Burglars

[Wij]

I lost my entire CD collection which I had been building since I was 12. I also lost everything else in my house at the time.

My Grandma pretty much lost her sanity.

Death's too good for them... But it's a start.

 

[xane]

Tony Martin's sentence was cut from Murder (life) to Manslaughter (5 years) on appeal, he must have done at least 3 years by now so he's up for parole, which is probably why this scumbag wants to sue him.

I can only advise that if you do have to "defend yourself" you target your assailants legs rather than head or upper body, that way you have less chance of causing serious injury and also by disabling the attacker you limit their movement, better for running away (in the case of a mugging) or getting the police round (in the case of an intruder).

Not trying to make light of it, I'm sure I'd be freaking out if I discovered some stranger in my kitchen at 3am, but as many criminals often use laws designed to protect victims you need to be very careful.

 

[Perplex]

Originally posted by kanonfodda


If he shot them in the back, then they were not attacking him at the time, therefore, he already had the upper hand. Kind of points to the fact that they were either:
a) running away.
or
b) not aware of his presence

In either case, he was not acting in 'Self Defence'

Exactly

 

[Perplex]

Ok, first and foremost - everyone hates burglers. Stop stating the obvious peeps (Munkey)

Second of all, if you're crazy enough to confront an intruder in your house, then you need help. You have no idea if they are armed, crazy, hopped up on crack/pcp etc. Lock your bedroom door, pick your mobile phone up, dial 999, pray.

By confronting them you are forcing a situation that is quite stable, into one that is explosive and will *only* have a negative outcome

 

[Durzel]

It's a good theory, but in practice faced with someone in your house, especially if you have children - you'd be forgiven for resorting to vigilante justice. It's all about limits really, giving a burglar a body massage (with a baseball bat) and using your shotgun to make the holiest-of-holies (in someones back) ain't the same ballpark, it ain't even the same league. It ain't even the same f**king sport™.

That said, I think manslaughter is a "fair" charge given the mitigating circumstances, murder is a bit extreme.

By the way,

I also agree that their sentences were pathetic.

Given one of them was killed (by aforementioned shotgun), it's hard to see how any sentence worse than death could be bestowed upon them.

 

[Gumbo]

Sorry to bring this up again, but according to the local paper, (I live in Norfolk), the burgler (Fearon) has been awarded £5000 in legal aid to prepare his case, and will receive a bunch more when it goes to trial.

 

[Summo]

Nothing new there. Legal Aid is Legal Aid. £5000 is nothing. Occasionally EVEN TEH GUILTY GET TEH LEGEL AIDS!!!!1!

 

[Testin da Cable]

max frustration isn't it?
one can't do anything at all really. proactive measures seem to do next to nothing, reactive measures will get you screwed.
I have no idea what I'd do. Thank god I've never been burgled heh.

 

[Dimebag]

!danger¡

quote -
If you pointed a shotgun at anyone at medium/long range, you'd kill them - irrespective of where you were pointing on them.
-

Surely you mean short range / point blank dear?
Seeing as the shot spreads the further away they are the less likely they will take the brunt of it and die? Or am I being silly?


Back to the main issue, this sure is a tough one. Me being all in favour of the death penalty provokes a responce of "I dont give a damn" if they got shot or not. Wanna rob someone, take the consequences, but on the other hand there was the fact the lad wasnt threatening the farmer, he was running away does put it in a different light.

If im totally honest I think its a great victory for victims. These guys had records as long as my leg and they werent going to stop. This 16 year old scum bag has been taken out of society once and for all and i think the farmer did everyone a favour. Sod what the "parents" of the kid thought, they might suddenly claim to care about his wellbeing after 16 years of not doing their job properly by the sounds of it. As for this other guy trying to sue the farmer for damages, i think he should have his face cut off at the mention of it, and the legal system be somehow changed so that utter utter scumbags like this person cannot do this.

Just what I think anyway, something to do when you're a bit bored at work

Just incase... This is nothing to do with the opion of anyone assosiated with the NHS, it is my personal view. (This bit is just incase anything gets picked up of where this originated and me being at work on someone elses login nullifys them of being in any trouble, or something.)

 

[xenon2000]

 

[kanonfodda]

Trespassers will be prostituted

always my favorite.

 

[Will]

Well, I missed this thread, but Perp and Stu have summed up my views on the whole thing nicely. I remember this dicussion from when the whole thing originally happened, where were you then Stu, eh?

Though I have no idea why the farmer tried to defend himself as "It's my right to shoot people" rather than the more realistic "I'm a crazy old bastard who needs mental help, I sleep holding a shotgun and think everyone wants to break into my house and steal my stuff"

 

[Wij]

he didn't just think it. they did. several times.

KIIIIL

 

[Gumbo]

Yep he had been broken into a number of times, as had a lot of people in the same area, they were all complaining about the lack of policing etc...

In a sense, This was kind of inevitable, cos eventually inneffectual policing is going to lead to someone taking it upon themselves to do something.

Oh, and the number of burglarys in the North-West Norfolk area has fallen dramatically, I guess the thieiving Did's might have realised that Tony Martin aint the only local with a 12 bore.

