Camouflage explained

[censi]

Just for those that didnt know....

NEW ARCHER ABILITY - CAMOUFLAGE

A new ability for Archers has been added - that of Camouflage. The purpose of Camouflage is for the Archer to be able to move about unseen, but not be able to use it to engage in stealthed combat. We want archers to be able to perform their scouting duties, but not become the overpowering solo killers that they once were.

Camouflage is awarded to all Scouts, Hunters, and Rangers at level 30. You use it just like any other ability - first, you must be hidden (via your normal stealth icon). Then, drag the Camouflage icon to your quickbar and click on it to activate the ability. When you are Camouflaged, essentially you are invisible from the assassin See Hidden ability - however, you abide by all the rules of being stealthed normally; i.e. you have a greater chance of being visible to those that are higher level than yourself.

When you are a camouflaged, you abide by all the rules of stealth. You will move at your normal stealthed speed, and you will become visible if you engage in combat (take damage, attack someone, shoot someone with a bow, etc.). Please note that you can Camouflage any time ten minutes after your last attack. This makes Camouflage useful to scout around unseen, but it will not help you in combat, since you will not be able to use the skill for 10 minutes after you attack somone else.

 

[thebinarysurfer]

Yup - hence solo now becomes a little more viable for rangers.
Admittedly ur fair game once you take the shot and for 10 mins after but as i'm sure most of us find - getting in position without some cute little kobold or saracen wandering up behind you and introducing you to mr 700 odd damage critical strike is most of the battle.

Well done mythic - now all we have to do is get them to take those casters bladeturns away lol

 

[censi]

nah, I would argue a strong case for lowering the timer on re-using camoflage down from 10 mins to 3 mins....

Also they need to create an interface for allowing us to switch arrows rather than having to keep moving arrows around in our pack.... Arrow choice will be the key factor in playing a ranger effectivly soon.

e.g. a blunt/pierce/slash interface.

perhaps give all archers 2.5 point progression and we are back in busines as a viable class again.

 

[thebinarysurfer]

nah i wouldnt go that far - maybe drop the timer to 5 mins aye but 2.5 spec would make us overpowered again and guess who'd get beaten with the nerf stick in due time - best to undertweak imo.

 

[Eleasias]

Camouflage explained




it sucks and you shouldnt do any specs based on this utterly useless skill

 

[old.Akirai]

lol no 10 mins is good. its for SCOUTING not for Mruberfuckingkillingmachinearcherwhocantbedetected

 

[old.Odysseus]

Mruberfuckingkillingmachinearcherwhocantbedetected

Thats what i made my char for. My char was a Mruberfuckingkillingmachinearcherwhocantbedetected when i created it. I went through hell to get it to 50.

And what made it so uber was that i could stealth right in front of everyones nose, meaning i could pick lowcons out of a group with no risk.

The nerf that mythic wants is to get rid of the stealth-right-under-chasing-skalds-nose-and-get-away.

Camoflage does that.

10 minutes is a long time to be vulnerable and since minstrels dont get camoflage I imagine a lot of assassins will keep See Hidden, thus maintaining solo sniping at its present level.

What worries me though is the increasing number of casters that solo. That wouldnt happen if archers still soloed.

 

[old.Xarr]

Once you activate camo you have it on until you attack someone?

If so it's a pretty nice ability.

 

[Hatt]

crap.

Give us safe fall and climb insted.
And remove hunters pets and give them evade 3 like scouts and rangers.

 

[hotrat]

Give minstrels camouflage as well, I don't see why they introduce see hidden to nerf snipers, then do a half fix for snipers and leave minstrels with nothing.
10 min timer is quite long but it at least means each time u enter emain or whereever you can't be spotted.

Minstrel stealth is now officially useless, at least we get respec next patch but a whole line is wasted so we have to spec high in weapon and become a skald with gimped hits.

Bring on Cuthervaen's great see hidden fix

One question to hibs and mids, was a minstrel ever as overpowered as a scout before see hidden?

I remember the old days when snipers used to kill mages solo even when they were stood in the middle of a alb zerg. I can't imagine minstrels ever did this, the only thing they were good at is killing single or duo targets, much the same as an infiltrator. Mind you even infiltrators could kill sitting mages in the middle of a zerg before the crit and stay hidden nerf.

Scout can still solo well if he sticks near a friendly zerg, cus of the high damage and the long range, but its just not as fun.

 

[-Lonewolf-]

Once again I quote summin like Mythic's infamous words:

"We want to create a group environment and try to lessen the opportunities to solo...."

