags since january as part of their pilot. i rarely took bags anyway, but the impact it's made on how many bags they give out is pretty amazing.
shops give out hundreds of carrier bags a day. how many of those will be reused and how many will end up in a dump?
lets say, in one town there are 50 shops. (there are more than 100 shops in the shopping mall at the edge of bristol) if each shop gives out 75 a day, then after a week one town has brought 26,250 bags 'to the masses'.
lets say 10% of that is reused/recycled (because lets be honest, the family that shops in sainsburys and takes about 11 bags per week never take them back next time to reuse them, do they?) that means that 23,625 are likely to end up in a landfill, where they take ages to breakdown. now 23,625 in one town in one week makes 1,228,500 per year. this doesn't take into account all the other towns in the country. i think this is a massive underestimation by the way.
it just seems so bloody wasteful.

I hardly think charging people another 5p per bag is gonna make them stop and think and carry their shopping home in their arms, it's yet another stealth tax for the do-gooders. Most people when doing a big shop take bags with them anyways, or like posted use said bags for other purposes, this attitude is a little naive to say the least.

And I do remember some years back bags had to be paid for anyways, not because of the environment, but because they cost money, so it aint gonna make anybody think any differently, only to think the country has gone environmentaly insanse