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old.Requ!em
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- #31
Email sent Athena =)
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old.Swelt
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- #32
2 things...
First - following from Herp's point, how about allowing teams a timeout or 2. Admins then only pause game upon a player disconnection, but clans will be allowed 2 short pauses. I wouldn't want them to be the default lenght (30 secs iirc) but shorter - enough time for a player to swap. Just an idea - not necessarily a good one.
Second - the lag issue everyone's talking about. Lemme see I can explain my theory in words others will understand.
If I understand Requiem correctly, one clients net settings have no direct way of impacting another... I think it's all just a perception thing.
My personal opinion is that it doesn't exist.
What I mean by that is that when a CMer fights with an ISDNer it does not lag them. But that doesn't mean you don't FEEL like you are lagging.
Q3 includes extensive client prediction - this makes the game nice and smooth. If a player runs around a map on their own, it's hard to tell the difference between 30, 70 or 100+ ping because the client is able to predict 100% of what is going on.
Then you get shot. Suddenly your client is not able to predict 100% what is going on, because it doesn't know the other client (the guy shooting you) is doing. Fine, if your being shot with a railgun as once hit, your client can go nicely back to predicting your motion through the world. But when the guy starts shooting rapid fire weaps (plasma/lg/mg) that's a whole lot of interuptions to your client's prediction code.
So... that's me theory. Basically I reckon that being shot causes erratic client prediction and shows up your latency which is hidden when not in combat. The lower your latency and better your net connection, the less you will be impacted by this phenomenon.
btw I was ISDN and am now CM (and have played on modem) and what I write is based on this experience.
Feel free to ignore this, call it bullshit or wotever
First - following from Herp's point, how about allowing teams a timeout or 2. Admins then only pause game upon a player disconnection, but clans will be allowed 2 short pauses. I wouldn't want them to be the default lenght (30 secs iirc) but shorter - enough time for a player to swap. Just an idea - not necessarily a good one.
Second - the lag issue everyone's talking about. Lemme see I can explain my theory in words others will understand.
If I understand Requiem correctly, one clients net settings have no direct way of impacting another... I think it's all just a perception thing.
My personal opinion is that it doesn't exist.
What I mean by that is that when a CMer fights with an ISDNer it does not lag them. But that doesn't mean you don't FEEL like you are lagging.
Q3 includes extensive client prediction - this makes the game nice and smooth. If a player runs around a map on their own, it's hard to tell the difference between 30, 70 or 100+ ping because the client is able to predict 100% of what is going on.
Then you get shot. Suddenly your client is not able to predict 100% what is going on, because it doesn't know the other client (the guy shooting you) is doing. Fine, if your being shot with a railgun as once hit, your client can go nicely back to predicting your motion through the world. But when the guy starts shooting rapid fire weaps (plasma/lg/mg) that's a whole lot of interuptions to your client's prediction code.
So... that's me theory. Basically I reckon that being shot causes erratic client prediction and shows up your latency which is hidden when not in combat. The lower your latency and better your net connection, the less you will be impacted by this phenomenon.
btw I was ISDN and am now CM (and have played on modem) and what I write is based on this experience.
Feel free to ignore this, call it bullshit or wotever
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old.W4rh0g
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- #33
How would this account for the pings going higher? I can understand the client to server comms would be higher, would this cause it?
W4rh0g
W4rh0g
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old.Deluge
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- #34
MEXX1
Please Please Please Please
NO MEXX1
3 defeats by 1 frag is enough I hate that damn map
Please Please Please Please
NO MEXX1
3 defeats by 1 frag is enough I hate that damn map
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bigfoot
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- #35
I like our pause rules, sometimes we might over-run by 5mins but its better than like a 2min pause when a reboot and reconnect usually takes longer.
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inqy
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- #36
as you all seem to hate mexx1, I thought I'd prove what Bif is saying. I love mexx1, please do not drop it.
Too many 1xRA, 1xYA maps out there already imo. Mexx is different as there is more armour available if you DON'T have the RA/RL. (130 I believe) This is why I think most of the boring RA camping clans don't like it.
Flame on.
Too many 1xRA, 1xYA maps out there already imo. Mexx is different as there is more armour available if you DON'T have the RA/RL. (130 I believe) This is why I think most of the boring RA camping clans don't like it.
Flame on.
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Sar
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- #37
Lo peeps
1) Connection Rules
No-one is allowed to play with a ping lower than mine
Seriously though, I think the BW conn rules are fine as is (but then again I'm a cheaty low ping cabler anyhow )
And could someone explain the reasons behind limiting Timenudge? (OK, so I'm being thick )
2) Map Pool
Lol
Don't get me started on maps
3) Points System
Well the WPDML has 2 points per map, which works better I feel personally. But the current BW/footy points system is fine by me again
4) Defaulting Rules
Kill all their firstborn for 3 generations.
