Barrysworld Threads Revealing Raids

[Addlcove]

in my opinion, posting here while the raid is on equals logging into IRC and announcing it in #daoc.prydwen

but I guess whoever posted the original thread thought it would be ok to alert the hibs too while he where at it.

I mean come one, NOONE wants their relic raid announced on IRC yes it does happen, usually because of some imature fool thinks it's a good idea.

 

[Damini]

Originally posted by Vell


IMO, unless you also close down all the IRC channels that people communicate on (which obviously you can't) banning threads of the like here it pointless, people will just go elsewhere. Are we saying that people shouldn't use these forums to communicate? That defeats the whole point of having forums!

This is why we are discussing it here. We want to reach a decision thats best for the community at large. I'm not responsible for the IRC channels, I am however responsible for what goes on here. It is not a black and white decision, lots of people have said they are pleased the thread got deleted, while others are obviously annoyed, so there's obviously room for discussion.

On the CoC front, there are no specific lines that can be quoted in reference to this situation, but as I understand it playing a character purely to get infomation about raids by a realm is frowned upon. This is because it gives the enemy unfair notice by warning and alerting them to raids either happening or about to happen. Surely then a thread here can be seen to do the same thing? This is what we are discussing. We want a forum that best compliments the game, that does not compromise the enjoyment of the game for people.

A forum is for communication, but there is a world of difference between posts advertising someone's armour and weapons, which do not directly affect realm points and weeks of planning, and between telling someone to arm the battlements. There is a difference between someone organising an internal outting to slay a dragon, and requesting support and numbers, to someone posting the time and movements of an incoming raid. It is these differences we are discussing.

I don't play DAoC anymore. I have no bias whether the middies, the hibbies or the albs are wearing the shiny pants of victory at any given time. All I'm interested in is creating a forum that works well, in keeping with a very active community.

With regards to Brevis, if people report posts, we will try to deal with them. If we find them, we will try to deal with them. This everything or nothing ideal simply doesn't work in reality, "everything" is too time consuming to be plausible and "nothing" only works in very small communities without conflicting interests and ideals.

 

[Brevis]

Damini, I can only agree to that.

But if/when an ongoing event gets posted here, in 99,99% of the cases its all over /gu /as /br etc etc already so posting it will do no harm in my opinion.

 

[Vell]

Originally posted by Damini


On the CoC front, there are no specific lines that can be quoted in reference to this situation, but as I understand it playing a character purely to get infomation about raids by a realm is frowned upon. This is because it gives the enemy unfair notice by warning and alerting them to raids either happening or about to happen. Surely then a thread here can be seen to do the same thing?

No, because the thread here didn't give advance warning to anyone. The raid force was spotted by a Mid once the raid was already underway, he alerted the alliances, and the big guilds, and everyone in game at that time knew about it. The thread here didn't change any of that, all it did was alert a few people who weren't in game, but browsing the forums instead. It's a completely different situation from creating a character on another realm for the intention of gathering information and relaying it back to your own realm.

 

[Vengeful]

IMO you shouldn't delete relic raid threads, because its not spying. I mean ofcourse the people who are raiding want to keep their raid secret because they want as few defenders as possible...

however, once the raid was spotted, then that means its not a secret anymore. In my view if you spot an enemy raid there is nothing wrong with doing everything in your power and getting as many people to come defend as you can.

The mid's spotted the raids and then tried to inform their realm mates, Tilda new this and delted to thread to prevent this.

Now if it was a midgard player who used an alb account to spy on albion then I would agree that this is unfair and cheating and should be stopped.

Or an alb player trying to ruin someone's raid from their own realm cause of personal conflict etc.

But if mids' spot someone raiding them, then there is nothing in the game's rules anywhere that says they shoulnd't be able to inform their friends.

I also agree with people who say that if raid posts are going to be deleted then every raid post should be deleted.

The forums are for communication afterall, between players who aren't logged into the game. A lot of ppl might use the forums at work or home or whatever to keep abreast of thigns while they aren't actively logged in the game, its wrong to punish them for that

 

[Arnor]

Originally posted by old.Xarr
I fail to see why these kind of posts should be deleted. If a relic raid force is observed by someone they should be able to post the info here if they want to. The raid is already in progress then, the enemy has been spotted and the wheels are set in motion. I really doubt a few people browsing BW will be able to log on, rush to a relic keep and foil the raid. Everyone with some relic raid experience know this.

I don't agree with what Tilda did, but the decision was made and I will respect it.

However (this is a big however). If a person is cross-realm spying (i.e has 2 accounts) and get hold of some information about a raid and posts here it should be deleted. The harm will probably already have been done, but still.

My 2cp...

what xarr said


twice!

