Bully Themed Game

[Doomy]

Would a film about bullying be bad? Would you ban it, even if it was an 18 certificate already?

The problem is that people seem to assume games will get into childrens hands. Surely that is a problem with access to the product, rather than the product itself?

A film wouldnt be banned because the subject matter would be theoretically portrayed by real people with real reactions in a real way. I think the people who choose to ban stuff like this have the idea that games have no ability to portray such an emotive subject properly. Whether this is true or not is totally opinion, but I cant name a game that has made me think about anything worthy of thought outside in the real world. Ever.

I do find it hilarious when self admitted games go off on one about how dare they treat us like kids. A gamer will argue the point that their hobby is one that they are 'mature enough' to do without anyone saying otherwise, like elspa. I dont believe that all these decisions are there to piss of gamers and I do feel that for this game (for all we know about it) will not be able to get the heartstrings tugging, its going to be more of a vein popper.

Film has exactly the same. But they are called video nasties and are usually banned. Why shouldnt games have the same?

 

[Moving Target]

Counterstrike didn't make me shoot anyone in the head, GTA didn't make me nick a car.

This is a poor comparison. Shooting someone in the head and stealing a car is much more drastic for a school pupil whereas they can easily bully other children.

I'm not actually sure whether more children would bully people because of a game though, it's not like they need an excuse. If they're not bullying by the time they hypothetically get the game, it might not affect them at all. And yes, they shouldn't be getting the game at all but that's impossible :\

 

[]AC[dRuM]

I don't think that arguement really holds much water, but it is one that will be used. Counterstrike didn't make me shoot anyone in the head, GTA didn't make me nick a car.

Very true, but the psychology behind all violent games is a very serious issue. As much as each of us is an individual with our own tastes and desires the same can be said for people's responses to interactive media. For some the ability to just be able to pretend for a couple of hours they are in fact a bad ass mother fu*ker that kills, mames and has respect 'in da hood' is enough, after which they can successfully detach from the game and return to a normal productive life. For others however they want this life so badly they have a hard time 'unplugging' or they recreate the same or similar situations in their own life for real, sometimes with devastating consequences.

Now although most well rounded individuals do not have a difficult time differentiating between reality and fantasy there is always a small proportion that cannot for whatever reason. If and when this does happen the consequences can lead to a horrific experience for otherwise normal people, who is too blame? Some psychiatrists would even question the desire to want to pretend to kill someone at all. If you enjoy pretending to kill someone in a virtual capacity does this mean that you are satisfying a base need in your psyche that has the potential to explode out of control given the unpredictability of a violent act?

Many moral questions, those that choose the moral high ground in this debate who play violent games of any nature need to take a long hard look at themselves and ask why they feel the need to participate in a violent act even if it is recreated in a virtual capacity, at whatever level (I include myself in this bracket of gamers). I personally believe the human condition leaves even the most well adjusted individuals seeking a bigger thrill in whatever capacity, almost as if your brain becomes addicted to the rush, the danger is when it spills out into real life.

Basically we are a greedy, consumer society that is ever ready to jack up on the next instalment of thrill seeking. If it wasn't the case then millions wouldn't be invested in selling us the latest and greatest (whatever). I like the comment about Rockstar doing things for shock value and I also agree this may lead an adult audience to turn off on the basis of future works lacking in creativity. Either way the machine has worked we are all talking about it, a job well done by the RS marketing machine.

I wonder what the next instalment of real life shocker violence will be from RSG? Pedophile Gang Rape Racing? Baby Killers Go Ape? The 9/11 Flight Simulator? Or maybe their next marketing strategy will be to wipe their arse on the cover and sell it as is?

Thats a novel idea, bound to cause a stir

I played cops and robbers as a kid, cowboys and indians etc, that is not an issue. The issue for me is the level of interaction games provide and the affect on certain weak individuals. Who can safely assure me that games with controversial subject matter will definitely not have an effect on a small element of society, some may say an already fragile society that is getting worse not better.

Do supporters of ultra violent subject matter feel it provides a service, like the Colosseum did for the Romans?