*cough*
If they default 3 weeks (or the first 2 weeks) kick em from the league.
Give opposition clans 200 frags and the points for each week they get a default.
Also deduct a further 150 frags (on top of the -200 from their default as per normal) from the defaulters frag total for each week that they default.
Mwuahahahaha
5) Spreading games across 3 nights (to include Thursdays)
Very good idea. Since the league that shall not be named decided to splay themselves all over everybody elses hard work, we're gonna be murdered with clashes. Although tonight was fairly comical in the WPDML to begin with, as it was thought that their cup games were off because they had no servers. DOH
Shouldn't really laugh, cos I know how they feel what with CW and GI etc...
6) Self-Adminning
I have always been strongly against this for various reasons. None of which I'll go into here for fear of starting a bloody flame war
[Edited by Sar on 07-03-01 at 00:49]
1) Connection Rules
No-one is allowed to play with a ping lower than mine
Seriously though, I think the BW conn rules are fine as is (but then again I'm a cheaty low ping cabler anyhow
)And could someone explain the reasons behind limiting Timenudge? (OK, so I'm being thick
)2) Map Pool
Lol
Don't get me started on maps
3) Points System
Well the WPDML has 2 points per map, which works better I feel personally. But the current BW/footy points system is fine by me again
4) Defaulting Rules
Kill all their firstborn for 3 generations.
*cough*
If they default 3 weeks (or the first 2 weeks) kick em from the league.
Give opposition clans 200 frags and the points for each week they get a default.
Also deduct a further 150 frags (on top of the -200 from their default as per normal) from the defaulters frag total for each week that they default.
Mwuahahahaha
5) Spreading games across 3 nights (to include Thursdays)
Very good idea. Since the league that shall not be named decided to splay themselves all over everybody elses hard work, we're gonna be murdered with clashes. Although tonight was fairly comical in the WPDML to begin with, as it was thought that their cup games were off because they had no servers. DOH
Shouldn't really laugh, cos I know how they feel what with CW and GI etc...
6) Self-Adminning
I have always been strongly against this for various reasons. None of which I'll go into here for fear of starting a bloody flame war
[Edited by Sar on 07-03-01 at 00:49]
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old.Elij
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- #38
GET RID OF Q3MEXX1
I think q3mexx1 should be removed from the map pool.
I say this because the map is FAR too open, you have like large caverns for each item. Makes it difficult to attack any area with any kind of stratergy. Takes about 10seonds to go from one part of the map to the other. It has every weapon -- same old hold RA then go quad, fight for RA. Its all been done before, just in the case of Q3Mexx1, its not as playable as the other alteratives.
Custom maps usually fair badly in leagues, lun3dm1, cpm9, take a look at the recent badlands downs on cpm9, or the fairly playable q3ngiarena2.
Cpm9 really sucked in the way that no one was in the same part of the map twice, and the way that everyone was lost. Or the fact that 4 people would be secluded at RA. Spamming up the stairs, while the others are throwing grenades down -- and then they all hear quad, and go looking for it....
Anyway, as I was saying -- I think Q3mexx1 should be replaced with q3dm12tmp. I love the style of dm12tmp, its never been done before. Its like, 2 sides of the map, with EXACTLY the same weaps (no railgun), and a YA each. In the centre you have a MH spawn (for motivation) and 2 powerups. On mh (in ffa) ledge and regen (in ffa) spot. Basicly, one side of the map has pretty easy access to powerups. Plays really well, and it isn't the "camp RA" usual cess pit. There are sooo many good demos of it from the states (unlike any q3mexx1 demos).
So I think BW should use this map poole:
Q3dm6 [TMP]
Q3dm7 [TMP]
Q3dm8 [TMP]
Q3dm12 [TMP]
Q3dm14 [TMP]
Cpm4
I think alot of the division 1 clans will agree with me on this. Q3mexx1 is just not very playable
Also increase SV_FPS to 25/30) for a smoother game..
I also think you should leave the timenudge rule and allow any timenudge, because its simply not that easy to change and there is no proof against it. Dispite what anyone says, q3 is server side, so there's no way timenudge can force client side shooting, because that is just not how it works. ID are smart people, there is no logic in making timenudge anything but client side -- if it wasn't, nme's wouldn't seem to warp from the timenudgers POV.
Cable modemers saturate servers, with 10000byte/s up max (100maxpackets) and 10000 byte/s down max (rate 10000), so in like 4v4 RA attacks they'll be sending and recieving like 10k/s which is where the server has problems and thus serving higher priority connects (lower latency connects) first. I used to play Q2 on a dircon server and that would easily suck for modemers, as it wasn't very fast -- up for modemers really. Once a few isdn'ers came on, and started playing, they would saturate the server. Its just the way TCP/IP works, imagine a ADSL/Cable Nodes, if a few peeps are downloading pr0n. Your ping increases as the node is saturated. Q3 starts to suck with low updates, updates are low enough already :/ 20 a sec. Compared to like 72 (cl_maxfps) a sec with qw/q2. Cable modemers lag ISDNers pretty much whatever their maxpackets is, its just the way TCP/IP works..........