 

[Vengeful]

Here is an example of a thread that also warns about inc keep raids... on alb forums... okay its a bg raid and not as big as an RR, but the concepts are the same, still takes planning etc to do a BG raid and I'm sure the organisers woulnd't want peeps informed about it.... yet the post was left intact

http://forums.barrysworld.com/showthread.php?threadid=52718

 

[Tilda]

its all very well saying that an unfair advantage is not gained by those in game because they will be told over /gu or /as

The problem is that is also alerts people who are _not_ in game and would otherwize have missed out, they by enabling yourself to get extra people to log on and help.

Tilda

 

[Vengeful]

"its all very well saying that an unfair advantage is not gained by those in game because they will be told over /gu or /as

The problem is that is also alerts people who are _not_ in game and would otherwize have missed out, they by enabling yourself to get extra people to log on and help.

Tilda

"
so??? what exactly is wrong with that? Fact is your raid was scouted by a mid, and he did his duty by alreting all mids every way he could.


in your original post as explanation for deleting the thread you stated this was done to prevent cross-teaming and cross realm spying.... but it has been proven on several counts that the post in no way constituted cross realm teaming or spying.


I find it even more interesting that now you have inadvertantly admitted to your true motive for deleting the post, which as many have claimed was simply to prevent the mids from getting more peeps to defend.


So which is it? Either u deleted the post to prevent cross teaming, or you deleted it to get mids from letting other mids who were browsing the forums at the time know about the raid. If its the second, that would be intersting considering you are an alb player


In any case so what is they got extra people to log on and help? This isn't against the rules of the game, point me out to where it says you can't communicate with your ingame friends offline?

I'd really like to see where GOA or anyone else made up this rule.


This clearly shows that Tilda used his mod powers unfairly to help the albs in a relic raid attempt.....

anyways i think i've said all I wanted to say on this issue.. last post on this thread by me

 

[Exiled]

Originally posted by Tilda
The problem is that is also alerts people who are _not_ in game and would otherwize have missed out, they by enabling yourself to get extra people to log on and help.

Tilda

lol, gets extra ppl to log on and help, also gets more ppl to log on and kill you, so your saying, if your in a lan say, with 10ppl from your realm and 2 from another, they are playing other games, and you shout we doing rr log in and help, is against the CoC or something tilda ?

 

[Driwen]

I disagree with Tilda on this matter. I think if you post a thread on a board and by that get a few extra people online, I wouldnt mind that. However the thing what i mostly want is a line that is straight, so I'd rather have all these threads that are possibly cross realm or realm wide /as deleted (that actually means also that "highly" mentioned dragon raid of the albs) than have sometimes out of nowhere threads deleted, because the mod on duty thought it was ruining some peoples fun. So i dont mind which way it goes, just choose a way thats straight. My preference has it that no thread is deleted that is a pve thread, which can be done at any time or a RvR thread, off which the subject has happened or has already started.
However dont say that making pve threads on BW isnt cross realm talk and RvR threads are or that you deleted it to ruin a few peoples fun, because you ruined a few peoples fun who could have joined in aswell and make the battle little bit bigger, which might have been more fun for both sides.
I think the mods in the end should make their decisions off closing/deleting on principles that the community off this boards has agreed with. So if this community wants that RvR threads after the first move has happened isnt allowed, until the fight has certainly finished. Then so be it. I mostly want to have the rules clear, so that what last happened with Tilda wont happen again. That a mod deletes a thread that from his point of view has no right to exist yet and from others has every right.

 

[kirennia]

Can't agree more with the fact that these threads should 100% definately be deleted about on going keep/relic raids as and when they are happening. Remember this is a three realm server.

Ok, take this as an example.

Albion are moving through midgard and just before they get to the mid relic keep, a mid spots them, alerts his alliance then comes on here telling people to log on quickly to help. So who reads this.....people who are not in the game. Okay so a Hib reads this. They then log on and alert the alliance and all Hibs that Alb's are trying to take Mid relic so they should go and defend amg to nab it back (all this coming from a post on here). Hib's then defend amg and manage to stop Albs from getting the relic home. Hib's now have an albion relic in their shrine because a mid told everyone on here. Think about it, that's as good as damned the relic raid and completely turned the tides for the next 6 months because of a post on here which shouldn't of been able to post anyway. Okay so you can say that people could say it on irc anyways whilst they are logged on, whats the difference. Well, some people use irc whilst playing DAoC on the same computer. DAoX is a third party program, thus cannot be condoned by barrysworld. Slightly off topic I know and kinda lost my point at the end but anyways, alerting the 3rd realm in the game is a big issue also.

