C#

[fatbusinessman]

Here's a subject that's attracted my attention recently, through a combination of being brought up in another thread and one of my friends studying it next term.

Basically, what does C# try to do, and how well does it succeed in that aim? I've heard that it's intended to provide more abstraction away from the mungy details of the hardware, and as such was referred to by Microsoft employees as "I Can't Believe It's Not Java". Has anyone had much experience with C#?

If it looks interesting enough, I might dig out my copy of Visual Studio .NET (courtesy of my department having a deal with Microsoft) and take a look at it.

 

[Shovel]

Since I'm the friend in question, I should probably pay attention here.

All I know so far, is that Microsoft plugged it as the "super language" of the future, and everyone shugged their shoulders. .NET has apparently increased its profile and appeal. I've not physically touched it yet though. Fairly impressed with the performance of .NET applications on my system though, so it's already got a > Java vote from me.

It's also used for web applications quite a lot. Again, not sure why, but I shan't complain

 

[robpow]

Basically, what does C# try to do, and how well does it succeed in that aim?

C# is what C++ should have been from the beginning. It gives you all the power and flexibility of C/C++ but with enough checking and rules so you don't go do silly things that will blow up your program. The runtime error handling is very powerful and the web services concept and .NET remoting makes it easy to write distributed multi-tiered apps. Much of this is true for all .NET languages so it's will be down to personal preference which one you go for but it's true MS are pushing C# a lot!

 

[breal]

AFAIK all the .net languages compile into the same code, when is then run on a JIT basis, so the first time a piece of code is executed it is slightly slower than C++, however if it is re-run the difference between C#, vb.net or whatever and C++ is minute. C# is certainly easy to use, more so than Java, and the performance is a lot better. Ive written a couple of Web Service based apps, which allow you to quickly create secure distributed systems. Definately gets the thumbs up from me.

 

[fatbusinessman]

C# is certainly easy to use, more so than Java

Could you elaborate on this? I'm intrigued now...

 

[CertifiedBomb]

yeah same here, i have always avoided all of .NET like the plague so i might be willing to give it a try on my latest project since my house mate has a version lying around somewhere.

 

[p_m_hughes]

yeah same here, i have always avoided all of .NET like the plague so i might be willing to give it a try on my latest project since my house mate has a version lying around somewhere.

The thing is there is also a project called Mono which is trying hard to implement .Net on a Linux Platform (Open Source as well).

If it succeeds it would be nice especially if it managed to outperform the Microsoft implementation.

 

[xane]

I was under the impression that due to Sun's tirade on Microsoft over the Java language, Microsoft responded by coming up with C#, basically a Java clone, with knobs on.

 

[Shovel]

Could you elaborate on this? I'm intrigued now...

Maybe it works first time on more than one computer?

/me spits on Java

 

[Jazz]

.net

If you're programming for Windows only, the .NET framework is a lovely thing. Also, the VS.NET IDE is by far the nicest development environment I've seen - though it needs some hefty kit to run it well.

Of the languages in VS.NET, VB is less picky than C# in a few places, but C# is marginally more powerful. Which of the two you use is down to personal preference in the most part - don't be fooled by VB's legacy: VB.NET is very little different from C#.

I've not done much Java at all, but syntactically C# is pretty similar from what I can tell. There's also the option of Visual J# (basically Java.NET, free to download if you have Visual Studio), but I've not used that at all, so I can't really judge.

 

[nick]

is then run on a JIT basis, so the first time a piece of code is executed it is slightly slower than C++, however if it is re-run the difference between C#, vb.net or whatever and C++ is minute.

This is only the case for web applications. Which does indeed give a huge speed advantage over the old method they used for asp.

 

[phlash]

Here's my take on the C#/Java and .NET/J2EE things... (NB: I may express opinions!)

. C# was created to avoid the Java name, but retaining as much as possible, because..

. C# is Microsoft's attempt to take some of the Java market share away from Sun.

. the .NET CLR is Microsoft's equivalent of the JVM, but it has different goals eg:
- .NET targets developers by supporting multiple (ie: your favorite) languages, this
should mean more developers on board quickly and thus more apps to market.
- JVM targets platform performance (eg: server, HotSpot variants), which should
mean better long term performance of applications, on more platforms.

