BW Q3CTF League - Season 7 maps

[bigfoot]

If you choose not to practice maps once then it's not surprising you get kicked about on them, as last seasons record show though SO's problems were not simply due to new maps as you suggest yourself.

Your point about players wanting as good a game as possible, this is a vaild one but thats what we are trying to achieve by using these new maps as some of them have the potential to be better maps than ones we have previously used in the league. I had people asking me to use loads of the CP maps last season and in the end we used just 3, 1 of which we had used before under a different name so wasn't really new nehow.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree, i think it is important that the league make best use of all the available maps to it whereas you would prefer us to keep using the same old maps season in season out. As you suggest this may be because it makes things easier for a clan such as yourself which is on the brink, having the same old maps is one less thing to worry about in trying to keep your clan going.

 

[Ozh]

"I think CTF2 on balance should stay. [...] Variety again."

That's *exactly* why I think CTF2 should be taken off. Variety. I'm just too boooorrred of playing this map. For me it's like tourney2, when it comes to screen I go "hooo noooo, not *again*"

I'm not playing this map any more. If it is to be played this season, I'll let another clanmate play for me. If there's not enough players available, we'll default the match
But I'd rather play CS.

 

[old.EntropyQ3]

"Feel free to frag the messenger. "

Cheap shots at +SO+ were not implied.

Like many other clans, +SO+ does not, currently, have a clan-server. Which means that before last season, they could only try to get hold of one of the few OSP servers that had the new maps. Those were under heavy pressure, which in turn meant that +SO+ were basically reduced to remaining BW-bookable time.

We subsequently borrowed servers from other clans and individuals. (Thanks guys!)

It might be wise to consider just how much time a clan without their own server can reasonably be expected to put in on this seasons new maps.
How far off will the season be when the new maps are made official?
How many will be new?
How many practice sessions will a clan (without their own server) reasonably be able to put in per map?
How will that affect their possibilities of producing quality play?

These questions do not have to be answered here and now though.
I believe identifying quality maps was the topic at hand.

Entropy

 

[bigfoot]

If a clan chooses to enter the league then they should be prepared to put the effort in to do things like learn new maps, if you want to just flounce along then play friendlies and don't bother joining leagues.

We will continue to use new maps and try to improve the overall map pool quality, if maps come along which add something to the mix then they will be used. From what you said earlier you are still perfecting your skillz on maps which have been around for a good 18months or so, will it take another 18months before you accept the recently released maps as acceptable for competition play?

 

[Sar]

Xpd (Div 2a, as we declined an offered div 1 place, best defensive record in the league last season etc etc.. Serious ctf clan?) don't have our own server, and were therefore "reduced" to using bookable servers all the time, and we get plenty of practice in, at least 6 hours a week on CTF alone (and we play TDM and are considering Proball as well!). If you're serious about playing competitive CTF then you'll find the time to practice, simple as that.

To be perfectly frank Ent, it sounds as though you're claiming to be a serious CTF player, but just can't be bothered to put the time and effort into being just that. Something wrong there no? Maybe you want the high division status without expending the effort to earn that status and are obviously therefore happy for the status quo in the map pool to remain so you can get by on what maps you already know?

Either way, playing on the same maps season after season is boring, and new maps are vital to keep up interest and keep people thinking and devising new tactics.

If you can't be bothered to even practice new maps then that isn't a valid reason for not wanting new maps in the league. It's up to you and your clan to find the time to practice maps - it's not the responsibility of the league to cater to lazy players who feel safe (and therefore happy) on maps they've already been playing for 3/4 seasons.

Playing in leagues is all about being challenged, improving your squads general play and level of skill & quality. You can do none of these things playing within a stagnant map pool.

 

[old.EntropyQ3]

"If a clan..."

FFS. Leave off +SO+.
I'm 38 years old. I see what you're doing. Stop it.

If it takes my leaving +SO+ and the league, I'll do that, and keep my mouth shut.

Entropy

 

[old.SmoKe-23]

Maps

Use Heat (q3wc3) and Showdown (q3wc5) cos they rocked in Q2

 

[old.ketaMine]

I'd keep c2 over w1 & w3 anyday, it's tricks, speed and unpredictability rule.

c2,
w1 (revised one)
w2
w3/cp1
w5
cp9
cp11/cp12

Huge changes so soon after the maps are out tho would be silly before everyone's had a good few games on them. Bit hard if your at work all the time :\

I hope cp7's out there's far more superior maps to that.