As for PvE raids and such, unless the raid leader themself post it, it should be deleted, therefore it is their own stupidity if the raid is ruined by a member of the other realm reading it on here. Anyonelse posting about it before it happens is kinda alerting the enemy realms too without consent of the raid leader, thus could be said as cross-realm teaming or what have you.

I know the points made are rarities but base it on real life laws. It is illegal to carry a blade longer then 3 inches around with you, its a rare case that the blade will be used but none-the-less a law has to be made to stop all bad instances occuring. This is the same kind of thing. Something bad, rare as it may be, that could happen as a result of posting here should not be allowed to be posted. /as is there for a reason, if people aren't logged on at a particular time playing the game then...well...they don't know what's going on at that particular time.

Comments welcomed, flames are not

Kir

 

[Garnet]

IMO I think you should have Moderators who know about the game but dont play it currently.

 

[old.Filip]

post's that makes the game easyer/more fun to play:

Crafters selling vares: makes it easyer for both parts

PvE raids: we need loads of ppl to kill the dam dragon, this is easyer to get with posting on BW

Flames/Whines/IownedU/UcheatUglySod: love em

post's that take away the joy:

Relic raid warnings to the 3. realm .....

i still remember a relic raid in the early days where the alb army get seen by a hib ranger and some hibs warn mids over IRC...

so for me cross-realm warnings should be deletet any time the mod's see em...

(this allso goes for BG event's)

Filip
GM of HB

 

[Tranquil-]

What this man said. Alot of you are simply trying to justify the thread. Not attempting to keep the spirit of the game intact.(Ooh, fancy words)

 

[cplcarrot]

Totally agree, using BW as a method of crossrealming during any event, doesnt ring right to me.

what I would say is that Moderators must , if they wish to do this, ensure checks and measures are in place to stop moderator madness.

Eg. 1 rule for all and a clear rule on when "during" actually is.

 

[Jiggs]

Originally posted by Vell
There was nothing wrong with what Herjulf did. He spotted some albs in our frontier and circulated the information to as many people as he could reach.

yes including hibernians...

Thats my point. Ask yourself a question:

do you actually want to have realms making relic raids?


because with people prepared to put aside their honour to win soon no one will be bothering...

 

[old.shotgunstow]

Originally posted by ASq.Karnage
Iraq has died.
Iraq drops Oil!
[Group] USA: omg uber
USA picks up Oil.
USA has gone linkdead.
[Group] Bulgaria: wtf?
[Group] Spain: omg, last time I'm grouping with them
[Alliance] France: Haha, I told you losers!

 

[jetsetminer]

I just wanted to post to say I agree with what seems to be a new policy of deleting threads that discuss or announce relic raids while the raid is in progress. Such threads are, as someone else pointed out, just the same as spamming IRC announcing a raid. I think is it nearly universaly agreed that announcing raids in IRC is a bad thing.

Yes there has been different behaviour in the past, but what people seem to be missing is that this is accepted, and this thread is here to shape the future of moderating. What does it serve to continually bash moderators for past "mistakes" in a thread that is only here to try and shape a new better future?

I personally agree with deleting threads about relic raids that are in progress, and I would like to see all such threads deleted.

Posting after the event is fine, posting about other events such as PvE raids is fine. But posting about RvR raids where it could make a huge difference by unfairly alerting defeders and attackers who are not currently playing is a bad thing.

I would also like to say - stop bashing the moderators! - it is a mostly thankless task that people are not paid to do, but do out of their desire to ensure that this site keeps some sort of order. Yes sometimes mistakes are made but everyone has 20/20 hindsight. It is much easier to mindlessly hurl abuse and criticism after the event than it is to make the right descision at the time. Give people a chance and help to shape the future in a constructive way, or if you think you can put the massive amount of time in needed to be a moderator, and think you can be perfect all the time, prove it by posting sensibly and applying to be a mod. Then see how you enjoy the flames over your decisions.

 

[old.CrazyMuppet]

What it comes down to is 1 very simple fact:

There is a reason you can't talk to realm enemies ingame.

This is a clear design decision and it's for a reason.

That's why the forums shouldnt contain any info/warnings about realm events in progress either.

 

[warshade]

With regards to the CoC thing...
Cross realm communication is not against the CoC, it's only against the CoC if the information passed was obtained through spying, or if the information creates a detrimental effect to your own realm. I remember seeing something along those lines in one of the grab bags a while ago.

Whether it makes it right or not is another thing. Personally I wouldn't do it, as I don't regard it as being within the spirit of the game, however I don't see a problem with it when it's not against the CoC. It's all about getting the message out as fast as possible, and not everyone is in a guild or has access to /as... I know myself how frustrating it is to message lots of people individually to let them know a relic is under attack.