. J2EE is Sun's application architecture, backed by a community development process,
(including quite a lot of argument!) and extensive guidance and 3rd party support to
provide a standard's based, widely accepted application development platform.

. NET framework (including VB.NET, ASP.NET) is Microsoft's attempt to create an
application framework to compete with J2EE, as such it includes similar concepts and
architectures as J2EE, however it is currently less proven and supported mostly by
Microsoft themselves. There is no community involvement in the development process
so far either (although this may change I think it unlikely). I also think that the .NET
framework is less complete than J2EE as well (however this is mostly a result of age).

Having worked extensively with J2EE/J2SE/J2ME/Java, and mostly just played with C#/.NET/ASP.NET I'm not able to offer detailed comparisions (wow that was honest of me!), however I would suggest it's always worth having a go at these things if you have the time. I found my web application development in C#/ASP.NET to be slow to get into (mostly the lack of decent examples and learning new class libraries as ever), but I was comfortable with the structure of the application and it was free to develop using the ASP.NET Web Matrix download.

I started working with Java after many years of C/C++ hacking and it was a joy in many respects (particularly the built-in synchronisation and thread primitives, and the complete, well-considered class libraries - bye bye MFC hideousness), however I missed the ability to 'hit the metal' and implement algorithms as efficiently as I used to (ok so I missed all my favorite pointer tricks!).

There is always the problem that customers want the latest and greatest tricks (eg: fancy graphics and service interaction on mobile phones), but the standards based approach taken by Java systems precludes such things by design (in contrast to say C++ on Symbian which let's you do pretty much anything to the mobile device!). I expect the .NET framework to fare better in this respect since it has a direct means to connect into existing DLL's and the COM system on Win32 and thus use device-specific tricks (I know about JNDI, however it's much easier in .NET and C#!).

That's enough wibbling methings...

Phil.

 

[breal]

Could you elaborate on this? I'm intrigued now...

Certainly,

The .net IDE is extremely polished- most common tasks can be done very quickly, whereas (personally) I never really found a Java IDE I was happy with, and its a real pain using Layout Managers to try and get things looking as they should.

C# is IMO Java with improvements to ease and speed of use. Overall I am happy with the whole .net package, and when you add things like Web Services and the ease with which you can mix any of the languages together (in terms of distributed applications), its a lot easier to use than Java.

Technically I don't see many great differences, as the two lanaguages are extremely similar.

 

[soulthief]

C# is gaining in momentum as it tempts more and more developers away from Java/C++ and even VB (shock horror). I am seeing more and more demand for C# developers these days. The thing about C# is that developers who hate VB/Microsoft but like Java can feel at home with it, and get the benefits of the .NET platform without using a 'baby' language.

But make no mistake, it compiles down to the same binary as VB, so really there is very little reason to use it or any other language that is .NET compatible apart from personal/house choice, although there are a few minor advantages over VB.

It's really down to whether you want to develop with the .NET platform; then its whether you like C-like syntax or VB-like syntax. Sounds simplistic, but it really is that basic.

Good luck!

 

[Gurnox]

I never really found a Java IDE I was happy with, and its a real pain using Layout Managers to try and get things looking as they should.

Kawa used to be really nice but, for some unknown reason, they stopped shipping it. If you have access to an OS X system, check out mi. It's lovely. If you like things nice and simple, give Jedit a whirl.

Layout managers aren't so bad. You can always bypass them and specify where you want things directly. Although this causes a few extra headaches if you want your users to be able to resize windows e.t.c.

 

[Jazz]

...this causes a few extra headaches if you want your users to be able to resize windows e.t.c.

The .NET controls have properties built in to deal with this. The "Anchor" and "Dock" properties of standard controls allow contrls to resize to a window without extra code.

For example: Set a control's Anchor property to "Bottom, Right" and the control will stay a constant distance from the bottom-right corner of the form as the form resizes. Set the Anchor to "Top, Bottom, Left, Right" and the control will resize in both directions as the form resizes.

Using these properties carefully and combining them with container-controls (the Panel or GroupBox controls, and the Splitter) can give you some very easy and impressive results with resizable forms, without having to hand-write any code at all.