And also where the hell did this running away when they were shot idea come from? What, they ran away from Didsville Lincolnshire all the way to this guys farmhouse? Then smash there way in through a barricaded window looking for sanctuary.

And Fearon was shot in the legs, not the back as has been mentioned on here, besides it was the middle of the night, and there was no electricity in that part of the house, so Martin was blazing away in the dark, not taking careful aim at a poor frightened, fleeing, mans unprotected back.

 

[Dimebag]

The theives were no hoper scum with a massive criminal record. They were not going anywhere in life aside from the local prinson where honest tax payers would have had to pay for their upkeep.

Yes they were fleeing, so fucking what? They broke into someones house, realised they might not get away with it so tried to run away, i call that their problem to be honest.

The fact that one is dead is a great victory for victims, he wont do it again, and he will not be missed. As for the other guy he should basically get locked up for as long as possible with his anus being torn by a very big black man every single night for 20 years.

I dont see how people can just turn round and take pity on utter utter scum after they have basically got what was comming to them in the first place.

Maybe killing the guy was over the top, and i know it certainly isnt legal, but look at it this way, he wont annoy/steal/hurt anyone again. Better this way.

Dime

 

[bodhi]

Harsh but fair, Dime.

Was what he did legal? No.

Was what he did fair? Yes.

 

[wolfeeh]

urgggh

been away a few days so this is a little belated... but consider this;

right as previously stated it's dark, there's no electricity etc... tony dude is just blazing away... but what if there was light, and he could see they were running away....

so fucking what?

it's called REGROUP.

what if they'd just ducked behind the nearest settee, and popped up again with M16's with grenade launchers? ready to maim his fucking ass?

at the very least they may run into the kitchen and come back with carving knives....

just because they are facing away from you doesn't mean jack shit.


second of all perplex's advice....

you what?

do not confront teh enemy!?

your in a house in the dark.... i dunno about you but my house is deathly silent at night, and i live on the main road for the area, right next to a large pub.... so anyway, it's silent... i can hear my hamster running on his wheel downstairs through two closed doors... it's not exactly loud, but i can hear it....

so anyway.. locks... on my bedroom door!? i certainly don't have any... and i've never been in a house that has had them. so i'm to alert burglars that the house is a) occupied, and b) i'm awake and aware of their prescence by calling the police.... whence they take a bare minimum of ooooh 5 mins (and that is being superbly generous) to arrive at my house and find me dead.

am i fuck. ima lie in ambush, hoping they fuck off, and if they don't one of them is gonna walk around the corner into a baseball bat (and yes i do have one, they are ubiquitous... why? fuck knows. anyway).

now on the other hand, if i had a gun or other offensive weapon - RPG7? Redeemer.... i sure as shit am gonna shoot to kill.

what if they've got guns? i know! lets shoot them in the legs... injure them.... that's reasonable force! yey! then they proceed to fucking shoot me in the head. good game.

if someone breaks into ya house, ya property, reasonable force is DEADLY force to defend your life. fuck, look at all them third world countries racked by civil war... there was that thing on the bbc the other day with this 8 year old guerilla kid with an AK47 who had killed ppl.

if an 8 year old can kill someone any fucking intruder can.

[btw, this is not teh personal against perplex, it's just he raises most of the points i'm opposed against]

stu- feel free to come batter me with your legal kung fu.. i don't really give a shit, i know that every single thing i just said is right and true. don't give a fuck what the law says about it

 

[stu]

Behold the result of our pop-culture

 

[wolfeeh]

cough

behold the result of our politically correct times.

you telling me that a man has no right to feel safe in his own home?

so you feel it's up to the police to ensure the peace, and guarantee safety of citizens?

so where's my personal bodyguard man?

or more importantly where are the cunts when my car is being vandalised by someone keying it? 4 times it's happened now. in <6 weeks..... metallic paint.... costs a fortune to repair... what can the police do? shit all? but we kno who does it.

you are severely misguided if you think *i* am in the wrong

 

[Mellow-]

I don't think your idea is wrong. I just think the way you describe things there aren't any laws in Wales.

 

[Wij]

You may use the language of a mental patient but I agree with much of it Wolfeh

If I have a gun, am I supposed to wait till the burglar starts shooting at me to decide that it is now morally right to fire back ? Might be a bit late by then

There may be situations where I can hide under the bed and wait for the cops but not all situations will work like that. Sometimes you're going to have to confront them and in my own home I'd feel quite justified getting in first assuming I hadn't already alerted them by filling the house with the stench of Wij-p00

 

[wolfeeh]

hee he

thank you messrs mellow and wij.

they aren't laws anywhere wij :/

'cept maybe the states


anyway, what's wrong with my language, i thought it was bold, colourful and descriptive

 

[stu]

Re: cough

Originally posted by wolfeeh
you are severely misguided if you think *i* am in the wrong

No, the point was, just about everything you said was driven by films/tv/computer games, not reality.