Or summin like that hence no nerfing of see hidden

 

[old.Odysseus]

"We want to create a group environment and try to lessen the opportunities to solo...."

well how about giving archers (scouts in particular) something that group wants?

would it be so bad if we had one of the following to offer a group:
a) 16 sec pbt
b) half strength pow song
c) small heals
d) single mez
e) instaheal other, timed
f) root arrows

yes yes i'll get flamed for suggestion this, i know.

what Mytic is _doing_ is not the same as quoted above, its more:
"We want to create a group environment BY lessening the opportunities to solo...."

 

[old.BJ|Bored]

its a crap policy tho

what about all us antisocial gits who hate grouping and want to be able to solo, should still be a viable option imo so u should be able to solo any class, just not be able to kill anyone other than another solo'er

and yes i can think of a way this works
um er er :E

 

[censi]

We want to create a group environment and try to lessen the opportunities to solo....

All they have done is make the only viable solo class an assasin....
If there aim is to make this a group environment game, then that must be accross the board.... dont just force half the stealthing community to group....

 

[old.Nol]

if minstrel stealth is so gimped, then how come Alpha & Aussie(and his speedbot Anarki) gets so many kills in the gorge? Old stealth meant you could play stupid, now it requires some brainpower and tactics to nail people.

 

[old.BJ|Bored]

its gimped mainly as its only use is to get away from other non-assasin classes, for which you need like 20 stealth points in, not the 39+ that most have specced.

its also gimped due to the paranoia about every1 using radar cheats that uncovers you

 

[old.Odysseus]

if minstrel stealth is so gimped, then how come Alpha & Aussie(and his speedbot Anarki) gets so many kills in the gorge? Old stealth meant you could play stupid, now it requires some brainpower and tactics to nail people.

brainpower? speedbot? buffbot at atk?

I think u answered your own question as to 'how they get so many kills'.

Now, instead of stealthing away from under ppl's noses, u run away at speed 5, SoS if need be.

skills and brain has very little to do with that imo.

eidt:
It was never a secret that minst and scout make a perfect couple, but 'couple' and 'solo' aint excactly compatible, now are they

 

[-Lonewolf-]

The assassins will be nerfed soon don't you worry

Though I have no inside knowledge I am just splurting crap as always

 

[old.Finster]

playing an assassin with the see hidden ability i want to post an opinion...

archers definitly were overpowered. you still can shoot at a range for damages that exceed nukes vs decent resist and that i can t match in dps with 2hand weapon. you do not have to walk up to your target and you start your escaping with a head start of 1500+ range.

the solo archer was an element of grief in the game that mythic obviously didn t want. generally attacks without impunity have been nerfed (aka 1hit kills for assassins).

i totally agree that see hidden is an inadequate answer, as it removes skill and thinking from stealther hunting and deprives assassins of their primary targets: the solo archers. i think correct answer would be to adjust TS and SH in a way they no longer are total nobrainers, but assist in the hounding out of a spotted stealther anyways. make it a gradual skill that you can spec up to improve detection.

still the archer has to bear in mind, that a caster who attacks for similar amounts of damage at lower range does not enjoy either studded armour, melee proficiency or stealth. that is the point it has to be balanced at.

@hotrat: minstrels like anarki and alpha are the single most dangerous solo class you can meet out there. yes, they were overpowered and even now i usually can t attack them with hope of success as long as i m alone, even if i purge mez.

Finster, <Nolby Pride>

 

[Glottis_Xanadu]

Lol Finster, you want to be able to solo a minstrel while you are an assasin? That shows how insanely overpowered assasins are. You asses are even trying (and sometimes succeed) in ganking my lvl 50 armsman. Stop the complaining. There was no need to introduce the see hidden, as a scout would become unhidden each time he/she would shoot. Most casters have a self bt anyway, making Albion scouts even more gimped, as their main "asset" was their longbow, with longer drawing times. A CS takes 5 seconds with a longbow, about 3 with a hunting bow, but then your range is shorter, and damage output is also less.
So you need to shoot, hoop the caster does not see his bt disappear, and then shoot again...
Scouts cannot see assasins anyway, and against tanks they are pretty useless, and a tank can take out his shield and engage the scout to close in.
So there never was a scout that could one shot any class to start with.... Yes, they have a little edge compared to assasins, but in return you have no trouble with a bt, and you can vanish right in front of people. Have often been right next to a stupid assasin as a tank, only to see them vanish.
This see hidden crap has ruined the game for scouts, made them into a zerg tool. Only thing they can do now is hope Albions zerg around emain, and there are loads of wall fights. They are good at that.
Scouts were meant to be played solo, people wanted to play scouts solo.. why should MYthic force them into groups?
What group wants them? They have no crowd control, no real great damage. Maybe they should offer special shots, so a scout can snare an enemy by shooting them in the leg for example, or slow down their attacking speed by shooting them in the arm.
Now that would still be believable, and improve the grouping abilities of a scout. Head shot could lead to a stun for example..
Regards, Glottis

