BodyGuard's Effects on Fotm tank grps

[Iceflower]

>And no Zerging is not a tactic

Yes it is but not very sophisticated though

Like the adverb goes, if you cant solve the problem with overwhelming numbers, add even more soldiers to the charge

 

[stighelmer]

Bodyguard ml aint really about slamming as I read it...seems to me more that you are gonna be primarily wanting to block and take the hits. None better than a 50 shield armsman for that.

I truly do wish I could agree with you on this because it would atleast give my original character something to do in this age of ToA, but alas...

A 50 shield pala with infinite slam and all the other goodies he/she has coupled with bodyguard will be the greatest guard bot in the game. Armsmen will not stand a chance. Everything a armsman can do in terms of guarding a paladin can do better. And the paladin can do even more...

Apply the same reasoning to tank groups and Mercenaries/Armsmen (with ToA the arguments for a Merc instead of an Armsman is even stronger).

You end up with Armsmen being relics (!) played for sentimental value or by those who do not really care about making the optimal group setup. Optimal in terms of characters - I know the player behind the char is important... but I'll be making a Merc

I wish it wasn't so ...

 

[Bracken]

I truly do wish I could agree with you on this because it would atleast give my original character something to do in this age of ToA, but alas...

A 50 shield pala with infinite slam and all the other goodies he/she has coupled with bodyguard will be the greatest guard bot in the game. Armsmen will not stand a chance. Everything a armsman can do in terms of guarding a paladin can do better. And the paladin can do even more...

Apply the same reasoning to tank groups and Mercenaries/Armsmen (with ToA the arguments for a Merc instead of an Armsman is even stronger).

You end up with Armsmen being relics (!) played for sentimental value or by those who do not really care about making the optimal group setup. Optimal in terms of characters - I know the player behind the char is important... but I'll be making a Merc

I wish it wasn't so ...

Guess we aint gonna agree on this (except maybe about armsmen being played for sentimental value in this fotm world) For a pure guardbot in a caster group a 50 s/s armsmen will provide better protection than a pally. A 50 shield arms blocks more and has SoB. Potions can be used for any endurance issues - there is plenty of opportunity to drop out of combat and quaff one as a guard. The only reason pallys took over as guards was when it became dark age of tankalot and endurance became such an issue for the tank trains. Prior to that s/s armsmen were considered the best guards. So for caster groups I think it will soon be the case that s/s armsmen will be back in fashion. But like I said, doubt I'll be respeccing - sentimentally attached to my 2H arms now and loving the style changes....

 

[Qaewin]

If grps are running with 2 bodyguards, surely the optimal choice would be 1 pala one s/s arms. that way u get end, fh and sb.

The extra dex that arms have mean that they seem to block and parry a lot more... as a bodyguarder parry comes into play and an arms can spec higher in this while keeping 50 shield. My arms blocked a lot more than my pally does when he was s/s specced and i'm sure its not my imagination.

I read a thread a while back where hatigi (something like that) was comparing his block rate to chuffys and said it seemed a fair bit lower.

Arms get 3 slams before ooe, 6 with an end pot, after the slams are used every1 in the assist train should be stun immune presumming there will still be assist trains (with luck but higher dex and possibly ws means arms are more likely to hit than pallys) so the inclusion of a pally is helpfull for unbodyguarded healers to run from stealther adds and longer fights.

If there was only one bodygard spot in grp it would be a tight call between an arms and pally, i beleive an arms is in with a good shout however.
Oh, and i'm not gonna mention heal chant because it won't help.

 

[stighelmer]

keep it coming please

I guess a Arms specced 50 shield, 42 parry, 39 weapon with bodyguard, MoBlock, MoParry, SoB, IP etc would be pretty good at keeping a caster alive... But the extra dex, ws and parry for an Arms... Is it really enough to compensate for the extra utility a Pally has? I am still not convinced :/

 

[Flimgoblin]

aoe smite for the win

 

[Belomar]

hatigi (something like that)

Hatjitjai. (I'm proud because I learnt spelling that name properly a while back.)

 

[Qaewin]

Gotta weigh up the plus points of both and how they compare,

Arms have extra parry, ws (seen ppl dispute this helps with slam on hib forums) and dex, they also have sb.

Pallys have end, rezz, resist chants, dmg add, heal chant and fh.

The role of the bodyguard is to be a dufficult to kill as possible, and will be the first to go down (providing he does what his meant to).