[Edited by Elij on 07-03-01 at 05:33]
I think q3mexx1 should be removed from the map pool.
I say this because the map is FAR too open, you have like large caverns for each item. Makes it difficult to attack any area with any kind of stratergy. Takes about 10seonds to go from one part of the map to the other. It has every weapon -- same old hold RA then go quad, fight for RA. Its all been done before, just in the case of Q3Mexx1, its not as playable as the other alteratives.
Custom maps usually fair badly in leagues, lun3dm1, cpm9, take a look at the recent badlands downs on cpm9, or the fairly playable q3ngiarena2.
Cpm9 really sucked in the way that no one was in the same part of the map twice, and the way that everyone was lost. Or the fact that 4 people would be secluded at RA. Spamming up the stairs, while the others are throwing grenades down -- and then they all hear quad, and go looking for it....
Anyway, as I was saying -- I think Q3mexx1 should be replaced with q3dm12tmp. I love the style of dm12tmp, its never been done before. Its like, 2 sides of the map, with EXACTLY the same weaps (no railgun), and a YA each. In the centre you have a MH spawn (for motivation) and 2 powerups. On mh (in ffa) ledge and regen (in ffa) spot. Basicly, one side of the map has pretty easy access to powerups. Plays really well, and it isn't the "camp RA" usual cess pit. There are sooo many good demos of it from the states (unlike any q3mexx1 demos).
So I think BW should use this map poole:
Q3dm6 [TMP]
Q3dm7 [TMP]
Q3dm8 [TMP]
Q3dm12 [TMP]
Q3dm14 [TMP]
Cpm4
I think alot of the division 1 clans will agree with me on this. Q3mexx1 is just not very playable
Also increase SV_FPS to 25/30
) for a smoother game..I also think you should leave the timenudge rule and allow any timenudge, because its simply not that easy to change and there is no proof against it. Dispite what anyone says, q3 is server side, so there's no way timenudge can force client side shooting, because that is just not how it works. ID are smart people, there is no logic in making timenudge anything but client side -- if it wasn't, nme's wouldn't seem to warp from the timenudgers POV.
Cable modemers saturate servers, with 10000byte/s up max (100maxpackets) and 10000 byte/s down max (rate 10000), so in like 4v4 RA attacks they'll be sending and recieving like 10k/s which is where the server has problems and thus serving higher priority connects (lower latency connects) first. I used to play Q2 on a dircon server and that would easily suck for modemers, as it wasn't very fast -- up for modemers really. Once a few isdn'ers came on, and started playing, they would saturate the server. Its just the way TCP/IP works, imagine a ADSL/Cable Nodes, if a few peeps are downloading pr0n. Your ping increases as the node is saturated. Q3 starts to suck with low updates, updates are low enough already :/ 20 a sec. Compared to like 72 (cl_maxfps) a sec with qw/q2. Cable modemers lag ISDNers pretty much whatever their maxpackets is, its just the way TCP/IP works..........
[Edited by Elij on 07-03-01 at 05:33]
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old.W4rh0g
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- #39
Easy solution then.. BAN THE CHEATIN CABLE MODEMERS !!!!!!
j/k for the peeps with no sense of humour
W4rh0g
j/k for the peeps with no sense of humour
W4rh0g
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cenobite
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- #40
I was on a server last night with rate 10k maxpackets 100 and snaps 40 and i used different crazy timenudges and I warped about like a little bitch.
Timenudge is the root of all evil.
Timenudge is the root of all evil.
S
Sar
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- #41
Mexx1 I think works fairly well as a map.
I think the ex qw-ers are just too used to claustrophobic tight maps
Seriously though, I like Mexx quite a bit, and Q3NGIARENA2 is a fab map, which is why I (rather undemocratically :E) put it into the WPDML map rotation.
Other maps?
The bog standard:
DM6TMP
DM7TMP
DM8TMP
DM14TMP
And either:
DM11
or
DM12TMP
CPM4 is a good TP map also.
I don't particularly like CPM9 myself, but it was asked for by the players in the WPDML. It's up for the first time next week, so we'll be able to see how it plays then.
Anyhoo, GL Dave with Season 5
I think the ex qw-ers are just too used to claustrophobic tight maps
Seriously though, I like Mexx quite a bit, and Q3NGIARENA2 is a fab map, which is why I (rather undemocratically :E) put it into the WPDML map rotation.
Other maps?
The bog standard:
DM6TMP
DM7TMP
DM8TMP
DM14TMP
And either:
DM11
or
DM12TMP
CPM4 is a good TP map also.
