Caer Sidi Raid:- Take 3

[**Aligro**]

O.k would just liek to start out by saying thankyou to all those who could be there on saturday.. we had an excellent raid (despite our numbers) and we managed to get up to the point where the yanks got up to and died with 300!! people http://www.icguild.net/sidi/

There will be another raid this coming saturday.. same time.. same place (11:30 am gmt goth harbour). this time i want more people to come.. COME ON GUYS WE WANNA SEE APOC.

Sadly getting to the 9th keylord and dieing isnt enuf but there are strategies fo killing the one we all died on..

And i also have news from the coming patch 1.60

"In a dungeon, if an item or body is underwater, you should be able to click on it correctly. You used to get the "player is not visible" message."

I guess there wont be anymore probs with silencer..

i also have a question.. do the weapons that are proposed to be "buffed" (as oposed to nerfed) that have all ready been dropped get "buffed" with the patch?

Any questions.. i am here

 

[g0ldenbone]

I'll be there

 

[Adralend]

Count me in as a Reserve if you dont get enough 50's

 

[Adralend]

LoL g0lden

 

[quinthar]

I'll be there.

 

[old.Ramas]

i also have a question.. do the weapons that are proposed to be "buffed" (as oposed to nerfed) that have all ready been dropped get "buffed" with the patch?

In general items that have dropped previously do not change.

In general quested items either change immeaditely (if the buff is good in 100% of all circumstances) or have to be handed in for a swap with the quest NPC (if the original item can be useful any any circumstance whatsoever).

There are, of course, exceptions.

 

[Apathy]

Sort out the lotto system in advance. If it's not done drop by drop, with people going for items then I don't think I'll bother going on my fourth raid.

Only people who are there from the start of the raid until the end should go in the lotto. Tsk.

a.
*

 

[old.Ramas]

Ditto what apathy said.


Lotto system needs to be published in advance. (about puclishing the rules - not really about the particualr type of lotto)

While I have a prefence for certain types of lottery, it is, at the end of the day, far more important to publish the rules than it is to pick any particular set.

 

[Pin]

In particular, lotto based on characters attending the raid who can actually use the item is BAD imo:


e.g. note my sig. I can either bring my full-earth specced theurg, or I could bring my infiltrator. Which do you think would be the more valuable to the raid, and which do you think I would want drops for?


Anyway, as stated above, make a clear statement of how they'll be distributed in advance please.

 

[Apathy]

Take whichever char you want the items for. Simple as that, really. It would be nice if more support classes came on the raids, but altruism in this game is even more fruitless than altruism in real life.

"lotto based on characters attending the raid who can actually use the item" is only BAD for those people who want as much as they can for their particular set of chars. Taking an earth theurg and taking an inf drop away from an inf who can't contribute something like that to the raid is mean and lootwhore-ish.

A lotto system based on who remains standing and who can actually use the item for the char present means that the people in attendance will get a flat chance of a material reward for the effort they put in. Regardless of whether that effort involved going AFK with PBT on, healing like crazy, doing nothing but swap between heat and cold debuffs, relog pulling, thwacking away at mobs with a weapon.

Taking an earth theurg just so you can connive yourself an inf drop is lame and reminds me of chars who try and get into exp groups with their buffbots.

a.
*

 

[[PS]Venom]

I'd love to go along. Reckon a lone 50 pallie can find a group space

 

[Pin]

Not sure I understand what you are saying Apathy.

My point was I want the raid to succeed, so I want to bring the character who'll contribute most to the raid. In my case that would be my earth theurg over my inf.

I also couldn't give a stuff what items my theurg has, and until this weekend he was wearing green armour, but I do care what items my inf has.

How is it loot-whorish if I want items for 1 character over another? Sure there are people who don't want any items for any of their characters, but not many.

 

[Apathy]

"I do care what items my inf has."

Then bring the inf, just like many people have done so already. That statement would also back up "loot whoreish". If you want items for one char over another, then just bring that char. It's fairer on the people who have no choice but to bring a certain class which has a lower perceived "value".

All chars are perfectly useful on the Sidi raid. Ultimately, it's numbers that count and getting as many people on a mob as possible.

As someone who has been on all the raids right through to the end (Upwards of five hours for something that wasn't quite a success. Urgh.), it irritates me to see people claim things for those who left halfway through, or for alts who weren't present, or for a guildmate who might want it. I don't bother going for drops for myself since I simply can't use them on the char I take on Sidi raids. However, I have plenty of high level chars that could use any of the drops. But out of respect for the people who attended and stuck with it, I'd rather see them get a drop.

Perhaps you're worried your inf will be useless or unable to geta gorup. That won't be the case, so bring it and hope some inf junk drops. I wouldn't count on being given any greater chance of getting the drops you want just because you brought a PBT theurgist. But I would hope that bringing a theurgist would NOT give you any claim equal to the infs present and involved directly with the raid.

A clear statement on the lotto would be appreciated. Yesterday was just disgusting.

a.
*

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by ApathyEndymion
Then bring the inf, just like many people have done so already.