Therefore rezz is inconsequencial, heal chant is a drop in the ocean as is dmg add (I doubt pallys would twist btw as they don't now) fh (which is nice but not nearly as good as ip for single target heal and assuming the bodyguards gets aggroed first this is what it will be for) and end which is always nice for sprinting away from aggro but will only be necessary when there are two or more assist trains or there assist train is broken.

There resist chants will however be very useful against other hybred tank/caster grps.

Therefore I do not see the extra utility pallys have other than resist chants.
It would therefore seem that pallys>arms when bodyguarding against nukers and vice versa against melle grps.

Providing bodyaguard works as i beleive it does (bodyguard must be dead b4 bodyguardee can be harmed regardless be it by mellee or nuked atack. I have been told that bodyguard only works against mellee attacks so not 100% sure).

Oh and thanks belo, thats the one

 

[Mastade]

Dont fear bodyguard, fear a regrowth warden spamming Essence Flames and Power Leak ~~

 

[stighelmer]

+ for Arms:
Higher Dex
Higher Parry
SoB
WS (will not matter in terms of defending since it does not affect chance to land slam)

+ for Pally
Higher Con
Resist Chants
Infinte supply of End and hence slam (although mitigated somewhat by the fact that Arms can use pots, but still oh so sweet)
FH
Rezz (not much help while guarding but still really good to have)

well well. anything I missed ?

 

[Flimgoblin]

do armsmen not have slightly higher hp? or is that offset by the increased con of a paladin?

 

[stighelmer]

do armsmen not have slightly higher hp? or is that offset by the increased con of a paladin?

Unsure tbh. I know for sure that Pallys have higher Con though...

 

[Qaewin]

Pallys have higher con. My arms has higher hp but hes in sc'd suit, think they're hp would be roughly the same otherwise though. Either way not much in it.

 

[Alithiel]

do armsmen not have slightly higher hp? or is that offset by the increased con of a paladin?

A fully buffed Armsman can have 2400+ hp's, while a Paladin will usually not get much beyond 2000 hp's.

 

[Wildfire]

Never played against the realm they call "Hibernia" then I guess sorusi... der der.

 

[liloe]

Never played against the realm they call "Hibernia" then I guess sorusi... der der.

I think Sorusi >> you big time but ok

PBAE is not only used as defensive weapon, you can aswell storm in and pb the hell out of your enemies after mezz (ofc co-ordinated) cause THIS will give enemy healers a tough time and you a nice opening. Watch the DH video and see offensive alb pb'ing

can play both, although defensive is used more often it seems.

 

[Bracken]

well well. anything I missed ?

Just the fact that armsmen do seem to block more...dunno whether that's down to higher dex or what as in theory there should be no difference between a 50 shield armsman and 50 shield pally (ws does not in itself effect chance to block).

Oh and the significantly higher hp of armsman is a big factor for the bodyguard survivability. If the armsman has an average of say 400 more hp, with heals and IP factored in that's a lot more damage they can take. Ofc that is offset if the pally has FH on top though...

 

[Chronictank]

Quick question, Can bodyguarded target be switched instanataneously like guard can?
If it can then 2 bodyguarders can guard a whole grp.

 

[Alithiel]

Oh and the significantly higher hp of armsman is a big factor for the bodyguard survivability. If the armsman has an average of say 400 more hp, with heals and IP factored in that's a lot more damage they can take. Ofc that is offset if the pally has FH on top though...

Paladins can also twist their heal chant, generally have higher AF so they take less melee damage, and have resist chants to reduce the amount of damage they take from spells...

As I see it, the Paladin has other abilities that more than offset the difference in hp's.

 

[Hercules-DF]

I pity the fool that tries to play defensive against any caster group with a debuffer. PBAE is only used defensively you know.

hehe CLUBBER LANG 4 teh win

 

[Vindicator]

+ for Arms:
WS (will not matter in terms of defending since it does not affect chance to land slam)

Yes it Does. Your Chance to land slam is modified by your primary weapon spec. I would think being able to land slams is an important role for a Defending tank.

Anyway Stigh, you should never really have to put an arms and pala face to face, stat for stat, spec for spec just to see who would be best in a grp. The answer was already stated earlier, If you have both of them in grp that is the best solution as you gain max benefit.