I don't particularly like CPM9 myself, but it was asked for by the players in the WPDML. It's up for the first time next week, so we'll be able to see how it plays then.
Anyhoo, GL Dave with Season 5
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old.Elij
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- #42
q3dm11 ROFL
yea thats EVEN worst than q3mexx1, it takes like 15secs to take a powerup to the main areas...I mean "c'mon!!!"
alot of people would opt for dm12tmp over mexx1
yea thats EVEN worst than q3mexx1, it takes like 15secs to take a powerup to the main areas...I mean "c'mon!!!"
alot of people would opt for dm12tmp over mexx1
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old.Gibzzz
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- #43
For all those that claim timenudge makes opponents go all warpy, can u post a demo showing that for us with 0 timenudge and varying, cos every demo I've seen show that ppl don't warp with it ?
I am happy to be corrected tho.
I am happy to be corrected tho.
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old.Swelt
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- #44
Thats cos of the way demos work
In yesterdays WPDML on CPM4 everyone (including myself) appeared to be sunk about 6 inches into the floor (thats 6 inches in proportion...) Quite bizarre. However my demo does not show this.
To record a truely accurate demo, the server needs to have g_syncronous clients set - but this makes the game totally unplayable. gg thx id
In yesterdays WPDML on CPM4 everyone (including myself) appeared to be sunk about 6 inches into the floor (thats 6 inches in proportion...) Quite bizarre. However my demo does not show this.
To record a truely accurate demo, the server needs to have g_syncronous clients set - but this makes the game totally unplayable. gg thx id
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old.Broo
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- #45
Swelt: i had that too :/
Maps:
include new ones, maybe take a look at some badlands maps (godsmurf, you recently praised one yes?)...
dm12tmp = yes
dm11 = yes
generally give us something new...
im not fussed about max pkts settings, im on cable and dont notice an enormous difference when switching them.
Maps:
include new ones, maybe take a look at some badlands maps (godsmurf, you recently praised one yes?)...
dm12tmp = yes
dm11 = yes
generally give us something new...
im not fussed about max pkts settings, im on cable and dont notice an enormous difference when switching them.
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old.DC_Tantrum
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- #46
Maps: Someone mentioned that Q3mexx1 should be removed as games are frequently very close. I reckon it should be kept in for that very reason! Tight games are much more fun to play in or to spectate, nobody really enjoys 200-0 humpings. I'd like to see DM12tmp given a shot, along with one of the CPM teamplay maps (the name escapes me for now). There must be plenty of other TP maps worth testing out, after all if you don't shoot you don't score. Look how well CPM4 has turned out, I think that the majority of people (who have bothered to learn the map) will agree that it's fun to play
Settings: Being a cable'er I can't really comment here (especially as it's with NTHell). I will say however that when I was on ISDN Q3 was just as smooth as it is now, whether that had anything to do with there being less broadband users at the time I don't know. I *did* get smooth Q3 on ISDN though, with standard settings. Maybe if ISDNers accepted the limitations of their connection and didn't pump rate/maxpackets etc up so high it wouldn't be so 'unplayable'? That wasn't a dig before any of you get on your high horses....
Layout: I would have prefered to see a true pyramid structure. Division 1, Divisions 2a and 2b, Divisions 2a, 2b and 2c etc etc. I feel that having 1a and 1b devalues the whole thing ever so slightly as there will always be the arguments that clanX didn't play clanY and clanZ had an easier group. Ideally it would be a 4 single divisions (1 to 4 duh) and then a pyramid system after that, similar to the English football league. That's about the only thing the English got right
Defaults: I quite like the Clanbase wildcarding system, give a clan the chance to postpone one game per season (well in advance of the league night itself) on condition that the game is played out within the next 7 days. Additionally I would only allow clans to get away with 1 no-show. A second no show would see them removed from the league (and not allowed to enter the following season as a deterant) and every clan being awarded the points for beating them (regardless of whether they had played already) but NO frags. In the situation where a clan uses up their only allowable no-show, I would award the other clan involved a default victory, with the score being the average score of all the other games played that week in the same division. Not perfect but it's not like the football where teams just can't fail to show.
Ian/tant
Settings: Being a cable'er I can't really comment here (especially as it's with NTHell). I will say however that when I was on ISDN Q3 was just as smooth as it is now, whether that had anything to do with there being less broadband users at the time I don't know. I *did* get smooth Q3 on ISDN though, with standard settings. Maybe if ISDNers accepted the limitations of their connection and didn't pump rate/maxpackets etc up so high it wouldn't be so 'unplayable'? That wasn't a dig before any of you get on your high horses....