 

[old.+SO+Moth]

Originally posted by bigfoot
If a clan chooses to enter the league then they should be prepared to put the effort in to do things like learn new maps, if you want to just flounce along then play friendlies and don't bother joining leagues.

Considering we have so far never defaulted a game, defied your predictions for relegation by gaining promotion twice and had damn good fun in the process I don't consider we have flounced along. Entropy (someone who has given his system some serious mileage carry it back and forth to a friend's house since his ISP began playing silly buggers), is probably one of the most dedicated, articulate and intelligent people in the scene. The fact he has backed up his argument with more than "don't use q3xxxxx it sux" gets him and the clan shot down as flouncing whingers by the Head of Organised Gaming is a bit hard to take.

We don't consider ourselves a 'top' clan. We pride ourselves on playing to the best of our ability and having fun. We don't postpone games because we can't field the A team (the single time we were short, we were told we couldn't anyway). We'd never use mercs, put down other clans, slag the admins, and all the other things 'top' clans are supposed to do. We very rarely complain. And yet we are trashed by one of the head admins for putting forward a reasoned argument? Perhaps we're not quite up to Div 1 standard on the forums either?

We would like to learn the new maps but the league is not really the best place to be thrown into them. Perhaps BW could add the proposed maps onto the pubbies so that they can be learned the way we learned the others? By playing them night after night in on the popular pubbies, taking ideas from there to praccy servers and then onto the league. It makes sense to allow new maps to bed in and for classics to be found and flawed ones to be thrown out before putting it into a competitive situation.

From what you said earlier you are still perfecting your skillz on maps which have been around for a good 18months or so, will it take another 18months before you accept the recently released maps as acceptable for competition play?

That all depends on the server admins. Let's get the new maps out there for the masses to stress test. Up till now the only servers I've found with 3wave on are the two savage ones, and that's generally voted into CCTF or CS mode. And we are constantly honing our skillz. We're never gonna be perfect.

Rant mode off.

+SO+ Moth

 

[old.exp]

true, with all these new maps i cant be arsed learning each one, so i will wait until whats going to be used for the league, by the time that happens we'll have a short time to learn them. Public servers are useless always cctf, puts me off but its either play cctf or play them offline, offline is boring and i aint got much time with work and stuff. Dont expect me to be available 24/7 there is another life apart from gaming.

 

[bigfoot]

I sympathise with Entropys situation if it is as you have explained however i also think that its pretty unique and shouldn't be the basis for making a decision on whether or not to include new maps.

The point about playing maps over extended periods of time, i simply do not agree with this. It is my experience that Leagues are the driving force behind maps, in general if leagues do not use certain maps then they will rarely get played on public servers and if leagues do use other maps then they will be played quite often. For example i cannot remember the last time i play q3ctf3, its probably been months, and i don't miss it at all. By contrast i've played many a practice with cp5, cp1 or cp7 and played them on public servers quite often. In the past we have tried using public servers as test beds for league maps and it doesnt work, people simply do not play them because they know that the vast majority of the maps will not make it into the league so there is little point when you have a decent set of 4 or 5 maps already which you know you will get a good game on and dont have to bother learning the map first.

SO struggled last season, there is little doubt there given your record and Entropys comments and whilst you, to my knowledge, have never helped out with the league in all the seasons you have been in you are a valued participant in it. That said i am not going to hold back the league from developing because your clan needs time to regroup and the extra hassle of learning and practicing new maps is too much.

I do take the point that at least some time is needed to get to grips with new maps when they are selected, you will have noticed (perhaps) that in all previous seasons when we have included new maps they haven't been introduced until Week 3 usually so clans have had 4 weeks to get to grips with them from when the fixtures had been posted, regardless of any play on them before hand.

 

[old.Talsa]

Maps...