That's exactly what I will be doing. I'm just saying that I would rather bring my theurg as we all know that he is more valuable. I'm not saying that I should be given more right to getting any drop than anyone else. I'm not saying that people should be claiming drops for alts that they have.

I much prefer distribution by guild, ideally based on turnout.

Originally posted by ApathyEndymion
All chars are perfectly useful on the Sidi raid. Ultimately, it's numbers that count and getting as many people on a mob as possible.

An inf is just 1 extra person hitting the mob. A pet-spamming (there's an extra 15 guys meleeing the mob now), EB/Hasting, PBTing theurg counts a whole lot more in my opinion.


Anyway, just like you, all I want is a clear explanation of how things will be sorted.

(I don't know what happened last raid about lottoing for people that left part-way through, or anything else - mainly because I overslept )

 

[Glottis_Xanadu]

I brought my armsman, instead of my scout, just to be less of a burden on the clerics I did make it obvious to my guild, and mentioned it once in /cg before the raid started I was on the raid for scout items.
Still have to lotto with a guild mate for a stealth gem
Regards, Glottis

 

[Apathy]

I dislike distribution by guild or by whoever has the greatest numbers. It's simply not fair when there are hardly any drops as it is. Every player makes a contribution and so every player should get a chance of a drop in a lotto. And larger guilds will have a higher representation in those lottos and so stand a greater chance of getting a drop anyway, so they can't complain. It's a system that makes the most of drops.

Yesterday, GoL declared around half the drops as "junk" and didn't lotto them. ~sigh~ I left the CG soon after so I can't quite comment on that.

a.
*

 

[**Aligro**]

Well said Apathy.

O.k heres how it goes.

to participate in the lottery you have to be present for the WHOLE of the Raid that means.. as soon as everyone is inside no one else can join in 1 hour later and participate in the lottery. you also have to be present at the end of the lottery, which means you can't get someone else to bid for you. The lottery will be individual and class specific (only the classes that can use the items may be in the lotto for that item). Each person may only recieve ONE item from the lottery.

The lottery will take place at fort. gwyntell and after the raid is over (everyone died and released/we walk out) you have a maximum of 30 minutes to get there

The lotto will be a /random 100 highest person wins and it continue like this until the lotto over.

The "L337 I7AMZ" ie class specific where the item is only usable by a certain class will be lottoed first. then the lesser items will be lottoed i.e items like jewelry which have stats like 3 shield 15 dex/con/quick, these will be done also by classes.. for instance an item which adds to slash cannot be entered by clerics/casters/friars..

hope this clears up a few questions and makes everyone feel more comfortable with the system

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by ApathyEndymion
I dislike distribution by guild or by whoever has the greatest numbers. It's simply not fair when there are hardly any drops as it is. Every player makes a contribution and so every player should get a chance of a drop in a lotto. And larger guilds will have a higher representation in those lottos and so stand a greater chance of getting a drop anyway, so they can't complain. It's a system that makes the most of drops.

If a guild has 20 people out of 100 on a raid, then surely they are contributing 20% to the raid and should get a 20% chance at a drop? If a guild has 1 person at the raid, then they are contributing 1% so should get a 1% chance at a drop?

By distributing it per guild, then guilds form the best groups they can, drops are distributed by guild and ultimately make their way to people who can use the drop and were on the raid (unless, of course, you guild has some really retarded method of internal loot distribution - which it might for all I know).

Originally posted by ApathyEndymion
Yesterday, GoL declared around half the drops as "junk" and didn't lotto them. ~sigh~ I left the CG soon after so I can't quite comment on that.

a.
*

Okay, that is particularly shit.


I'm guessing that the other items were just 'ROG crap' that would end up as salvage, but imo these should still be lotto'd (some of the 'ROG crap' tends to salvage for 200g)


Anyway, we're still in agreement that we would like to know ahead of time to plan accordingly. Hell, if it's done by character that's present who can use the drop I'll bring 3 characters along to the raid, and keep logging them all on as we progress through the rooms

 

[Jiggs]

well........

what about people who play clerics because you actually NEED that class specifically to kill one boss....

 

[Pin]

Okay Aligro. Thanks for putting out rules. Holes I would pick at them are as follows:

Originally posted by **Aligro**
to participate in the lottery you have to be present for the WHOLE of the Raid that means.. as soon as everyone is inside no one else can join in 1 hour later and participate in the lottery. you also have to be present at the end of the lottery, which means you can't get someone else to bid for you.

And if you go LD 4 hours into the raid, or die in an un-rezzable place, etc ?

A complete raid might take 7 hours, are you completely excluded if you can only stay for 5 hours?

Originally posted by **Aligro**
for instance an item which adds to slash cannot be entered by clerics/casters/friars..

And what about items for classes which could use it, but are not specced to use them?

e.g. a thrust-specced inf bidding on slash items, or a small shield, or a staff?

 

[Apathy]

The important thing is that the best method is being used, as cleared up by Aligro.

If a guild has 20 people out of 100 on a raid, then surely they are contributing 20% to the raid and should get a 20% chance at a drop? If a guild has 1 person at the raid, then they are contributing 1% so should get a 1% chance at a drop?

