BBC Chairman resigns

[xane]

"America - bringing you democracy at the end of a bayonet"

You mean there's another way ?

That's right, dictators simply _love_ democracy and can't wait to impose it on their subjects

Name a country that did not evolve into a democracy without a war of some kind, there are very few ?

 

[Munkey]

Qatar!

 

[Will]

India? (this is a guess)

 

[Jonaldo]

Australia

 

[Cdr]

New Zealand?

 

[throdgrain]

Australia still has the queen as its head of state. India wasnt ruled by a dictator strictly speaking, although Im sure someone will argue that it was, and they did have quite a lot of violence going on too.

/edit New Zealand see Australia

 

[xane]

India and Australia were practically democracies before independence, I am talking about countries that existed prior to democracy being introduced.

In any case, as far as the Aborigines are concerned, democracy came on the end of a bayonet too. Both India and Australia were subverted by a democratic country in the same way Iraq is. Even America got its democracy the hard way.

Qatar is not a democracy yet, having elections to a body with no government power does not count (I'd admit they are getting there fast).

Edit: Maoris same position as Aborigines.

 

[Jonaldo]

b) It was only one of the issues regarding the invasion of Iraq, albeit a major one. Even if they did make a mistake and there wernt any WMD, as incidently I personally believe, a dictator has still been overthrown, the people of Iraq will one day control thier own affairs. Even if the government of Iraq does end up as a Muslim state, arguably the last thing the US want, at least it will be thier own Muslim state, rather than a country run by gangsters.

What other reasons were given for the invasion other than the WMD issue?

We practically knew they had none and yet still we attacked, this is the only thing I find off about the war, not the outcome nor the fact that Saddam was removed from power. I've had to say this several times and still people seem to think I'm a supporter of his. I just don't like the methods and complete lack of reasons for attack a country that seemed to be little threat, both before and as was proved both during and after the war.

 

[xane]

I've noticed this thread has deviated somewhat, so I'll shut up now and get some work done and let some good fellow put it back on course, sorry.

 

[Tom]

It also may not make us the most popular people in the middle east and as such create more bad feeling towards us; Which I'm sure you know is not what we need right now.

Like we should care? Who would be most upset? Only those people who aren't at the moment allowed the education that we take for granted.

Regarding the ME cutting off our oil supplies, that would never happen, you don't stop eating food altogether just to spite McDonalds.

As Xane says, none of you have yet proposed anything like a viable alternative policy regarding the prosecution of the war in Iraq. You all whinge on about the UN weapons inspectors being allowed more time, well, if the 12 years between the 2 wars isn't enough time, I don't know what is.

Also, by 'allowing them more time', aren't you indirectly condoning the deaths of Iraqi citizens from UN embargos? Yay for the UN.

 

[Jonaldo]

India and Australia were practically democracies before independence, I am talking about countries that existed prior to democracy being introduced.

In any case, as far as the Aborigines are concerned, democracy came on the end of a bayonet too. Both India and Australia were subverted by a democratic country in the same way Iraq is. Even America got its democracy the hard way.

Qatar is not a democracy yet, having elections to a body with no government power does not count (I'd admit they are getting there fast).

Edit: Maoris same position as Aborigines.

Goalposts..
Moved..

If you ask a question for arguments sake, at least don't change it after several correct answers were given.

 

[Tom]

Read what Xane said:

Name a country that did not evolve into a democracy without a war of some kind, there are very few ?

Which is very different from actually founding a country.

 

[xane]

* kicks thread back on track

latest news

 

[sibanac]

You mean there's another way ?

That's right, dictators simply _love_ democracy and can't wait to impose it on their subjects

Name a country that did not evolve into a democracy without a war of some kind, there are very few ?

there is a diffrence between a revolution and an outside force imposing democracy.

 

[GekuL]

Because as a resident, dictatorship is preferable I suppose?

 

[GekuL]

And on topic: Andrew Gilligan resigns.

 

[Jonaldo]

"Lord Hutton does seem to suggest that it is not enough for a broadcaster or a newspaper... to simply report what a whistleblower says because they are an authoritative source. You have to demonstrate that it is true. That would change the law in this country"

That's The Sun fucked then, I'll have to find a new sports section to find I guess

 

[Delboy]

This 45 minute claim is going to carry on and on...........

As someone else said, the government believed at the time it had enough information to take the course of action it did. But what evidence do you need to make that 45 minute claim? ICBM silo's on Iraqi borders?

It would have to be blatant evidence that we wont be privvy to for 50+ years (maybe)

 

[Delboy]

The answer is, they can't. It all starts with the accountants. Cost cutting might help balance the books and make an organisation appear more cost-effective, but in the end it will only serve to help the demise of tv in this country.

Yep, cost of everything value of nothing.

I was speaking to one of my colleagues who'd had been with the BBC for close on 25 years, and he said Birt ruined the BBC.

It started off as being "One BBC" which had so much internal resources in terms of equipment and technical expertise which didnt show and audit trail of expenses, yet produced lots of good programming. It became deeply fragmented Corporation that produced good programmes sometimes, but with a complete audit trail which you can see with a press of a few buttons.