 

[old.Finster]

am i that much out of order? i agreed that see hidden is overnerfing scouts. and is it so irrational an assassin might try for a minstrel, who afterall is a music class with crowd control capabilities and stealth at 1.5 spec points, while assassin is a pure 1 on 1 fighter with superior evade vs the single target he faces?

assassin enjoys tanklike dmg output, only his defensive setup is much weaker and centered on fighing a single target in front.

i consider myself justifiably nerfed by the 1shot visible nerf (i do not whine, it had to come).

if there are assassin nerfes in the woods i d point at the styles which chain on evade. they were never meant for the evade values reached with dodger and are consecutively overpowered (aka frosty gaze, diamond back, dragonfang). these styles are what makes assassins able to solo some tanks.

Finster, <Nolby Pride>

 

[old.Odysseus]

mythics goal : make everyone group play.

mythis means: ruin the soloability (primarily archers, assassins will maybe be nerfed too - but with respecs introduced i doubt it)

...

bah ill stop writing, this will just turn into another mythic-flame/nerf-whine.

IM PISSED.

only time u'll see Odysseus is when i cant be arsed to drag the theurg outta lyon to defend excal, retake keeps, or when i fletch. (mostly the latter i suspect)

 

[censi]

archers definitly were overpowered. you still can shoot at a range for damages that exceed nukes vs decent resist and that i can t match in dps with 2hand weapon. you do not have to walk up to your target and you start your escaping with a head start of 1500+ range.

The damage only exceeds nukes versus cloth... Mage nuke tanks for 500 damage, archers can do jack shit against tanks...

Archers never needed nerfing... But like odyseus, I think I have had this arguement many time....

Like I have said b4, its just all the crap mages that dont know how to play their class that gave the impression archer were overpowered. (no other class is bothered by archers to much)

Key to survival from an archer attack as a mage is to make a quick decision whether the archer is close enough for you to stunn or mezz b4 you die... if he isnt close enough you have to run fast or die

If you can get a spell off:
If your a theurg all you have to do is insta stun your target and set pet...

If your a sorc all you have to do is mezz your target...

Fire Wiz stun kill..

cabby stun set pet....
etc....
etc....
every mage class has the tools to fight back....

most of the time you shoot someone they run around in circles and dont actually start doing summin until they are half dead....

Thats why archers got nerfed.....

(not having a dig at every mage out there... theres loads of gr8 mage players to of course)

 

[kinadold]

The biggest problem for archers these days is, if no group you can
pretty much sit at tk. When you look at archer skills you will see they are not groupfriendly. No speed, no melee, no spell no stealth anymore.

So camouflage will atleast make you able to move around more freely to the battles if you cant get a group.

I dont mind see hidden forcing archers to group thats Mythics
choice, but Mythic should really have given something groupwise to compensate. Same goes for minstrels.

Archer dam is much lower than a dd nuker, but he has longer range and stealth to move into positions around the battlefield. So in the big battles he can be compared to any dd nuker.

The problem is in the popular speed groups. Mythic should somehow make it much more attractive for groups to take an
archer. These days most other classes are more usefull. Often
in these speedgroups a target is dead before an archer hit it.
Some might say use a faster bow, but then you could aswell use
your knife.

An archer need high stealth or he will unstealth before shooting.
Now when you look at his dam, and you consider nearsight classes and bt/pbt, then take into account stealth is much less useless now, archers just lost 1/4 of their skillpoints. You know
stealth is not important but you still need it, to be able to function.

The point about see hidden is, that archers were nerfed into groups, but nothing groupwise were given. More or less leaving
most archers as solo vultures who follow the zergs around.

Also look at the new archers who dont have alot of RA's. They cant get a group and will have very little chance to survive an
assasin.

It took Mythic 1 year to implement 9'th and 10'th quickbutton. Will take them 5 more to give archers any groupabilities.

 

[Tranquil-]

Originally posted by censi
If you can get a spell off:
If your a theurg all you have to do is insta stun your target and set pet...

Theurgs haven't got insta stun.

Fire Wiz stun kill..

No stun there either, allthough earthline was going to get ae stun I think, but Mythic figured out it would be overpowered, so they removed it again.

every mage class has the tools to fight back....

Every HIB mage..

Hmz... Over to something else more serious.. my personal wishlist.. I'd like passive true sight with no rangelimit, an insta pbaoe 20 min stun with 50k radius..no recast timer, and craftable bt breaking 457k damage arrows which enables 1ms drawtime and does all damagetypes to all members of the realm of the target I'm shooting at. Oneshooting entire realms, mwaha.. givz rp..

Yes, I'm <yawn> going to sleep now. <puts wishlist under pillow>

 

[Tank Init]

there are no gimped chars only gimped players

 

[Tranquil-]

Originally posted by Tank Init
there are no gimped chars only gimped players

To a certain extent.