Here's a quick fact for you: less than 2% of burglaries involve any interaction between criminal and victim. Of these, the vast majority are burglar breaks in/spooked by homeowner/burglar runs.

Here's another: Of these, less than 5% involve an armed perpetrator. Of armed pepetrators, less than 10% are using a firearm.

So you've got roughly a 0.0001% chance of, should you be a victim of a burglarly, being involved in a confrontation with an intruder using a firearm.

That's the difference between a computer game and real life.

so you feel it's up to the police to ensure the peace, and guarantee safety of citizens?

Yes, that's pretty much the definition of "Law Enforcement". But, as a counter point - do you, therefore, feel that it is up to the public to enforce the law?

 

[wolfeeh]

you what

i'm sorry what the fuck, are you one of them fucktards that thinks people are driven by computer games to commit crimes etc etc.....? that's what your first statement implies.

quick fact for you
99.9% of statistics are made up on the spot.

i don't really give a shit what percentage of burglaries have any interaction between criminal and victim, having been in a fucking house that was burgled, and we got disturbed etc, my dad woke up, mucho chaos ensues etc... so that teeny weeny percentage... i've BEEN in.

it doesn't matter what percentage of them actually involve an armed perpetrator... how do you tell if someone is armed? you don't.

anyway, just to justify my earlier comments, which ANY fucking idiot could clearly identify was meant to provide a little interest in my analysis (wij, mellow et al can actually spot this, pity you can't)

M16's have been around for what, 35, 40 years? there must be what... 12 million off households in the uk?

you telling me that in 40 years, and with over 12 million possible targets, no one has ever had their house broken into by M16 toting perpetrators?

completely irrelevant i know, but just a point to show what an arse you are.

by all means the police ARE there to enforce the law etc.... but they are not omnipresent are they? they aren't going to be there one dark and rainy night when some motherfucker sticks a jimmy through the window of my backdoor and proceeds to remove the contents of my house... possibly heinously murdering me in the process.... it is by all means my god given right to defend myself... or don't tell me... you deny that too?

anyway, an interesting point occured to me while i was in town earlier.... most of you lot are i imagine big city dwellers... how many of you have every actually had pikeys on your doorstep?

we've had them around here for years... to say that the whole lot of them are thieving shitbags is not an understatement... no particular point with this statement... just wondering if any of you have direct experience with them....

[oh to save me doing it later, i may as well add for the record that a large branch of my family off on my mum's side distantly is of gypsy origin - their still shits).

 

[stu]

I can't be bothered to argue with you to be honest. What I was asking was a conceptual question but if 1) you can't put together a valid argument without insults and 2) you actually believe in this fantasy world where your average criminal has access to military hardware, there's clearly no convincing you.

 

[wolfeeh]

lol

are you and stu conjoined twins or something?

i just pwned perp in irc

sorry if i seemed to be personally insulting u tho, it's just that u have a very jaded view of the world :>

what is it you actually do anyway, or that qualifies you to make all these conceptual points that you want us to take seriously?

 

[Perplex]

Re: lol

Originally posted by wolfeeh
i just pwned perp in irc

[12:02:06] <Perplex> wolfy - don't you get it you utter welsh twat? if a person has 35k to spend on a automatic assault rifle - do you think they are gonna come and steal your VCR and sony walkman? THINK ABOUT IT MCFLY
[12:02:25] <rataxis> Perplex++ # nicely put

<ZaPpeh> wolfy, its highly unlikely, like perp says the gun is worth a hell of a lot more than the average stuff he could take from a house

[12:06:23] -<<someone>>- look dude, I stopped talking to him when I worked out what a fucking moron he is. give up

[12:04:11] <Dimebag> i really have found when dealing with welsh people its just not worth trying to "win"

[12:05:00] <Dimebag> im serious :| they dont give in, they dont see they are wrong and will call you names till they are blue in the face

etc

 

[throdgrain]

Slightly off the argument topic, but perhaps to calm peeps down a bit, a freind of mines parents live in South Africa, god only know why, but there if you find someone in your house, and they have one of the worst crime rates in the world, you surely do shoot first and ask questions later. They say after you've fired to put a couple of rounds in the ceiling to give the impression of "warning shots".
Them blokes over there walk around with little handbags, a bit wierd I would of thought for such a "macho" stereotypes, but apparently its where they keep thier handguns !

 

[stu]

Re: lol

Originally posted by wolfeeh
are you and stu conjoined twins or something?

i just pwned perp in irc

sorry if i seemed to be personally insulting u tho, it's just that u have a very jaded view of the world :>

what is it you actually do anyway, or that qualifies you to make all these conceptual points that you want us to take seriously?

I studied Law at University, and I'm joining the Police force in about 2 months.

Strangely enough, both of these require you to know something about criminal justice.

 

[wolfeeh]

lol perp

i like the way you left out hez' comments stating how over the top you were being... but then your not gonna scupper your entire argument are you, cos then people will realise what an arse your being.

stu - mate, never said it wasn't the law.. i'm not talking about law though, i'm talking about what you'd do if you confronted a burglar in your own home. as i think everyone but you and perp have actually realised.