Layout: I would have prefered to see a true pyramid structure. Division 1, Divisions 2a and 2b, Divisions 2a, 2b and 2c etc etc. I feel that having 1a and 1b devalues the whole thing ever so slightly as there will always be the arguments that clanX didn't play clanY and clanZ had an easier group. Ideally it would be a 4 single divisions (1 to 4 duh) and then a pyramid system after that, similar to the English football league. That's about the only thing the English got right
Defaults: I quite like the Clanbase wildcarding system, give a clan the chance to postpone one game per season (well in advance of the league night itself) on condition that the game is played out within the next 7 days. Additionally I would only allow clans to get away with 1 no-show. A second no show would see them removed from the league (and not allowed to enter the following season as a deterant) and every clan being awarded the points for beating them (regardless of whether they had played already) but NO frags. In the situation where a clan uses up their only allowable no-show, I would award the other clan involved a default victory, with the score being the average score of all the other games played that week in the same division. Not perfect but it's not like the football where teams just can't fail to show.
Ian/tant
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bigfoot
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- #47
The main benefit to this system i feel is that the clans in the have more to play for. Last few seasons clans have been relatively safe from relegation because you can always rely on at least 2 or 3 clans to fold in each division during a long season (11 weeks or more). This way you have say 4 or 5 clans going for the top spots and the others fighting to avoid relegation. Come the final stages of the season nearly every game will have an impact on promotion or relegation, which is after all what we want to see imo. Games which mean something.
In some peoples views it devalues the league because there is no "l33t" Division 1 which people can boast about being part of, or aspire to be part of. My view is that Div1 last season it was pretty much always a two horse race, 4K and UNR were quite a bit ahead of most if not all clans in Div1 and whilst the gap may have looked like being closed at times the fact of the matter is they both finished 9 points clear of the nearest clan. Which is a hell of a margin.
If you look at the two groups i think there is a lot of talent there:
Group A - 4K, Cx, nEo, AAA, BiO are EuroCup 3 clans, WTF are a proven strong side reaching the WP final, Mr are improving all the time, BX and ROAR are the outsiders i guess. Dr had a solid season last time around at this level.
Group B - UNR, DC, gS, V are all EuroCup 3 clans, SS won the playoffs to stay up, HooD were close to winning that and have a long history of performing well at this level, hSb, masK and DiV are potential outsiders but masK especially are a strong side. Z had a solid season last time around at this level.
I think people might be surprised at the strength of some of these sides.
In some peoples views it devalues the league because there is no "l33t" Division 1 which people can boast about being part of, or aspire to be part of. My view is that Div1 last season it was pretty much always a two horse race, 4K and UNR were quite a bit ahead of most if not all clans in Div1 and whilst the gap may have looked like being closed at times the fact of the matter is they both finished 9 points clear of the nearest clan. Which is a hell of a margin.
If you look at the two groups i think there is a lot of talent there:
Group A - 4K, Cx, nEo, AAA, BiO are EuroCup 3 clans, WTF are a proven strong side reaching the WP final, Mr are improving all the time, BX and ROAR are the outsiders i guess. Dr had a solid season last time around at this level.
Group B - UNR, DC, gS, V are all EuroCup 3 clans, SS won the playoffs to stay up, HooD were close to winning that and have a long history of performing well at this level, hSb, masK and DiV are potential outsiders but masK especially are a strong side. Z had a solid season last time around at this level.
I think people might be surprised at the strength of some of these sides.
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old.Maverick
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- #48
The problem is though that you have changed the objective of the league. Before clans were playing to see how they compared against each other, now they are effectively playing to get one of the top three slots because anything else and they are just another also-ran.
Clanbase's Eurocup is a wonderful league to play in because you know that you will never ever have an easy game, in comparison last seasons BWDML was poorer because as well as several easy games there were also several defaults. This split is only going to increase this factor because of the newer clans, and also because you are adding unproven clans such as Roar to the division (have they actually even played a competitive game yet? how many times have their members left to form new clans?).
You make a fair point about many clans being safe due the number of defaulting clans, but this could just as easily have been fixed by modifying the promotion/relegation numbers.
I had hoped for some innovation and improvement in this seasons BWDML as it's remained unchanged for so long, maybe next season.
// maverick
Clan Demonic Core
http://www.DemonicCore.com
Clanbase's Eurocup is a wonderful league to play in because you know that you will never ever have an easy game, in comparison last seasons BWDML was poorer because as well as several easy games there were also several defaults. This split is only going to increase this factor because of the newer clans, and also because you are adding unproven clans such as Roar to the division (have they actually even played a competitive game yet? how many times have their members left to form new clans?).
You make a fair point about many clans being safe due the number of defaulting clans, but this could just as easily have been fixed by modifying the promotion/relegation numbers.
I had hoped for some innovation and improvement in this seasons BWDML as it's remained unchanged for so long, maybe next season.