 

[Calaen]

these people really get up my rectum.
why dont they-
ban need for speed because it promotes illegal street racing?
ban games based on real life events because it is making light of a serious matter?
ban C&C based games as it trains people to be commanders in a war?
ban shooting games at arcades cos it trains you be a shooting guy?

ive coverd most areas there, i would love for someone who supports these people to come and answer my questions.

In a few words Tris your full of shit, I recall a couple of months ago you making alot of posts about people getting bullied and beat up by Chavs and how they where cowards and they should all die blah blah blah.

Yet here you are defending a game that gives these chavs their ideas. You cant piss and moans like a bitch about people bullying then say buts its ok for them to make a game about it.

 

[Calaen]

(carried on from above darn editing feature)

Yes it is always a minority of these kids that go off on one but there is more than enough bullying without something like this adding to it.

With regards to a movie as has already been mentioned, atleast then people who didnt just play games would see the emotional side/effects on the victim and it would raise awareness in a good way.

Finally I play games to test myself against other people I have no desire to shoot, maim, kill, stab anyone and I will gladly play a track and field game if there where alot of other people playing it to test my ability against. I play games because I am very competitive I love sports, playing Football, Golf, Tennis, Badminton and pretty much anything else where it requires more than one person to take part to make it more enjoyable.

I enjoy interacting with other people through games like CS:S & BF2 it gives me a virtual outlet kind of like paintballing which I love and while it does not fully create the running around screaming commands and making game plans it is a nice substitute.

 

[Chilly]

Would a film about bullying be bad? Would you ban it, even if it was an 18 certificate already?

The problem is that people seem to assume games will get into childrens hands. Surely that is a problem with access to the product, rather than the product itself?

Ah, you mean like the film Scum? Basicly about a boys prison, graphic depiction of bullying and down right battering of black guys. Did it get banned? Did it fuck! It's an excellent film showing the nightmare of the youth prison system, and at the time the larger occurance of racism.

 

[Louster]

Some psychiatrists would even question the desire to want to pretend to kill someone at all. If you enjoy pretending to kill someone in a virtual capacity does this mean that you are satisfying a base need in your psyche that has the potential to explode out of control given the unpredictability of a violent act?

I honestly disagree with this. The violence in games, as I see it, is pretty much irrelevant; it's just a way of defining the puzzle or challenge. Your reactions have to be better than someone else's to win, and therein lies the fun - the fact that the method used to portray this concept is an 'imitation' of violence isn't really the point, it's that it's often just the most direct, visceral and coherent way. On the other hand, the Freeze Tag mod is an interesting example of something that doesn't involve killing still being fun, and the entire puzzle game genre is another. It's just competition.

Of course, there're the games where the violence can pretty much be said to be for its own sake, and I think they're mostly just about breaking the taboo. For instance, Manhunt was pretty gratuitous - there was still a game in there, but it was mostly played just to see the novel and gruesome ways in which you could kill somebody. This is an incredibly minor subset of gaming, though.

I played cops and robbers as a kid, cowboys and indians etc, that is not an issue. The issue for me is the level of interaction games provide and the affect on certain weak individuals. Who can safely assure me that games with controversial subject matter will definitely not have an effect on a small element of society, some may say an already fragile society that is getting worse not better.

Sure, but who can safely assure you that anything will definitely not have an effect on this small, fragile element of society?

 

[Will]

Ah, you mean like the film Scum? Basicly about a boys prison, graphic depiction of bullying and down right battering of black guys. Did it get banned? Did it fuck! It's an excellent film showing the nightmare of the youth prison system, and at the time the larger occurance of racism.

Ten out of ten. Go to the top of the class.



Fucking swot....gimme your lunch money...

 

[tris-]

In a few words Tris your full of shit, I recall a couple of months ago you making alot of posts about people getting bullied and beat up by Chavs and how they where cowards and they should all die blah blah blah.