 

[Arthwyr]

Regarding camouflage, see hidden, assasin nerfs etc ...

Lets Start with camouflage. Camouflage restores the ability to scouts, hunters, rangers to scout period. If you wanted it go back to the way it was before, tough luck you were overpowered and in some ways still are. The 10 minute timer on camouflage might seem long but when you are soloing and moving stealthed ask yourself this. How many solo targets are you going to encounter within 10 minutes. And how long does it take a chasing assassin to catch you if you are both moving stealthed cause few assassins I know will drop stealth to run down a stealthing archer. As far as I'm concerned the ability should be given to albs only since the scouts only defense is a shield slam compared to speedbuffs and pets ...

See hidden here i think mids and hibs have the advantage since albs have 2 classes with stealth vunerable to see hidden while the other realms have one. Often the see hidden works more as a lifesaver for assassins then as an offensive ability. Picture yourself walking in emain with your assassin class and your freshly specced RA see hidden. Ah archer class ahead and one to the left, stay clear. If he should be solo 9/10 you can be damn sure that there is one or more assassins close to him. btw If you see another archer close, forget about attacking him. Jump one and the other one pumps 3 arrows in you, dead assassin.

Wich brings us to the assassin himself. Overpowered ... why cause he can take just about any class out one on one. In order to do so (take ANY class out one on one) the assassin must get his pa and most important CD in. (perforate artory = opening, Creeping death is 9 sec stun move that chains from it) PA had a fairly small margin of error, too far = miss, slightly wrong angle is miss or get uncovered by whatever aoe effect ... your screwed. Lets go into detail
-Vs mid healer ... cd miss = insta mezz he runs or calls for help your dead
-Vs Hib caster: good one, miss your pa cd and you get a nice 9 second stun quickast and 2 nukes to polish you off
-Vs heavy tanks ... pray your evade works or your dead in 3 hits max
-Vs skald = fun miss cd and its insta mezz skald runs off and comes back with buddies.
Even if you manage to get a nice fight missing your PA combo, if you drag it out too long you are exposed, if you are soloing lonx exposure is a certain death. So why are you ppl about assassins being overpowered well its thx to buffs. Every player with decent buffs is overpowered only it shows better on assassins because they can pick their own fights making them seem invincible.
I can imagine running into a 1500 Hp instead of 1000 and 340 dex instead of 216 infil with IP armed and dodger 3 to complement his evade 7 can be a pretty unpleasant experience.
Upto this point I have been playing unbuffed 95% of the time but im leveling a buffbot as well since it seems to be the only way to get a fight vs other assassins on even therms.

Mythic could end the problem pretty simple but they won't because it would hurt them financialy. Putting a range on buffs would reward players playing in a group and therefore encourage the grouping in RvR for all classes. It would also make soloing ANY class alot harder and an assassin jumping a tank would actualy be taking a risk as the fight could go either way. To top it off it would make encounters between solo players (mostly stealthers anyhow) more interesting as both would be unbuffed. Too bad its not interesting to implement ranged buffs since all those players with a buffbot account would no longer have use for it.

ah well just my 2 copper on the issue its late :O and i hope it made some sense.

 

[old.Odysseus]

short version of that post would be:
a) archers were and are still overpowered
b) see hidden is a fair nerf
c) assassins are not overpowered

nop, didnt make sense to me. at all.




------

camoflage gives us back the ability to scout ... well i didnt make my socalled 'scout' for scouting, i made it for sniping or at least soloing some rp.

i made the choice of class - an informed choice - based on a certain ruleset. all of a sudden that ruleset changes and i no longer have the char i wanted. gimme a reclass and ill stfu.

imagine redefining assassins so they can no longer scout, nor assassinate', but instead being a melee char with poison. fun? think not.

 

[old.chesnor]

Originally posted by old.Odysseus
i made the choice of class - an informed choice - based on a certain ruleset. all of a sudden that ruleset changes and i no longer have the char i wanted. gimme a reclass and ill stfu.

imagine redefining assassins so they can no longer scout, nor assassinate', but instead being a melee char with poison. fun? think not.

It didn't say anywhere archers would be solo killing machines with no natural enemy.....not in my daoc manual anyway. I know the archer nerf hit you guys hard, but admit it ffs, you were overpowered. It wasn't so much that we would die to you all the time (just most of the time) but that with the stupid range on your bows which hit for stupid damage, and stupid invisibility we could never actually kill you. In fact, very few classes could actually kill you if you had the initiative, and that just plain sucked.
It may have been fun for you being teh uber in the frontiers, but it was very far from fun for your countless victims.

That said, all Mythic have done is replace one stupidly overpowered stralth class with another. wtg Mythic