// maverick
Clan Demonic Core
http://www.DemonicCore.com
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old.Ax
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- #49
I think Div 1 is always going to be a problem until there are teams on the same skillz level. Probably there are only 4 or 5 teams that are Div1 (they know who they are) so unless you have a "premier" league or sommit which would only be made up of 6 teams probably there ain't no obvious solution.
The two division ones are quite a good idea, and I do think some people may underestimate the strength of some of the clans placed in those divs, especially on a map like Mexx1 which always seems to be close. You are mad to even consider dropping Mexx.
WTF for example are a clan who are very often underrated, but they are extremely strong as a team.
I do doubt that this shift in divs will help with defaults but it may do, and the bruising of a few Div1 clans ego's is worth the risk I say.
We played a clan in the savage league on Tuesday night, and I have to say that some of the net settings used by them needs to be sorted, for example one player had a timenudge of -65 and maxpackets at 25, and there were quite a few players with "odd" connection settings. Needless to say this clan were all but impossible to hit warping all over the fukin shop.
I would suggest :
max negative timenudge -30
min maxpackets 30
max rate 8000
Dunno enough, to back that up with any techie speak, but from my experience that seems fair.
The two division ones are quite a good idea, and I do think some people may underestimate the strength of some of the clans placed in those divs, especially on a map like Mexx1 which always seems to be close. You are mad to even consider dropping Mexx.
WTF for example are a clan who are very often underrated, but they are extremely strong as a team.
I do doubt that this shift in divs will help with defaults but it may do, and the bruising of a few Div1 clans ego's is worth the risk I say.
We played a clan in the savage league on Tuesday night, and I have to say that some of the net settings used by them needs to be sorted, for example one player had a timenudge of -65 and maxpackets at 25, and there were quite a few players with "odd" connection settings. Needless to say this clan were all but impossible to hit warping all over the fukin shop.
I would suggest :
max negative timenudge -30
min maxpackets 30
max rate 8000
Dunno enough, to back that up with any techie speak, but from my experience that seems fair.
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old.Gibzzz
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- Thread starter
- #50
Hmm I would be careful of imposing a Min cap on maxpackets at too high a value (ie 30), the main issue with this is that some modemers cannot cope with maxpackets 30, and often need to tweak down to 25 for example.
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old.Broo
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- Thread starter
- #51
anything below 30 is practically cheating due to the warping effect it induces.
min maxpackets = 30
max maxpackets = 60
max rate 10k
snaps (does this make a difference) 20-60?
currently i use maxpkts 100 with snaps 60... but i wouldnt mind dropping those settings...
http://badlands.teamplay.net/d?e=33341234&p=6 steal some of those maps
or at least try them to see if they are suitable for bw (i dont like ngi, it seems too ffa-ish (ra is in a tight corridor with 3 entrances)
min maxpackets = 30
max maxpackets = 60
max rate 10k
snaps (does this make a difference) 20-60?
currently i use maxpkts 100 with snaps 60... but i wouldnt mind dropping those settings...
http://badlands.teamplay.net/d?e=33341234&p=6 steal some of those maps
or at least try them to see if they are suitable for bw (i dont like ngi, it seems too ffa-ish (ra is in a tight corridor with 3 entrances)
B
bigfoot
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- Thread starter
- #52
The servers were set as follows :
maxpackets lower level = 30
maxpackets upper level = 100
rate cap = 10000
timenudge lower level = -50
timenudge upper level = 100
for the majority of last season.
maxpackets lower level = 30
maxpackets upper level = 100
rate cap = 10000
timenudge lower level = -50
timenudge upper level = 100
for the majority of last season.
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old.Ax
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- Thread starter
- #53
Thats better than having no net limitation settings, but Broo's is more appropriate, however rate should be no more than 8000 imo. The person who mentioned modemers on maxpackets <30 obviously doesn't realise how much warping this causes, and its exaggerated further when people use modem connections, pinging at 150+.
Timenudge at -50 is a lot I feel and -30 max seems more reasonable.
I thought the maps were quite good last season, CPM4 was hated initially but most people seem to love it now. A couple or 3 new ones would add some interest though, but no more than 3 I feel.
Timenudge at -50 is a lot I feel and -30 max seems more reasonable.
I thought the maps were quite good last season, CPM4 was hated initially but most people seem to love it now. A couple or 3 new ones would add some interest though, but no more than 3 I feel.
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old.ajb|wtf
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- Thread starter
- #54
h00 h000
Ceno - pls pls pls pls PLS write a simple non lag alternative to OSP - that would really help the Q3 scene in the UK - hell everywhere
oh.. and Q3MEXX does indeed suck.
Jaffa
Ceno - pls pls pls pls PLS write a simple non lag alternative to OSP - that would really help the Q3 scene in the UK - hell everywhere
oh.. and Q3MEXX does indeed suck.