There used to be a team based in London who would go around the country building studios at Beeb sites. The standard of work was so precise that programme makers could move from site to site and have no difficulty using the studio cos they were all the same. Now it's a kludge of different contractors and suppliers which really screws things up during the lifetime of a studio.

The Beeb used to have "stores" which brought in lots of kit for departments at cheaper prices, but now they're all gone.

So now the BBC has traceability, but at what cost?

 

[Tom]

Birt is an utter wanker. BBC Resources was set up as the outside broadcast arm of the BBC, and was basically all the outside broadcast facilities needed for a job. So for a footy match, you would have a big truck full of cameras, lenses, support, cables, sound gear, etc. Then you would have another big truck or two that housed all the vision mixing, sound mixing, power, engineering, etc.

This stuff was all owned by the BBC, yet when a contract came up for work, BBC Resources would have to bid for it - even though the contract was a BBC internal job. You can guess what happened - another OB company would bid a lower price, and get the work. The BBC equipment, bought and paid for to work on BBC jobs, would sit and get dusty. Result - BBC loses money.

Thats called 'The Internal Market', and it was just one of Birt's brainwaves.

 

[Stazbumpa]

Hi gang, been arguing nicely while I was away?

This made me smile

there is a diffrence between a revolution and an outside force imposing democracy.

Indeed there is. But look at the context; Iraq was not exactly the most forward thinking of nations, and neither are many others. An outside force imposing democracy seems an altogether better thing than waiting for the civilian population to not be shit scared of their own government for long enough for the "revolution" to take place.

And does imposing democracy, free will, the right to choose and not be beaten shitless and/or shot for your views sound bad anyway?

A lot of Islamic countries are in the dark ages thanks to the suppression by the governments involved and this is the 21st century for fucks sake. This should not be going on.
Inaction/uninvolvement is one reason why it continues.

 

[dysfunction]

Hi gang, been arguing nicely while I was away?

You've been away?

 

[sibanac]

Hi gang, been arguing nicely while I was away?

This made me smile



Indeed there is. But look at the context; Iraq was not exactly the most forward thinking of nations, and neither are many others. An outside force imposing democracy seems an altogether better thing than waiting for the civilian population to not be shit scared of their own government for long enough for the "revolution" to take place.

And does imposing democracy, free will, the right to choose and not be beaten shitless and/or shot for your views sound bad anyway?

A lot of Islamic countries are in the dark ages thanks to the suppression by the governments involved and this is the 21st century for fucks sake. This should not be going on.
Inaction/uninvolvement is one reason why it continues.

Another thing that bothers me is people keep thinking ellections = democracy
For democracy to work you need a free press, independant military and police, a working independant justice system, eductaion for the people and much more

At the moment if there where ellections in Iraq Ayatollah al-Sistani would probably win, do you think a conservative shiite cleric would build an open democracy ?

You cant create a democracy, you have to grow it. Like whats happening in Maroco at the moment, There was a parlemaint for a long time, but it didnt have any real power, now slowly the Monarchy is giving parlaiment more and more power.

 

[Stazbumpa]

Another thing that bothers me is people keep thinking ellections = democracy
For democracy to work you need a free press, independant military and police, a working independant justice system, eductaion for the people and much more

At the moment if there where ellections in Iraq Ayatollah al-Sistani would probably win, do you think a conservative shiite cleric would build an open democracy ?

You cant create a democracy, you have to grow it. Like whats happening in Maroco at the moment, There was a parlemaint for a long time, but it didnt have any real power, now slowly the Monarchy is giving parlaiment more and more power.

Very true, but do you not agree that in the case of the Monarchy vs Parliament, this country did have a certain amount of religious zeal/intolerance, but that this was back in the dark ages and we have progressed. What I am saying is that many middle eastern countries have this NOW, today, and the flow towards democracy that we experienced several hundred years ago isn't likely to ever happen, therefore unless someone shoves them in the right direction it WON'T ever happen.

 

[sibanac]

Very true, but do you not agree that in the case of the Monarchy vs Parliament, this country did have a certain amount of religious zeal/intolerance, but that this was back in the dark ages and we have progressed. What I am saying is that many middle eastern countries have this NOW, today, and the flow towards democracy that we experienced several hundred years ago isn't likely to ever happen, therefore unless someone shoves them in the right direction it WON'T ever happen.

true democracy as we know it is fairly new, womens vote only came into existance around 1920.
If you look at the old eastblock, all those countrys became democracys, but in reality most are still some form of dictatorship.
So i dont believe you can invade a country and install a democratic goverment or that it is our job to do so

 

[dysfunction]

Chinese Proverb:

If you want to cultivate a tree it takes 10 years. If you want to cultivate people it takes 100 years.

I think thats quite true....

 

[SheepCow]

Dulux have made a lot of dosh in white paint recently ...

 

[Doh_boy]

Anyone watch Bremner, Bird & Fortune? Top stuff.

 

[bigbb]

Anyone watch Bremner, Bird & Fortune? Top stuff.

Indeed. Much better than the last series, which turned into Bremner's ranting with a blatent disregard for the facts.