If there are 100 people on the raid and a cleric item drops, all clerics will get a chance at it. Regardless of whether or not one of the clerics' guild also brought along nineteen mercs. But the chances are that the guild brought more than one cleric. Their chance of a drop has doubled, guild-wise. This is better than simply guaranteeing a guild a percentage of the drops in advance and then either letting them choose which ones they want or whatever.

All I have ever seen of guild-based distribution is that it is disruptive and divisive, making people feel "left out" and their efforts unacknowledged. Especially on this, a raid where anyone is invited to join simply because we need the numbers.

When a few guilds can successfully organise a CS raid using ONLY people in the guilds involved and ONLY in guild groups, then they can do as they please. But for as long as anyone is free to join in, then a guild-based distribution system is both unfair and cruel.

a.
*

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by Jiggs
well........

what about people who play clerics because you actually NEED that class specifically to kill one boss....

exactly my point (and even more ilustrative than my particular example).

 

[Gethin]

Ill be there on Saturday Aligro and maybe ill be 50 by then )

Gethin
49 Scout
Ferus Legionis

 

[Apathy]

Originally posted by Pin


exactly my point (and even more ilustrative than my particular example).

It's a bad example and would only be valid if there were NO slash/thrust/whatever people on the raid.

Contribution cannot be measured so simply. A lot of people will NOT get a drop. For a cleric (Or anyone else.) to expect a drop, regardless of whether or not they can actually use it or if there is someone present who can use it, is just silly. I would hope most clerics wouldn't act like that. So far, it seems so.

Contrary and in addition to the above, one measure of "contribution" is simply time spent on the raid. As it is, the measure for raid time is either "Was there for all of it" or "Was not there for all of it". It's a little cruel and it's basic but it will work. If you are so afraid of missing out on a chance in a lotto, then don't go. We know the water is bugged. We know people can go LD and die. Don't take the risk if you don't think it's worth it.

a.
*

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by ApathyEndymion


It's a bad example and would only be valid if there were NO slash/thrust/whatever people on the raid.

How is it a bad example? Last raid there was a clear statement at the top of the invitation

"i call all clerics to this head and also thergs.."


I'm sure that many people would find themselves in the same position of having multiple characters and are specifically being asked to bring one of them, but told they have no chance of getting a drop for their other, whereas if they brought more-active character the raid would be weakened, but they would have a chance (albeit still a slim one) of getting a drop they would like.




Ultimately it doesn't matter. All methods will be argued as unfair to some people. As long as we know how it's going to be handled in advance, we plan accordingly (and then pray we have enough clerics and theugists present ).


Anyways, I'll be there with multiple characters no matter what.

 

[old.Zoyster]

I think Albion's love for me should be materialised in the form of a gift, mebe a UBA DROP with lets say UBA AF and UBA RESISTS.

or Mebe Apathy, u can get 1 made for me !

Anyways, howeva u look at it, most of the techniques for sharing loot work for me coz at the end of the day I have neva won a UBA drop and desperately need to work a way I can Steal one.

disclaimer: anything on this post is a joke, I do not want any come backs

 

[Genesis_of_Ak]

Joke

> > Three Texas surgeons were playing golf together and discussing
surgeries
> > they had performed. One of them said, "I'm the best surgeon in Texas. A
> > concert pianist lost 7 fingers in an accident, I reattached them, and 8
> > months later he performed a private concert for the Queen of England."
One
> > of the others said. "That's nothing. A young man lost both arms and
legs
> > in an accident, I reattached them, and 2 years later he won a gold
medal
> > in field events in the Olympics." The third surgeon said, "You guys are
> > amateurs. Several years ago a guy who was high on cocaine and alcohol
rode
> > a horse head-on into a train travelling 80 miles an hour. All I had
left
> > to work with was the horse's arse and a cowboy hat. Now he's president
of
> > the United States."

 

[Apathy]

Of course it's a bad example. Implying that there is something wrong when a cleric can't lotto for a drop they can't use as well as someone who can spec for it...the drop would already be made weapon-class anyway. And it's not like there would be NOONE else able to use it so it would just get up salvaged or something. It's not against clerics, it's pro specced fighters.

Poor Zoyster...have a flower.

a.
*

 

[old.Wildfire]

I'll be there, want one of those staves

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by ApathyEndymion
Of course it's a bad example. Implying that there is something wrong when a cleric can't lotto for a drop they can't use as well as someone who can spec for it...the drop would already be made weapon-class anyway. And it's not like there would be NOONE else able to use it so it would just get up salvaged or something. It's not against clerics, it's pro specced fighters.

Huh?

The quote you responded to was my reply to Jiggs saying that clerics are NEEDED (and hence people are asked to bring their possibly inactive cleric over another active character purely to give the raid more chance of succeeding), I wasn't saying anything along the lines of clerics shouldn't get a hammer because they can't spec it.


My other statement was with regards to a character that could theoretically use an item, but never would.

e.g. a slash-specced tank rolling for a crush weapon, purely so that his crush-specced friend has an extra chance in the lottery, etc.

Saying that items can only be rolled for by classes which can use them isn't ideal.