 

[Gurnox]

The .NET controls have properties built in to deal with this. The "Anchor" and "Dock" properties of standard controls allow contrls to resize to a window without extra code.

For example: Set a control's Anchor property to "Bottom, Right" and the control will stay a constant distance from the bottom-right corner of the form as the form resizes. Set the Anchor to "Top, Bottom, Left, Right" and the control will resize in both directions as the form resizes.

Using these properties carefully and combining them with container-controls (the Panel or GroupBox controls, and the Splitter) can give you some very easy and impressive results with resizable forms, without having to hand-write any code at all.

Yep, that sounds pretty easy.

I think the thing that stops me wanting to look at it is the same kind of thing you had with Java. I abolutely hated the Visual Studio IDE when I last looked at it. Although, this was a good few years ago.

VB and the abomination that was J++ put me off of MS languages quite a bit too.

Still, lots of people seem to rate .NET so maybe I should give 'em another chance.

 

[Jazz]

I abolutely hated the Visual Studio IDE when I last looked at it.

Seriously: try the IDE. The .NET IDE is heaven on earth - it has all the speed of the old VB IDEs for interface design, and the code editor is beautiful.

For those that haven't seen it: imagine the MSWord "squiggly red underlines" applied to syntax errors instead of spelling mistakes. It is wonderful. Autocompletion is well-implemented and doesn't get in the way of easy coding, and in C# you can write XML comments that can be automatically compiled into useful code documentation - and if anyone's ever *really* tried to document a project, you'll know how useful that is.

I've not tried it, but MS have a "try a free half hour session on our website" or something similar; I assume it runs some kind of virtual IDE for you. Might be worth a try!

 

[Teren]

im a senior (2 years ) pascal programmer.... i moved to C# 3 days ago.... i wrote this app... it allows you to chat with your pc it's very simple... and im a total C/C++/C# newb

http://vladik.infonet.ee/Test.rar
unrar both files to the same dir.... and you must have .net framework


and here's a funny log of my chat with the pc:

<Vlad> lo mate
<Olga> Hail, Vlad! You seem to be a nice guy!
<Vlad> do you like pie?
<Olga> Sure!
<Vlad> ok
<Olga> OK
<Vlad> hehe
<Olga> Good to meet you, Vlad! You seem to be a nice guy!
<Vlad> lol?
<Olga> Good to meet you, Vlad! You seem to be a nice guy!
<Vlad> wtf?
<Olga> foad
<Vlad> ok m8
<Olga> What's your name?
<Vlad> vlad
<Olga> OK
<Vlad> what ok?
<Olga> What's your name?
<Vlad> vlad lol
<Olga> afk atm
<Vlad> grrr
<Olga> lalala
<Vlad> wtf?
<Olga> foad


i continued talking... but i then entered: "math 2334534534535 v", which made an overload and killed the app

 

[Teren]

talked again

<Vlad> lo m8
<Olga> Hello Vlad! You seem to be a nice guy!
<Vlad> thanks
<Olga> lalala
<Vlad> yeah, i like to sing too
<Olga> nice...
<Vlad> do you like rock music?
<Olga> Hehe, yeah!
<Vlad> cool
<Olga> lalala
<Vlad> i see you really like to sing
<Olga> I like pie!
<Vlad> me too!
<Olga> nice...
<Vlad> do you like strawberry pie?
<Olga> Maybe, just maybe.
<Vlad> do you like apple pie?
<Olga> Never did like it!
<Vlad> do you like cherry pie?
<Olga> ...
<Vlad> do you like pizza pie?
<Olga> yus fyi
<Vlad> great
<Olga> nice...
<Vlad> i seee you are really nice
<Olga> lalala
<Vlad> rofl.. you are addicted to music
<Olga> OK
<Vlad> ok
<Olga> I like pie!
<Vlad> great... im talking to pie and music addict...
<Olga> nice...
<Vlad> hehe
<Olga> Privet, Vlad! You seem to be a nice guy!
<Vlad> rofl?
<Olga> Nice weather today!
<Vlad> yea, its snowing here
<Olga> OK
<Vlad> ok, bye m8
<Olga> OK

 