Yet here you are defending a game that gives these chavs their ideas. You cant piss and moans like a bitch about people bullying then say buts its ok for them to make a game about it.

lol? can you please prove this unpublished game is giving chavs the ideas of beating people up? you know, just post a few links to some sites will do. the fact you think that games are the only way that a kid will get a bad idea into their head is laughable to me but its your oppinion.
you see, i quite happily come along and give you a sensible reply. instead of you taking time to reply to the points i made, you just insult me instead. if thats your style then good for you.

if its so easy to say that games make kids kill people, then i can just aswell say that need for speed underground will cause kids to street race. if you dispute this then your contradicting the exact point you are trying to make. you have to also agree it is sadistic to fight another human in MK for the reason that you know you will win.
we both know that just because its about violence it is being blown out of proportion.

there is no proof to say games make people do anything. regardless what the theme maybe about.

"If you enjoy pretending to kill someone in a virtual capacity does this mean that you are satisfying a base need in your psyche that has the potential to explode out of control given the unpredictability of a violent act?"

same can be said about enjoying watching people dieing in films then in that case.
you said your self a violent act is not predictable, so how can you say its only the withdrawl from a game will cause you be violent?!

 

[]AC[dRuM]

Interesting articles abound all over the web, here are two more credible views from both sides of the fence.

VIOLENT VIDEO GAMES CAN INCREASE AGGRESSION
The American Psychological Association
http://www.apa.org/releases/videogames.html

Interesting Quotes

"Violent video games provide a forum for learning and practicing aggressive solutions to conflict situations," said Dr. Anderson. "In the short run, playing a violent video game appears to affect aggression by priming aggressive thoughts. Longer-term effects are likely to be longer lasting as well, as the player learns and practices new aggression-related scripts that can become more and more accessible for use when real-life conflict situations arise."

The Truth About Violent Youth and Video Games
Well researched piece by Game Evolution
http://gr.bolt.com/articles/violence/violence.htm

In an analysis of the risk factors of youth violence by the Surgeon General of the United States of America, violent media is categorized as “Small Effect Size.” In fact, there are 27 risk factors rated higher than exposure to violent media, like socioeconomic status, academic failure, poor parent-child relations, weak social ties, and being male.

I do agree strongly that there is a tendancy for adults to blame youth culture for things that are influenced by adults themselves, bad parenting etc.

I do not claim to be the right type of person to judge as I have a history of playing violent games, if your going to be honest and up front about this you still have to ask is even pretending to kill a good thing considering the level of interaction a game provides? Do gaming companies have a responsibility to promote positive role models instead of negative ones?

The gaming industry is worth millions and I doubt very much they would be that keen to admit there is any link between violent tendencies in young males after playing violent video games. It's kind of like asking the oil companies if they feel extracting oil from the ground destroys the environment surrounding it.

That aside, the article witten by Game Evolution is very well researched.

 

[Skyler]

Have to say I was not bothered by any GTA and even that Manhunt (think it was that) wasn't really a big deal for me. Although Manhunt was too extreme for my tastes and it was a crap game anyway the fact it was around on the market didn't really bother me.

But this game seem's to stir up different ideas in my mind and I can't help but think it would be a bad idea. I agree with the people who say that murdering people, stealing cars and all that is usually an extreme thing with a great risk attached to it meaning that most GTA players or whatever wont start doing stupid stuff like that. But the majority of bullies get away with everything they do and it's something which is extremely easy to do. It can harm people mentally for life and it has virtually no punishment. Of course those that play this game may end up dabbling in such a thing after being "encouraged" (if that's how the game works) to bully other people. Bullying is also a habit that many children develop over the course of growing up and many probably don't even realise that they do it. For this reason as well I think the game may be a bad idea.

For those who think the 18 certificate means anything, it's just not true on Games. Yes, parents are retarded and more and more teenagers know how to use crappy bittorrent sites to get the games they want anyway. Not to mention all the pirate games and films for sale nowadays. GTA is probably the favourite game of most high school kids in the country.

I do think that Rockstar are just doing extreme games to get publicity and sales based on that.

I also wonder how many of you might change your tune when their next game title is Rape. Will it still be "oh but I don't go and rape people after playing it" or will you think it's sick. I know it is a matter of perspective but for many Bullying can be as soul destroying as being sexually assaulted.

Of course details for this game are pretty much non existant so it may turn out to take on a different gameplay style than what we guess. So we will see... but I don't think I'll go anywhere near it.

 

[Dommers]

Making a big commotion about it would make kids want to buy it. I remember at school our headmaster talked about Manhunt in assembly. By the next day almost 1/2 my class were talking about what level they had got up to.

