Blizzard's view on ebayers

[Fana]

However, this is the tricky part for me, lets say that you agreed with the individual you transferred the lease to, that they could have the various furnishings you had purchased for the apartment but then could not be bothered to move out. While they are in the Landlord's property, they are still your possessions. If you violate the agreement of your lease by giving or selling the apartment to someone else (with your possessions as part of the deal) does that person have any right to them? Or does the Landlord? Or are they still techniqually yours?

Well, it isnt that tricky really A contract doesnt have to be voided in full just because some part of it is deemed to not be applicable, or unlawful. In your example, you have sold an apartment that you didnt own, as well as furniture that you did own. What you would do is void the part of the contract that is unlawful (the part where you are selling property that didnt belong to you).
The part about the furniture would still apply. Problem is then that the property that was lawfully sold is in the possession (legal possession) of the landlord since it is still inside his property (possession and ownership are linked but arent the same) - it varies what the landlord can do with this goods depending on the tradition of law applied to the situation - i believe most would agree that he gets a kind of guardianship of it, and a limited duty of caring for it until it can get removed from his property by the owner (this duty does not extend so far that it gets to become a major inconvenience for him - so he could reasonably (legal reasonability) be expected to keep it in his care until a new tenant is to move into the apartment.
If he moved it out of the apartment after that time noone could likely hold him legaly responsible for what happens to the furniture afterwards (i.e. he could dump it in the street outside). The important thing here is time and reasonability based on that time. The one to hold accountable for all damages (in case the landlord or the person to whom you sold the furniture has a right to compensation) is you - i.e. the one with the culpable (culpa = fault) behaviour.

 

[Sendraks]

Cheers Fana.

Sooo, extrapolating the scenario of the apartment to the WoW Account, and the furnishings in the apartment to being the items and characters on the account. Legally, Blizzard have "guardianship" of your characters and items until such time as you decide to reclaim them (which Blizz may not let you do as you voided the terms of your agreement with them) or they may decide to dipose of any of the items and the characters in the account that you were leasing from them?

While you have legally sold those items to the new account holder, because they are present inside the account that is owned by Blizzard, it is up to Blizzard to decide if they wish to keep the items there or not, as they may wish to clean the account (clean out the apartment) completely before leasing it to a new customer.

Is that more or less correct?

 

[Meduza]

My god I love pocket-lawyers and self-proclaimed philosophers of law

But to put it short and simple: I'm right, and your wrong. Why? Because I say so! No arguments needed...

 

[Sendraks]

My god I love pocket-lawyers and self-proclaimed philosophers of law

I'm neither, I'm just guessing, but basing my guessing on the evidence put in front on me, rather than my opinion of what I think the answer should be.

You, however, seem to be doing the reverse. But I don't mind, its providing me with entertainment at the end of my working week.

 

[Meduza]

While you're right here, as I've purchased 2nd hand goods under guarantee and had the guarantee honoured by the manufacturer, you're working under the assumption that this applies to all purchases.

It doesn't.

Ohh, I just had to comment on that one: It does! (Within reason, ofc - food etc dont have a "2-yr warranty period"!)

Even software... Even Windows XP, how foolish it might sound, does have a 2-yr warranty. If it doesn't work under conditions set by M$ you *can* actually demand them to either a) fix the problem within reasonable time, or b) demand your money back - I'm a bit uncertain about b) tho for how long you can actually demand that - been a while since I studied.

 

[Meduza]

... its providing me with entertainment at the end of my working week.

Yea, me too Thats why I cant stop... SOMEBODYYYY STOPPP MEEEEE

 

[Danya]

Ah the problem is, you don't own the characters - unlike furnature which you go into a shop and buy, you have no legally binding contract to say you own the characters. In fact Blizzard's license agreement specifically says they retain ownership of anything created on the account.

 

[Meduza]

Ah the problem is, you don't own the characters - unlike furnature which you go into a shop and buy, you have no legally binding contract to say you own the characters. In fact Blizzard's license agreement specifically says they retain ownership of anything created on the account.