[Teren]

and another log, of using math features, random, and version command

<Vlad> hi
<Olga> Hello Vlad! You seem to be a nice guy!
<Vlad> you will be my math teacher today
<Olga> Nice weather today!
<Vlad> ok?
<Olga> foad
<Vlad> pls
<Olga> stfu
<Vlad> dont be rude, please help me
<Olga> ...
<Vlad> alright?
<Olga> I like pie!
<Vlad> you are stupid tbh
<Olga> I like pie!
<Vlad> duh
<Olga> OK
<Vlad> goodbye
<Olga> foad
<Vlad> hi
<Jenn> Good to meet you, Vlad! You seem to be a nice guy!
<Vlad> will you help me do my math?
<Jenn> I like pie!
<Vlad> not again....
<Jenn> stfu
<Vlad> grrr
<Jenn> What's your name?
<Vlad> hi matey
<Mary> lo, Vlad! You seem to be a nice guy!
<Vlad> will you help me do my math?
<Mary> OK
<Vlad> math 454 s
<Mary> 454 squared is 206116!
<Vlad> math 545 / 22.7
<Mary> 545 divided by 22.7 is 24.00881!
<Vlad> math 22 / 7
<Mary> 22 divided by 7 is 3.142857!
<Vlad> math 3.14 v
<Mary> The square root of 3.14 is 1.77200454426736!
<Vlad> random 10
<Mary> Your random number from 1 to 10 is: 6
<Vlad> random 10
<Mary> Your random number from 1 to 10 is: 7
<Vlad> math 6 s
<Mary> 6 squared is 36!
<Vlad> math 7 s
<Mary> 7 squared is 49!
<Vlad> math 36 / 49
<Mary> 36 divided by 49 is 0.7346939!
<Vlad> math 0.73 * 1343
<Mary> 0.73 multiplied by 1343 is 980.39!
<Vlad> ok thanks :0
<Mary> afk atm
<Vlad> was that a bot?
<Mary> nice...
<Vlad> version
<Mary> At the moment you are using AI Chat version 0.1,this is an alpha version. Made in January of year 2004 by Vlad Barinov (vladik@*******.ee) You are welcomed to send any comments or advices.

 

[Gurnox]

and another log, of using math features, random, and version command

[Snip!]

<Mary> At the moment you are using AI Chat version 0.1,this is an alpha version. Made in January of year 2004 by Vlad Barinov (vladik@*******.ee) You are welcomed to send any comments or advices.

ELIZA lives!!!

 

[Teren]

what's eliza?

 

[Teren]