 

[mank!]

sounds like a right fucking laugh to me

 

[]AC[dRuM]

sounds like a right fucking laugh to me

Talking in assembly?

Your way too bad for me Mank.

 

[GDW]

Too many people missing the point in this thread.

School bullying is serious social problem. Always has been and always will be. The key is managing it down to an 'acceptable' level. There are too many psychologically fucked up kids and adults in this world who were victims of school bullying. I'd hazard a guess that there are quite a few of you reading this post who were bullied in school (and maybe thats why you might be attracted to such a game).

What we dont want is some shitty game that promotes crap like this and people getting rich on fuelling peoples addictions. Its no different from drug dealing or pimping.

For those of you that are trying to defend it by arguing that it has an 18 certificate please stop. How fucking naive are you? There will be thousands of kids who download it illegally. There will be tens of thousands of parents that dont give a fuck, and there will be hundreds of thousands that are ignorant of the games content.

For those of you comparing it to violent games already released, please stop. Two wrongs dont make a right.

For those of you who think it will be a laugh, well, your just a kid then arent you?

 

[tris-]

if killing other pixels in a video game is never a good thing then (just an example) bomberman for the Ds should be banned.

me and my friend were playing it in a bar today, and we had to shout "bomb" to plant bombs. the aim is to blow the fuck out of your enemy (my friend).
this must then mean i will turn into a bomb maniac planting bombs trying to kill people.
the fact i could talk to my DS to make it do stuff is a lot more of interaction then just pressing buttons.

now, will you say im talking shit? im going by what you said, which was "is even pretending to kill a good thing considering the level of interaction a game provides?"

i was pretending to kill my friend by placing a bomb up his ass.

 

[Meatballs]

Yet here you are defending a game that gives these chavs their ideas. You cant piss and moans like a bitch about people bullying then say buts its ok for them to make a game about it.

BS, chavs are already beating up people - game's not even out, and I doubt they need to learn it from media (hit people - they hurt. a concept that is pretty easy to pick up during childhood). Whats much harder to learn is how to be properly phsycologically vindictive to someone as well, which probably isn't something you'd pick up from a game, but a more emotional involving film I would think. There will always be bullying in schools (hell theres bullying to an extent in the animal kingdom). Instead of complaining about this game, go complain about bad parenting somewhere, which is a cause of huge amounts of bullying, and petition the government for more parent responsibility AND support so parents actually know how to bring up their kids.

If the game actually portrays the other side to bullying in a well thought out/moving way, then it could actually help some children realise what they are doing (although I doubt it'd be in the game as to do that the game probably wouldn't be as good to play). It may even reduce bullying to an extent because bullys play it and then get bored of doing the same thing at school.

Fact is, no-one here any idea the effect it will have, hell, teachers are being raped nowadays so I doubt it takes a computer game/film/whatever to make people do these things. No-one can prove that a computer game makes more people do these things (if any) than it might help prevent people act these things out irl, so by arguining against this game you could actually be arguing to stop a game that actually decreases bullying overall.

TBH, I don't give a sod either way, theres too much grief in the world anyway to care about what happens to every other person in the world all the time. Call me a heartless bastard if you will

I play games because I am very competitive I love sports, playing Football, Golf, Tennis, Badminton and pretty much anything else where it requires more than one person to take part to make it more enjoyable.

I enjoy interacting with other people through games like CS:S & BF2 it gives me a virtual outlet kind of like paintballing which I love and while it does not fully create the running around screaming commands and making game plans it is a nice substitute.

I believe competitive sports etc, esp paintballing and similar, to be are our culturally developed ways of playing out our violent psyche without actually hurting people, computer games are another...

I enjoy non-competitive sports such as swimming, climbing and kayaking


WHO'S THE DADDY?

 

[GDW]

The thing is there is no definitive guide to parenting and there never will be.

Parents will usually try to bring up their kids the best they can. There is an element who dont give a fuck and thats a very sad fact of life.

So whilst I agree that much of the blame (of how kids behave) lies with parents, it shouldnt give game publishers the right to produce games that focus on human suffering and really there comes a time when a line in the sand has to be drawn.