Ehr, where to begin...
w4 looks fairly acceptable, w5 was so much better imho though.....and cp12, looks quite cool - I think that one would have a nice gameplay.....but hey! where did cp7 go!?!? despite its weird pu/ra timing it had a really enjoyable gameplay...so did cp6, but it had a bad habit of becomming more railonly on the midfield than ctf
Japanese castle and ctf2 on the other hand.....those 2 maps is my definition of tdm with a flag in it....don' t think it really has the gameplay to be used in a ctf league like bw....and I have no idea how the f*** it survived as long as they did, hope it's over now?
cp5....it's an okay map really, the ya's should prolly be replaced by the ra though....it's hard to defend it, but once you get use to it it has a nice an acceptable level of fun gameplay
bu WTF is up with w1 now?
played KoTr on it yesterday, man they (3wave crew, not KoTr ) ruined that map - the midle is a few meters shorter than it use to....and those big pillar things in front of the entrance to the midle.....omg it sucked, forced both teams to go more def than before - becoz the midle ain't really worth dominating anymore....I think it would be more beneficial to drop the new w1 and replace it with a new map if it's not possible to use the old one?
so my reply on the 'perfect' map pool for season 7 would be:
wctf1, w2, w3, cp12, w5 and perhaps cp7 or cp5?
I reeeaaally hope season 6 was the last one ever to use japanCTF! and I hope for a good season

 

[old.keyser]

How many of you actually played the new w1?

I mean when thought about the game before we were like
'wow at last it much easier to get past that middle'

Should be easier to cap, but no. It's actually got slower, since normally you would rj up to the quad or you would speed via ya. You cant to that anymore which forces you to be such an easy target.

And the middle? It turned out to be mg ffa now instead of rail/shaft at least.

I think this is cuz the distance to the other side is quite a bit shorter and that way mg bullets hit quite a lot more making it a way stronger weapon.

This also slows the map down quite alot since you have to worry alot more about spawning players in the middle. And not just run for it =).

This is really quake3 from it worst side. mg ffa .

So all I can say is to actually play the god damn lvl cuz it might change your view on the modifications that has been made. Also this really apply's to online play only, LAN changes the game quite a bit as we all (should) now =).

 

[old.keyser]

one more thing

Please lets not use japanese castle, it is such a terrible ctf map, and imo it has only got the attention because of the different, and indeed the very nice theme.

But come on guys, the gameplay stinks. So little flag action that it has lost the actual 'ctf' point.

Besides, the spawns/flag area are so incredible bad..... Lets kick that map out for good.

 

[old.SmoKe-23]

Japan

Yeah I agree, the map sucks, though [NC] rock on it

 

[old.Eggy[POTZW]]

CP9 Spider Crossings. Hey a Crossings map i actually think is good. Very good. Had 4 or 5 5v5/6v6/7v7(bloody public player limts.. games on this and everyone has been enjoyable. It seems a perfect vanillaCTF map.

I agree with Keyser partly about W1. To be honest i was hoping they would alter the structure of the base and outer base and even more outer base, rather than the middle as they have done. Doh! That was the problem, not the middle. I was in favour of dropping the old W1. However i say give this new version a try for a season, we are familiar with tis basic structure/tactics so lets see if it does play differently over the course of a season.

Im finding W4 plays like a 4v4 map with a bottleneck and easy defence, ala q3ctf3...

W5 might work, but feels a bit fiddly to play, narrow spaces, arches etc etc..

Still looking...

Did i mention i think CP9 is a go-er?

 

[old.Wiiija]

I think wcp1 is a class map and should be kept!

 

[old.NiTrox]

m0jn

would like to se cp7 and w5 in the next league.. and imo the new w1 really sux. how about replacing it with wctf1.. the middle is so screwed up. and plz (PLZ!) stfu japcastle sux0r map of the century

 

[old.[wC]BIL]

have played some praccs on Q3WC5 and its gonna be a hard task capping on that one, mayby it should be replaced with q3w5 wich is a great map,,, well thats my thoughts after some playtesting

the other 2 new maps are great

at last i must agree with "NiTrox" the new w1 isnt very good take the old one back...... plz

 

[old.[WC]Eer0]

damned i looked forward to q3wc5
naah after i tried it on a practise i realised that it wont be many
caps.. same goes for the new W1 map.

So out with w1 and in with wctf1.. or even better replace wctf1
with what ever map out there plz ?

 

[Sar]

CP11 - good map, but lacking in armour from what I can see.

Should be some good games on it though