Jaffa
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old.ajb|wtf
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- Thread starter
- #55
divisions structure
I have to agree with Maverick here - the divisions now make the whole thing more of a qualify for the playoffs - rather than a win the league issue (playoff is an accepted standard in american leagues isnt it?) and i think it sucks to be honest - speaking from WTF pov - whole of last season was a waste of time - we could of got into div1 anyway....
also - I agree with Tants point too - why not div 1, 2, 3, and 4 - THEN a tier system - same as the football leagues - and nobody can argue that that system doesnt work well as football relegation/promotion issues often arent decided til the final game/s and are very exciting.
I have to agree with Maverick here - the divisions now make the whole thing more of a qualify for the playoffs - rather than a win the league issue (playoff is an accepted standard in american leagues isnt it?) and i think it sucks to be honest - speaking from WTF pov - whole of last season was a waste of time - we could of got into div1 anyway....
also - I agree with Tants point too - why not div 1, 2, 3, and 4 - THEN a tier system - same as the football leagues - and nobody can argue that that system doesnt work well as football relegation/promotion issues often arent decided til the final game/s and are very exciting.
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old.ajb|wtf
Guest
- Thread starter
- #56
Oh..
forgot to add my last point... reason I want to play in div1 is cos every game should be a damn tough game... as it stands - this wont be the case.
forgot to add my last point... reason I want to play in div1 is cos every game should be a damn tough game... as it stands - this wont be the case.
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bigfoot
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- Thread starter
- #57
You forget that the vast majority of Football Teams don't fold.
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old.Swelt
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- Thread starter
- #58
How many others would like to see a minimum extra compo mod? If it's lots, my bro has coded some mods (q2 eraser ultra / q3 domination) and could possibly be persuaded into coding summit simple...
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old.i*K
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- Thread starter
- #59
I'm on the side of q3mexx1 - Keep it please. It's a totally different map from the standard, which adds variety. Okay, some people don't like it, but I personally can't stand q3dm6tmp... would that be removed?
Connection restrictions. Fine as they are, it'd be damn hard to impose a broadband player restriction with the huge amount that actually do have cable/dsl now.
Self adminning. Not at all. As some clans take their league matches 'professionally', some could abuse this system and a lot of complaints would entail I'm sure, meaning more work for the organisers to sort the mess out.
Points system. Doesn't really matter does it? Fine as they are.
Three nights, yeah it seemingly has to be thought about now with the number of alternative league options around.
Defaulting clans. Three defaults and a clan should be removed. If a team can't get a squad of 4 or 5 people around, then tbh they shouldn't have signed up for the league in the first instance if they couldn't cover it.
I like the new divisional setup, in theory. Like someone mentioned before, splitting up Division1 doesn't really give people something to aim for now. I think maybe motivation could dwindle, hopefully I'm proved wrong. There is a standard amongst the big two (4K/UNR), but that's because they're in fact in a league of their own anyway. Exceptionally talented clans that aren't going to be touched. I'm also not too sure about the cup thing to decide the winner at the end either. Kind of defeats the point of a league system.
Erm, that's about it.
Have fun in S5 to all involved.
Kie/i*K
http://www.clan-induce.com
Connection restrictions. Fine as they are, it'd be damn hard to impose a broadband player restriction with the huge amount that actually do have cable/dsl now.
Self adminning. Not at all. As some clans take their league matches 'professionally', some could abuse this system and a lot of complaints would entail I'm sure, meaning more work for the organisers to sort the mess out.
Points system. Doesn't really matter does it? Fine as they are.
Three nights, yeah it seemingly has to be thought about now with the number of alternative league options around.
Defaulting clans. Three defaults and a clan should be removed. If a team can't get a squad of 4 or 5 people around, then tbh they shouldn't have signed up for the league in the first instance if they couldn't cover it.
I like the new divisional setup, in theory. Like someone mentioned before, splitting up Division1 doesn't really give people something to aim for now. I think maybe motivation could dwindle, hopefully I'm proved wrong. There is a standard amongst the big two (4K/UNR), but that's because they're in fact in a league of their own anyway. Exceptionally talented clans that aren't going to be touched. I'm also not too sure about the cup thing to decide the winner at the end either. Kind of defeats the point of a league system.
Erm, that's about it.
Have fun in S5 to all involved.
Kie/i*K
http://www.clan-induce.com
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old.wz|Acronym
Guest
- Thread starter
- #60
Right, maps.
Having kitted up with a new clan tag, I can now wade into this thread.
I don't rate cpm9 much; too easy to camp, and it'll either lead to complete ffa games or all-4-players-trapped-in-ra dullness. Almost as bad as the notorious UtI - someone (x3? I forget) game on Overkill which finished 29-26...
I like mrcq3dm5; might be worth seeing how it plays in the US Badlands tourney first, whereas cpm9/dm12 are in WP tonight, so we can be more conclusive about those then.
I haven't played q3ngiarena2 or qfraggel2, which people have said nice things about.