Like someone said earlier whats the next theme for Rockstar ,... rape? Or how about a game about starvation in third world countries, or ethnic cleansing?

 

[nath]

there comes a time when a line in the sand has to be drawn.

Like someone said earlier whats the next theme for Rockstar ,... rape? Or how about a game about starvation in third world countries, or ethnic cleansing?

On the one hand I disagree with this - I don't believe in censorship in this respect. It's a work of fiction and as such should be allowed to be made.

However, with respect to the whole rape thing - I also agree with that to a certain extent - where does it stop? Assuming this game will be as unpleasant as it sounds I think the only things that stop it being made should be a) Rockstars feeling of moral responsibility not to put something out like this or b) the public deciding not to get it because it's just not on.

Both options are clearly bullshit - never going to happen. Despite that, I still feel it should be a choice whether it gets made or not, not a law. </ramble>

 

[]AC[dRuM]

It's a fact nice young men love to pretend to be a bad ass mofo, this gives them a glimpse into a world that they would otherwise be shit scared to even venture into. This is all well and good as long as it doesn't replace real life, this is something a good few suffer from. They let their alter egos online get a bit carried away because they feel they have the respect that they otherwise lack in their real lives.

An element of laddish behavior is quite acceptable in an all male environment especially when dealing with teenagers. Thing is if these guys are over 21 and still trying to convince the world they are a bad ass mofo then it becomes a bit retarded. After spending years reading peoples drivel you get a good picture of just how sad some bullies are. Believe me they never bullied anyone in their lives and the closest they have ever come to a punch up is when their best mate beat them six times in a row at Tetris.

Pretending to be a bad ass in a game is ok as long as it doesn't spill over into reality, unfortunately for some pretending to be a bad ass is a full time occupation. A virtual life were you are a bad ass mofo who doesn't give a shit is so tempting to slip into rather than face up to the reality of being ordinary.

All relevant to bullying. The biggest bullies have normally been bullied themselves. This virtual bullying particularly appeals to the worst of the weak and socially inadequate as they do not have to look their opponent in the face.

BAD? fuc*ing SAD

 

[tris-]

i pretend to be a bad ass mofo all the time, but im not beating people up. im also non agressive, kind, curtious (sp?) and all the other things youd link with a stereotypical gentleman.

ive been playing violent games and watching violent films for 10 yrs (or since i was 9yrs old). i have yet to beat someone up or try to kill them. in fact, ive never been in one fight in my entire life.

edit: sorry i didnt explain what i was trying to get at.
all this research doesnt prove a thing. unless they surveyed a 100 million game players or so then how do we not know that the people questioned already are not just predisposed to violent thoughts etc?
it could be that its mainly violently pre-disposed people that buy games?

 

[GDW]

i pretend to be a bad ass mofo all the time, but im not beating people up

So you are you saying you are a psychological bully then. Thats how you come across to me

 

[Deadmanwalking]

So you are you saying you are a psychological bully then. Thats how you come across to me

All mouth no balls?

Or is it all balls in mouth?

One of the two.

 

[weevil]

tbh it sounds like a big PR stunt, i don't think even Rockstar would dev such a game because it is aimed at the suffering of their own demographic, whatever age stamp they put on it.

 

[tris-]

So you are you saying you are a psychological bully then. Thats how you come across to me

i come across as a bully?
im not but if youd like to quote some things i said which show i am then that would be great. i could just as easily say the same thing about you.

btw of course i dont walk around thinking im the guy off postal or duke nukem. jesus, maybe you should read the rest of the post?! yes, that would help a lot.

 

[Meatballs]

Rape is a lesser sin than murder, murder deprives a person of all their senses for ever, rape is sex with someone you don't want to have it with (can be violent and scary too, but thats what it boils down to)... And we can murder people in games... So whats this progressing into rape bullshit?

You guys are all so desensitized to death/murder/war that you kick up a fuss about far lesser things...

 

[Louster]

Like someone said earlier whats the next theme for Rockstar ,... rape? Or how about a game about starvation in third world countries, or ethnic cleansing?