Do we really have to go down that road again?!

Just because Blizzard says so, doesn't make it right...

 

[Fana]

Cheers Fana.

Sooo, extrapolating the scenario of the apartment to the WoW Account, and the furnishings in the apartment to being the items and characters on the account. Legally, Blizzard have "guardianship" of your characters and items until such time as you decide to reclaim them (which Blizz may not let you do as you voided the terms of your agreement with them) or they may decide to dipose of any of the items and the characters in the account that you were leasing from them?

While you have legally sold those items to the new account holder, because they are present inside the account that is owned by Blizzard, it is up to Blizzard to decide if they wish to keep the items there or not, as they may wish to clean the account (clean out the apartment) completely before leasing it to a new customer.

Is that more or less correct?

Well the analogy doesnt really work when applied to intangible property as its very nature and the nature and conditions for which the term was invented for are different than for tangible property. The use of the apartment examples are simply to get people to think in the right way But, if we are to continoue the analogy then we must first ascertain that the property on the account is yours, which is far from certain.
As we have discussed earlier the status of the data on Blizzards servers is not clear - i.e. is it the exclusive property of Blizzard or is it the property of the license holder? Arguments can be made in favour of both wiews, and it is clear that blizzard considers all data on their servers to be their exclusive property no matter how that data was introduced into the system. They also hold all intellectual property rights to the concepts and idea behind all objects generated in the game, which can only exist inside their game (and if taken out of that enviroment can only be considered a copyright infringement), further strenghtening their claim. Also, you have never had the items in question in your exclusive possession, i.e. you have never had sole discretion over the items (never been in direct and exclusive control of them, which is an important requisite for ownership), but then again it can be argued that neither have Blizzard. The specific data/items would also never have been introduced into their system without your input.
So, Blizzard has possession, and a stronger possession than you, they also have intellectual property rights to the data, and the data can only be introduced in an enviroment that they control exclusively, and only with the help of a lease that they provide. In favour of you is your action to actually introduce the specific item data into the system.

For the sake of argument then, lets say that the data generated by the actions of your account is to be considered your property. Blizzard would have some sort of limited guardianship, but the key, as i mentioned in my previous post would be time, reasonability and how much inconvenience the guardianship would be allowed to cause the guardian. The items/characters can only exist on blizzards servers - thus, continouing the apartment example (which, as i mentioned is at best a bad analogy ) the analogy would be that the furniture could only exist in another of the landlords apartments, which he is not under any obligations to provide.
Blizzard is likewise not obligated to provide any continoued space for the items/characters on their property if they are found to be there illegaly. They would have a guardianship on behalf of the person you sold the items/characters, but there would be no way that the person that bought them could extract them from the server/account and thus relieving blizzard of their guardianship, leaving blizzard with only one option: terminating the data (i.e. the landlord sends the furniture off to the citydump because noone came to claim it). Transfering the data is not a service that blizzard normaly provides, so it would be a inconvenience (legal inconvenience) they could not be expected to suffer.
Again, as in the apartment example, the culpable person would be you (the seller) and if the buyer made it shown that he had suffered economic damages then you would be held accountable.

If the items/characters is to be cosidered the property of blizzard (which is likely) then it gets easier - you have sold what doesnt belong to you, blizzard is free to do whatever they like with the data, and the buyer can claim damages and get economic compensation from you.

So in both cases the end result would be the same, just the argumentation is different So, you are more or less correct.

 

[Meduza]

OMG what a long post.

But I read it

 

[Danya]

Ohh, I just had to comment on that one: It does! (Within reason, ofc - food etc dont have a "2-yr warranty period"!)

Even software... Even Windows XP, how foolish it might sound, does have a 2-yr warranty. If it doesn't work under conditions set by M$ you *can* actually demand them to either a) fix the problem within reasonable time, or b) demand your money back - I'm a bit uncertain about b) tho for how long you can actually demand that - been a while since I studied.