BTW, q3mexx1 is "alright"; a little too open for my taste, but it has LG on it, so can't be all bad.
Finally, on the connects issue; just doing the arithmetic for sending data (back of envelope stuff, errors and omissions excepted);
8 players on a map, need 6 bytes to describe position/velocity per player (two three-byte unsigned ints as vectors) = 48 bytes;
About thirty fixed-location items; one byte for each, to tell the client whether they're there or not = 30 bytes
In the case of ra spamming at DM7, about 30/40 plasma entities at 6 bytes each (approximately 180 bytes);
plus whatever the UDP header overhead is, which is less than 22 bytes that TCP inflicts; let's call it 8 (you need at least 8; sending address and receiving address, each being one word.)
So, on dm7 (excluding teamtalk and everything else), a typical packet will be around 266 bytes. Multiply this by 20 snaps a second, and you're looking immediately at just a little under 5K/second sustained data rate; a little more than this, such as the -huge numbers of- serverinfos OSP has (at least another 20 bytes/packet, or 0.4K/s), or a side who are on broadband and use plasma heavily (I know I do this; the plasma/LG are just radically more effective than the RL most of the time if you're SLPB), and you're looking at about 6/7K downstream packets.
The most ISDN can cope with, on 64K, is 8K/s; also, isdn does not have optimal behaviour for many small packets (I believe - please correct me if I'm wrong), which is what q3 shows. Obviously, as well, you aren't going to get 8K/s client-to-server with the best will in the world, on any dialup rig.
Therefore, ISDN is mighty close to lagging horribly at the best of times; any small stress on it, such as having 8 players in a room at the same time, is going to kick it over the edge into a ping-spiral-of-doom.
This is probably less noticeable against other ISDNers -because they have the same problem- : therefore, the playing field is level.
Broadbanders, however, don't lag, and therefore have a very large advantage over ISDNers in any kind of spammy 1v1. (Note this is pretty much independent of actual -ping-, which is fairly irrelevant IMO; pl and bandwidth are much more significant for the q3 netcode.)
Modemers, as ever, are completely doomed.
Waiting to be flamed by Strider about how wrong this all is,
Acronym
Having kitted up with a new clan tag, I can now wade into this thread.
I don't rate cpm9 much; too easy to camp, and it'll either lead to complete ffa games or all-4-players-trapped-in-ra dullness. Almost as bad as the notorious UtI - someone (x3? I forget) game on Overkill which finished 29-26...
I like mrcq3dm5; might be worth seeing how it plays in the US Badlands tourney first, whereas cpm9/dm12 are in WP tonight, so we can be more conclusive about those then.
I haven't played q3ngiarena2 or qfraggel2, which people have said nice things about.
BTW, q3mexx1 is "alright"; a little too open for my taste, but it has LG on it, so can't be all bad.
Finally, on the connects issue; just doing the arithmetic for sending data (back of envelope stuff, errors and omissions excepted);
8 players on a map, need 6 bytes to describe position/velocity per player (two three-byte unsigned ints as vectors) = 48 bytes;
About thirty fixed-location items; one byte for each, to tell the client whether they're there or not = 30 bytes
In the case of ra spamming at DM7, about 30/40 plasma entities at 6 bytes each (approximately 180 bytes);
plus whatever the UDP header overhead is, which is less than 22 bytes that TCP inflicts; let's call it 8 (you need at least 8; sending address and receiving address, each being one word.)
So, on dm7 (excluding teamtalk and everything else), a typical packet will be around 266 bytes. Multiply this by 20 snaps a second, and you're looking immediately at just a little under 5K/second sustained data rate; a little more than this, such as the -huge numbers of- serverinfos OSP has (at least another 20 bytes/packet, or 0.4K/s), or a side who are on broadband and use plasma heavily (I know I do this; the plasma/LG are just radically more effective than the RL most of the time if you're SLPB), and you're looking at about 6/7K downstream packets.
The most ISDN can cope with, on 64K, is 8K/s; also, isdn does not have optimal behaviour for many small packets (I believe - please correct me if I'm wrong), which is what q3 shows. Obviously, as well, you aren't going to get 8K/s client-to-server with the best will in the world, on any dialup rig.
Therefore, ISDN is mighty close to lagging horribly at the best of times; any small stress on it, such as having 8 players in a room at the same time, is going to kick it over the edge into a ping-spiral-of-doom.
This is probably less noticeable against other ISDNers -because they have the same problem- : therefore, the playing field is level.
Broadbanders, however, don't lag, and therefore have a very large advantage over ISDNers in any kind of spammy 1v1. (Note this is pretty much independent of actual -ping-, which is fairly irrelevant IMO; pl and bandwidth are much more significant for the q3 netcode.)
Modemers, as ever, are completely doomed.
Waiting to be flamed by Strider about how wrong this all is,
Acronym