Games based on paper-thin premises aren't going to succeed as games - games built around a morally repugnant concept and little else will suck. For this reason, I honestly wouldn't care if games were made in which rape or ethnic cleansing or whatever played a part. Either they'd be crappy novelty shock-tactic attempts at exploiting a taboo, or... I don't know. I can't envisage a way of working those ideas into a game without making it shit. Equally so for 'Bully'.
Also, GDW, some of the things you're saying are completely crazy. Has noone else picked up on this?

What we dont want is some shitty game that promotes crap like this and people getting rich on fuelling peoples addictions. Its no different from drug dealing or pimping.

Right. A computer game no different from drug dealing or pimping. Computer games sure are the new evil. You wouldn't happen to be a crazy american christian fundamentalist by any chance?
As it happens, I was bullied at secondary school, and I seriously don't care about this game potentially being released. Generations have been and are being screwed up by idiotic parenting and other stuff like retarded media-created "role models" anyhow, and I really doubt that this single game will spell the end of the world as we know it. And I also really doubt that it'll have any measurable impact on bullying in schools. Once we get to the point where computer games are virtually indistinguishable from reality, you might have a point. We're not quite there yet.

Obviously I don't have any specific evidence to back up anything I've written, but then neither does anyone else, for the most part. Also:

I do not claim to be the right type of person to judge as I have a history of playing violent games, if your going to be honest and up front about this you still have to ask is even pretending to kill a good thing considering the level of interaction a game provides?

The level of interaction - you mean, utterly minimal? It's like saying that a PS2 controller is an adequate means of training someone to use a gun. And as I pretty much said before, I don't even think you can say that it really is "pretending to kill": it's "playing a computer game". It's a competitive sport (okay, not a sport, but that's the closest word I can think of) based on motor reflexes, reasoning skills, etcetera.
So what about laser tag? I mean, you have to point a gun at people and shoot them and run around and everything! If games are bad for you psychologically, then clearly sports in general are as well.

PS: the fact that this thread even sparked this much interest and argument is probably exactly what Rockstar are going for.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Everyone forgetting the other side of this?

How about the kid who gets bullied daily at school? Don't you think this game would be a totally perfect outlet for all the anger and fustration he or she has inside? I believe that this game could fit perfectly for all the bullied kids i school, just so they can, even in a virtual world, give back and let it out.

It's better they vent it into a game then to lash out at a postal office 20 years later.

IT's not games that make people bully eachother, it's been around since the stoneages when a bigger caveman took the smaller cavemans firestick and f*cked his cavewife.

If someone wants to bully people, they will, games don't put those ideas in their heads. Bullies are allready in schools from the age of 6, and i doubt any kid that young will be let anywhere near this game.

Good idea, never done before, more power to these games. Movies have threaded this road, why shouldn't the bigger entertainment industry do the same? 'cause it's just that...entertainment. All you flowergrannies can go burn a max payne box for all i care. If someone is a bully/murderer, they got a few screws loose, not own a "bad game".

 

[Sharma]

My 2 pence:

As someone who has gone through most of primary school and a majority of secondary school being bullied I think this is an absolutely disgusting title.

Regardless of whether it has an 18 cert, moronic parents will no doubt buy this for their children who will play this and get the impression that bullying is cool.

I'm not sure if anyone else here has suffered from it but it is absolutely terrible, the vocal abuse isnt so bad when youve been put through it for years on end but when youre being punched, shoved and physically abused by a bunch of students in your class repeatedly for years it does start to take its toll, especially if you report it and nothing is done which was the case with me for my first 3 years of secondary school.

This is absolutely disgusting, yes there maybe be worse things but the amount of mental torture you experience when you are being bullied and youre scared to death of saying anything about it.

It seems minor but most people dont even know what its like from the victims point of view, the bullies get some sort of sick enjoyment out of it and are HARDLY EVER pulled up about it, at least that was the case with the schools I went to.

Just remember that if youre saying "Ah, I dont care if its released it wont affect me", what if your child was being abused at school because of students playing this game? then you'd think twice about it when they start becoming depressed and withdrawn because nobody is doing a fucking thing about it.

<rant off>

 

[tris-]

also, btw, i was bullied from the age of 5 yrs old up untill 16. i still do not see what is wrong with this, its a game.

not life,
a game.