Faulty goods are not the issue here. Not sure on other countries, but under UK law you are guaranteed 1 year's trouble-free operation of things you buy. You are not guaranteed that you can sell on services you buy however.

 

[Jayce]

I've read all the posts in this thread and although all the opinions offered all, well most, are valid and seem to be well thought out its all pointless, because none of this means anything unless someone in Europe takes Blizzard to the European court for one of the examples discussed. That way the real law people would get involved (fangs sharpened !) and can sort it out properly. Until then none of you are right or wrong, really.

 

[Sendraks]

Until then none of you are right or wrong, really.

In the context of a pure debate, which this is, technically the correct person (or the winner) is the one who can put forward the most well reasoned and intellectually defensible argument. Which, on a quick skim through the thread, would appear to be Fana in my opinion.

Do I think people should be able to sell items and accounts?

No. While I am less concerned about people profiting from the sale of such items, I don't believe a person should be able to gain access to such items in the game except through the means which the game provides. A person with a lot of cash in reality, but who can't be arsed to play, should not be able to purchase characters or items that give them advantage over those with less money.

I would like Blizzard to take a strong position on this, so this becomes a thing of the past.

But I sympathise with those players who, having finished with the game, would like to profit from the sale of their items and characters. Its the buyers I have a problem with.

 

[Whisperess]

In favour of you is your action to actually introduce the specific item data into the system.

It's actually Blizzard again (their servers) that introduce the items into the system by spawning it.

These kind of debates make "Bind on Pickup" items truly shine

 

[Meduza]

Why shouldnt ppl be allowed to sell their chars? Honestly, it would be a kick ass deal for teenagers who lives at home to say to their mum and dad "But... But... Im working! It *looks* like Im playing, but in fact im working. See?! $50 for my old account!"

Ohh, not to mention it would also benefit poor asian ppl with internet access (even tho *how can poor asian have internet access?!* ) I would gladly pay some korean dood $1 for 1 gold in WoW. No doubt! Fun is the end game, not the struggle to go there - why else be on a PvP server?! But thats my point of view ofc. Others like the game as a whole, and respect to that

 

[Fana]

It's actually Blizzard again (their servers) that introduce the items into the system by spawning it.

These kind of debates make "Bind on Pickup" items truly shine

Well what i mean is without your actions a specific item (i.e. Sword of Omen nr.12893673) wouldnt get introduced into the server enviroment. As in, it wouldnt have gotten spawned unless you had completed a proscribed set of actions But yes, its the script created by blizzard that enables this to happen.
Note, im not disagreeing with you, as should be evident by my previous posts. Just pointing out that in this case it takes two to tango so to say ^^
And yes, "bind on pickup" is a great system - its too bad not every desirable item can be flaged as such, as it would destroy the ingame economy.

 

[Hestethun]

well, if i were go to onto ebay now and put "selling un/pw for WoW, email for details". blizzard cant do shit, im not selling blizzards property, and anything in their ToS, CoC what ever cannot supercede(sp?) the law.

if i sell you the keys to my house, for £80k, all you own is the key to my property. same thing here - i sell a un and pw to someone, they just own the 'key' to access blizards servers.

also, they cant stop you selling your time for a price. if ive played for 100 hours, then i can say "well, you can buy 100 hours worth of my time". they dont own time now do they?! wouldnt suprise me, soon you wont be allowed to sell the mouse used to operate the game.

and how exactly do blizzard supply me the details? if i remember rightly, which i do, i created the details and gave them to blizzard.

well if u own the key dosent mean u own whats inside it u just own hte key , they can do what ever they want with the inside

 

[Sharma]

As far as I see it, you agree to a set collection of conditions when you create an account, so if you ebay and get banned, it's your own fault and you're an idiot beyond all else if you have a whinge about it, I personally have no sympathy for the guy, whether you want to "sell th time put in" or not, you go to sell the account, and you get banned, YOU were YOUR own undoing and you can't blame anyone else but YOURSELF.