PBAE is not only used as defensive weapon, you can aswell storm in and pb the hell out of your enemies after mezz (ofc co-ordinated) cause THIS will give enemy healers a tough time and you a nice opening. Watch the DH video and see offensive alb pb'ing

Yes good example, Show the RR10 hib pbae grp pbae'ing like 20 rr2-4albs. The point Wildfire was trying to make which seems to have gone over your head is that you cant use pbae offensively against a decent opposition without putting your self into a insta interupt position, shammy insta farting while whole grp run out of box for example. You use the pbae box to defend primarly, Ofc it can be used to kill also but only against .... how shall we say, less challenging individuals ^^.

 

[stighelmer]

I would think being able to land slams is an important role for a Defending tank.

Yep, can't argue with you on that one.

Your Chance to land slam is modified by your primary weapon spec.

Nope, I don't think it is. Some under the surface WS calculated from dex and shield spec determines that I think. Atleast that's what some investigation showed - can't remember where I read it though :/

It might have changed or those investigations might have been wrong somehow but atm I am rather convinced your weapon spec does not affect your chance to land slam. Would be kewl to see hard evidence either way though.

 

[Asha]

as a pure slam bot in a caster group you forgot one thing
a big thing
determination

however dunno if that makes arms BETTER in that situation, because of end, FH, & rez.

some offensive arms don't seem to want to be block bots tho
it's a bit like asking a smite cleric to respec to rejuv or enhan.

 

[Vindicator]

Nope, I don't think it is. Some under the surface WS calculated from dex and shield spec determines that I think.

Well im not going to argue with you about it because I am also not 100% ^^.

But with this statement here it means arms will land slam more often than pallys as was agreed earlier that arms have higher Dex and usually pallys / arms will have same shield spec. Arms will have 42 or 50 if he is in anyway defensive / Hybrid. So he has higher Dex which means he slams more often so and has higher, for arguements sake, 'shield' WS .

 

[Bracken]

Paladins can also twist their heal chant, generally have higher AF so they take less melee damage, and have resist chants to reduce the amount of damage they take from spells...

As I see it, the Paladin has other abilities that more than offset the difference in hp's.

True. So basically comes down to SoB+better blocking+det v FH+chants+rez+end. In a caster group using bodyguard end aint really a factor as casters need to stand still (so wont use end running) to be bodyguarded (and arms has pots for slam end if needed). Close call and I guess groups will find what works for them.

 

[Bracken]

some offensive arms don't seem to want to be block bots tho
it's a bit like asking a smite cleric to respec to rejuv or enhan.

Nice try

 

[Puppet]

+ for Arms:
Higher Dex
Higher Parry
SoB
WS (will not matter in terms of defending since it does not affect chance to land slam)

+ for Pally
Higher Con
Resist Chants
Infinte supply of End and hence slam (although mitigated somewhat by the fact that Arms can use pots, but still oh so sweet)
FH
Rezz (not much help while guarding but still really good to have)

well well. anything I missed ?

Yep, you missed that an armsman has access to Determination so he's not mezzed while he should be guarding

 

[Qaewin]

Paladins can also twist their heal chant, generally have higher AF so they take less melee damage, and have resist chants to reduce the amount of damage they take from spells...

As I see it, the Paladin has other abilities that more than offset the difference in hp's.

Paladins can also twist their heal chant but more than likely won't. Twisting is for pve and 1v1 fights and is impractical for the pally in rvr.

Has a higher af by 56 (the self buff) shield chant doesn't stack with spec af buff. This is 5% per hit. 3 assisters hitting for 200 dmg each every round for 13 rounds withought one miss and the pally still won't have made up the hp diff.

There resist chants are nice 20% for the highest ones but to get them pallys would need to have 49 in chants, coupled with 50 in shield 29slash leaves them 9 parry. They would also haveto pick the right chant for each spell type..tough when each grp will have more than one.

So an exceptionally well played paladin that twists all chants and picks the right resist chant each time ( would recquire 4 identical qbars bar each resist) and switches bodyguard as well as an arms that doesn't, will more than offset the extra hp.

But probably not the extra parry ( probably about 30 pts) extra dex ( which seems to make a big diff) and the det factor.

FH>SB but arms get IP (as do pallys but its better than nought) and if the bodyguard needs to use 2 instas ur probably in trouble anyway.

I'm obviously biased towards arms but I feel they will make better bodyguards.
One of each would be nice and probably optimal though.

 

[Qaewin]

some offensive arms don't seem to want to be block bots tho
it's a bit like asking a smite cleric to respec to rejuv or enhan.

They can sit there stubbborn arses next to each other at atk then

 

[stighelmer]

Yep, you missed that an armsman has access to Determination so he's not mezzed while he should be guarding

oO wot is Determination ?