and here's a log from my updated version


<Vlad> hi
<Test> lo, Vlad! You seem to be a nice guy!
<Vlad> thanks
<Test> yourself..
<Vlad> are you a nice guy?
<Test> Hehe, yeah!
<Vlad> nice\
<Test> stfu
<Vlad> gr
<Test> wtf? ^^
<Vlad> grrrr
<Test> lalala
<Vlad> yea i like to sing too
<Test> LOL?
<Vlad> no\
<Test> lalala
<Vlad> me too
<Test> stfu
<Vlad> grrr
<Test> I like pie!
<Vlad> me to!
<Test> foad
<Vlad> grrr
<Test> a/s/l? ^^
<Vlad> 14 m est
<Test> yourself..
<Vlad> i know thats me
<Test> Come again?
<Vlad> thats my asl
<Test> hmm...
<Vlad> whats yours?
<Test> Nice weather today!
<Vlad> yea its snowing here
<Test> hmm...
<Vlad>
<Test> thanks
<Vlad> brb
<Test> Come again?
<Vlad> be right back
<Test> OK
<Vlad> back
<Test> thanks
<Vlad> did you miss me?
<Test> nice...
<Vlad> aww :>
<Test> What?
<Vlad> aww :>
<Test> pff...
<Vlad> nerf "_"
<Test> a/s/l? ^^
<Vlad> 14 m est
<Test> a/s/l? ^^
<Vlad> 14 m est
<Test> pff...
<Vlad> 14 m est
<Test> omg
<Vlad> haha
<Test> Privet, Vlad! You seem to be a nice guy!
<Vlad> do u speak russian?
<Test> Hehe, yeah!
<Vlad> privet tada
<Test> Good to meet you, Vlad! You seem to be a nice guy!
<Vlad> kak dela?
<Test> What?
<Vlad> do you speak russian?
<Test> Yes, of course!
<Vlad> pravda?
<Test> Hail, Vlad! You seem to be a nice guy!
<Vlad> ne ponjal....
<Test> Come again?
<Vlad> dp you speak russian?
<Test> k
<Vlad> do you speak russian?
<Test> what?
<Vlad> do you speak russian?
<Test> NO! NEVER!
<Vlad> do you speak russian? sux
<Test> Dunno
<Vlad> grrr, you are confusing me
<Test> foad
<Vlad> :<
<Test> hehe
<Vlad> notfunny tbh
<Test> omg
<Vlad> yeah
<Test> lalala
<Vlad> stop singing
<Test> foad
<Vlad> grrr
<Test> omg
<Vlad> what?
<Test> Nice weather today!
<Vlad> yeah its nice tbh
<Test> k
<Vlad> are you french?
<Test> ...
<Vlad> are you a goa employee?
<Test> Hehe, yeah!
<Vlad> are you running our english servers on z...
<Test> sux tbh
<Vlad> are you running our english servers on z...
<Test> I don't know!
<Vlad> why?
<Test> wtf? ^^
<Vlad> are you running excal on zx11?
<Test> Maybe, just maybe.
<Vlad> why odnt tell the truth?
<Test> duh?
<Vlad> ARE YOU RUNNIMG OUR SERVERS ON ZX11's???...
<Test> yah
<Vlad> stfu noob
<Test> thx
<Vlad> are you stupid or something?
<Test> what?
<Vlad> are you stupid|?
<Test> Hehe, yeah!
<Vlad> nerf :>
<Test> wtf? ^^
<Vlad> stfu
<Test> w8 a sec
<Vlad> ok
<Test> a/s/l? ^^
<Vlad> u asked that already
<Test> Come again?
<Vlad> u asked that before
<Test> afk atm
<Vlad> ok
<Test> I like pie!
<Vlad> me too
<Test> hmm...
<Vlad> do yuo like apple pie?
<Test> yus fyi
<Vlad> im eating one atm :>
<Test> wtf? ^^
<Vlad> im eating an apple pie atm
<Test> What?
<Vlad> duh..
<Test> k
<Vlad> learn to read imho
<Test> afk atm
<Vlad> u suck
<Test> afk atm
<Vlad> bot?
<Test> Come again?
<Vlad> why are you acting so stupid?
<Test> w8 a sec
<Vlad> ohh.. you need to check a dictionary bef...
<Test> hmm...
<Vlad> grrr nerf, i have to fix this program
<Test> hehe
<Vlad> it dowsnt want to show more than 40 char...
<Test> hehe
<Vlad> it doesnt want to show more than 40
<Test> Nice weather today!
<Vlad> characters of text in one SEND
<Test> OK
<Vlad> it will be more fun that way :>
<Test> w8 a sec
<Vlad> k
<Test> a/s/l? ^^
<Vlad> u asked before
<Test> Come again?
<Vlad> 14 m est ffs
<Test> stfu
<Vlad> urself
<Test> afk atm
<Vlad> grrr
<Test> pff...
<Vlad> m00
<Test> omg
<Vlad> 1337 :>
<Test> k
<Vlad> do you like to talk with me? :>
<Test> LOL, no!
<Vlad> why?
<Test> foad
<Vlad> dont be rude
<Test> Yes, of course!
<Vlad> lets be friends
<Test> thx
<Vlad> are you happy? :> coz im happy atm
<Test> I don't know!
<Vlad> yeah
<Test> yourself..
<Vlad> i forgot that u are a preprogrammed ai.....
<Test> omg
<Vlad> u didnt know????
<Test> duh?
<Vlad> oh... yeah... i forgot to tell ya :>
<Test> k
<Vlad> version
<Test> At the moment you are using AI Chat version 1.0,this is a beta version. Made in January of year 2004 by Vlad Barinov (vladik@******.ee) You are welcomed to send any comments or advices.
<Vlad> lol
<Test> Good to meet you, Vlad! You seem to be a nice guy!
<Vlad> w8 a sec im afk
<Test> thx
<Vlad> nm
<Test> duh?
<Vlad> no mtter... i will goafk later
<Test> Dude?
<Vlad> lets do some math
<Test> I like pie!
<Vlad> math 4 + 4
<Test> 4 and 4 is 8!
<Vlad> :>
<Test> yourself..
<Vlad> math 343434 v
<Test> The square root of 343434 is 586.032422311258!
<Vlad> math 497 s
<Test> 497 squared is 247009!
<Vlad> math 2323 / 33
<Test> 2323 divided by 33 is 70.39394!
<Vlad> math 22 / 7
<Test> 22 divided by 7 is 3.142857!
<Vlad> mmm.... pie
<Test> w8 a sec
<Vlad> getting one? :>
<Test> Come again?
<Vlad> nm
<Test> afk atm
<Vlad> random 5555
<Test> Your random number from 1 to 5555 is: 692
<Vlad> random 5555
<Test> Your random number from 1 to 5555 is: 3078
<Vlad> random 5555
<Test> Your random number from 1 to 5555 is: 2442
<Vlad> random 5555
<Test> Your random number from 1 to 5555 is: 3932
<Vlad> random 5555
<Test> Your random number from 1 to 5555 is: 601
<Vlad> random 5555
<Test> Your random number from 1 to 5555 is: 3909
<Vlad> random 100
<Test> Your random number from 1 to 100 is: 64
<Vlad> random 100
<Test> Your random number from 1 to 100 is: 87
<Vlad> random 100
<Test> Your random number from 1 to 100 is: 73
<Vlad> random 100
<Test> Your random number from 1 to 100 is: 55
<Vlad> random 100
<Test> Your random number from 1 to 100 is: 7
<Vlad> random 100
<Test> Your random number from 1 to 100 is: 34
<Vlad> random 100
<Test> Your random number from 1 to 100 is: 39
<Vlad> random 100
<Test> Your random number from 1 to 100 is: 68
<Vlad> random 100
<Test> Your random number from 1 to 100 is: 50
<Vlad> random 100
<Test> Your random number from 1 to 100 is: 58
<Vlad> random 100
<Test> Your random number from 1 to 100 is: 52
<Vlad> giff 100 ;ppp
<Test> Come again?
<Vlad> i want to win the sidi itam....
<Test> stfu
<Vlad> oh.. so you wanna keep it for urself?
<Test> afk atm
<Vlad> bye.. u annot me
<Test> thx
<Vlad> nerf me
<Test> Dude?
<Vlad> cu, you annoy me
<Test> good bye Vlad!