 

[Meduza]

As far as I see it, you agree to a set collection of conditions when you create an account, so if you ebay and get banned, it's your own fault and you're an idiot beyond all else if you have a whinge about it, I personally have no sympathy for the guy, whether you want to "sell th time put in" or not, you go to sell the account, and you get banned, YOU were YOUR own undoing and you can't blame anyone else but YOURSELF.

You simply don't get it , do you?

We are talking about whats right, and what isn't. And Blizzards policy on account-trading is wrong.

 

[Danya]

You simply don't get it , do you?

We are talking about whats right, and what isn't. And Blizzards policy on account-trading is wrong.

You think it's wrong, other disagree. Who is really right? Until it's tried in court, no one can say. I'd say it's you who doesn't get it - you are absolutely convinced you are right and everyone else wrong with no proof or evidence to back up your claims.

 

[Tallen]

Here's an interesting take on the intellectual ownership as regards selling an account.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4596&item=8174693543&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

Gotta love the "I'm selling the time i investeted in the game" argument

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4596&item=8174512467&rd=1

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4596&item=8175117831&rd=1

Either way, ebay is still chocka with these kind of things.

 

[Whisperess]

You simply don't get it , do you?

We are talking about whats right, and what isn't. And Blizzards policy on account-trading is wrong.

Nice way to shift the focus of your statements.

Its not legal for Blizzard to do so.

The rest of us are discussing the legality of it, not what you consider "right" and "wrong".

 

[Sharma]

You simply don't get it , do you?

We are talking about whats right, and what isn't. And Blizzards policy on account-trading is wrong.

I think the problem lies in your own inability to see the fact that when you create an account, with pretty much any MMO company, if you read the terms and conditions they reserve the right to terminate your account on grounds they see fit to do so.

You agree to a contract, you abide by it.

You break that contract, be prepared to deal with the consequences of doing so.

 

[Meduza]

Here's an interesting take on the intellectual ownership as regards selling an account.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4596&item=8174693543&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

Gotta love the "I'm selling the time i investeted in the game" argument

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4596&item=8174512467&rd=1

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4596&item=8175117831&rd=1

Either way, ebay is still chocka with these kind of things.

O M G! £16 for 5 gold?! Nerf those prices!!!

 

[Ctuchik]

O M G! £16 for 5 gold?! Nerf those prices!!!

its still a young economy.. gold is acually valuable atm

just wait half a year and the prices will drop i guess, hehe

(Disclamer: im not saying u buy cash of ebay here)

 

[Ctuchik]

Do we really have to go down that road again?!

Just because Blizzard says so, doesn't make it right...

acually, it does its their property, all they do is taking our cash so we can play *their* game on *their* servers with *their* goodwill. they can decide to burn all the data on every EU server tomorrow if they like, and there would have been nothing we could do about it other then start from scratch again


unless u live in japan offcourse........

remember readin about a japaneese (or chineese, whatever) that sued a MMORPG company coz the dude had been hacked and the company refused to give back his stuff.. guess what? the court decided the hacked guy was right and forced the company to give him back the lot... seriously doubt that would work in any of the other "civilized" countrys (not saying japan or china isnt civilized)...

 

[Meduza]

(Disclamer: im not saying u buy cash of ebay here)

Heh, I would (at lower prices) if I trusted I would actually get the gold

But I dont... And real life cash aint something to joke with, hehehe

 

[clearbrook]

You agree to a contract, you abide by it.

You break that contract, be prepared to deal with the consequences of doing so.

Actually this often is not correct. For example, if in business, you write a contract where there is a penalty clause, then the penalty clause has to be proportionate. If the penalty is too big or too small then the clause is invalid and cannot be enforced even if both parties sign it. So if a software supplier tries to write a "maximum damages = £1" into a million quid contract then as a business you will sign up happily, because you *KNOW* that the clause cannot be enforced!

edit: trying not to sound rude