 

[Gurnox]

what's eliza?

It was an early attmept at the Turing test (I think it was during the sixties though I may be incorrect on this). A program that worked in a similar way to yours and appeared to have a conversation with the user.

There is a story, which may fall into the 'urban myth' category, that somebody placed it onto their bosses terminal. He thought it was a real, and very nice and sympathetic, person.

You can get more information on both ELIZA and the Turing test at: http://www.compapp.dcu.ie/~humphrys/turing.test.html

 

[old.user4556]

man, i'm so glad you've found a friend

I had Eliza on the Apple Mac about 10 years ago, it was fun because I liked to say "Eliza, i want to peen you in the face"

and Eliza would say "explain to me why you want to peen you in the face?"

and i would say "because i'm sick"

and Eliza would say "Gareth, i'm glad because i'm sick"

etc.

Utter crap, but somewhat fun.

G

 

[fatbusinessman]

G: I thought Eliza was capable of replacing "I" with "you" and vice versa, so it would say "explain to me why you want to peen me in the face"? Or is this only some versions?

 

[old.user4556]

lol don't quote me on it , i was exaggerating

 

[Gurnox]

man, i'm so glad you've found a friend

I had Eliza on the Apple Mac about 10 years ago, it was fun because I liked to say "Eliza, i want to peen you in the face"

and Eliza would say "explain to me why you want to peen you in the face?"

and i would say "because i'm sick"

and Eliza would say "Gareth, i'm glad because i'm sick"

etc.

Utter crap, but somewhat fun.

G

When all else fails, at least Eliza is there for you....

You can find a version of it at: http://www.manifestation.com/neurotoys/eliza.php3

I saw an excellent progression of Eliza a while back but cannot, for the life of me, remember where it was. It was linked on B3ta if that rings any bells with anyone.