Yesterday Hibernia took their power relic back from midgard. People posted information about it in IRC to let their realm mates know that they should come and defend, giving a great battle at the mmg in odins. Passing information like this will ruin some people's raids, in that they won't get a free run at relics, but then a raid that relies on not being spotted will most likely fail anyway. The use of irc/forums is as integral to passing messages to people as /send, /gu and /as is in game.

If it's a post about something that will happen in the future, yes, the post should be deleted (and the person reported), if it's a post about something that is in progress or has happened, there is no reason for it to go... the close nit community that resides here with respond to it in their usual way...

 

[old.chipper]

im glad they deleted the thread it does spoil the game true the the relic raid is probably already in progress and a few more ppl might come along which is nothing HOWEVER what happens if hibs raiding midgard relic keep and albs get wind of a relic raid before the relic goes neutral that alb can log on and spam alliance channels "hibs on relic raid lets go intercept" this would be really terrible the albs would have a signifcant advantage and be able to get a sizeable force to a milegate to intercept alot quicker than they otherwise might this is wrong imo if youre not in game you have no business posting about something in progress as important as a relic raid they are hard enough to pull off succesfully as it is.

 

[old.Tzeentch]

http://silent-death.net/images/misc_sekret_irc_log.gif

 

[Erekrose]

Originally posted by Garnet
IMO I think you should have Moderators who know about the game but dont play it currently.

But if all the mods did play who would mod?

 

[Brevis]

As I see from the post, there is a majority of people thinking its a bad idea to post stuff like this on the boards. And if so there should be some rules for it.

In my opinion, doing a post of "hey we will be out in BG3 xx date etc etc, come join in" actually help people get to enjoy the game more. So I would welcome threads like this.

Threads regarding PvE like "How about a dragonraid xx date etc etc more details ingame" should also be welcome, because the date set on this board might be accurate or a fake date (ie raid held another day but the raid has been advertised so people get interested).

Any threads of "omfg Raid by xxx's here and there and all around" should be modded/reported to get deleted. This is regardless of it being keep take in frontier zones, BG's, Relic raids and "omg xxx's camp amg/mmg/hmg, everybody log on and bring pie"

I think having these kindda rules could work.

 

[Sabu]

Well there is not advantage for any realm, cause 3 realms can post here about a raid going on.

And some players use Irc, Roger Wilko(or similars), etc ... so posting here about raids can help the "normal" players to reduce the advantage in front of the players using IRc, RW , etc...

Anyway no advantage for a realm in front of the others, 3 realms can post and read the forums.

Another point of view.... are the moderators 24/7 reading the forums? i doubt it, so you will no be able to delete all the raid posts. YOu will delete only the posts that you read at the right time. So some posts will advise people and others will be deleted.

Conclussion : Dont delete that posts

 

[Tilda]

as chipper said,

1 mid screenies a relic raid, and posts on BW

1 hib sees that screenie, logs on tells all of hib alliance that albs are doing relic raid

ALL of hib gos to amg and camps it to poach the relic

say albs somehow manage to get all 3 relics away from the mids and approach amg

Then say somehow, SoS, BoF and insta-heals all fail and the albs get wiped, mids are behind and hibs pick up the relic, run to hpk and manage to swipe out the relic from under albs and hibs noses.

Now lets go back to the start, hibs got all 3 relics ALL because of 1 mid who reported a relic raid on BW.

Yes it can happen on irc, which IS out of our control, but imo is should NOT happen on BW.

Tilda

 

[Vell]

But you still can't delete all the threads reporting raids. The moderators here are volunteers, you don't spend your entire life browsing the forums looking for threads that go against the rules.

So, one day you delete a reported relic raid from XXX realm, the next day you don't delete the same thread because you weren't looking at the forums at that time.

These threads will only be of any use at the immediate time, it's not like threads about account selling because these can be deleted any time and it doesn't make much difference.

If you delete a thread 5 mins after it's posted, but then don't delete a different one until 2 hours after it's posted, that's going to look VERY bad indeed.

It simply isn't possible for these threads to be moderated on such a timely basis every time. It just won't work. So you have an option of:
A) deleting some of them and leaving others open, or
B) leaving them all open

To be honest, it doesn't take a genius to spot that B) is a better choice for both the community AND the moderators.

Do you really want to open yourselves up to the abuse "you didn't delete that thread until 30mins after it was posted! You are teh Suxx!" ?

 

[Trinilim]

In my own personal and un-biased opinion I agree with the decision to delete the post made about the relic raid.

On the contrary, I feel that if posts of that nature are to be deleted on sight, that the moderators of BW should not just look at rvr discussion, but also at BG, and all the other forums.

There is _no_ difference between a BG1 CK raid and a relic raid.

Both are operations which take place for the enjoyment of the players.

And as such, if one topic is to be deleted, then all others of that nature are to be deleted as well.

Moving onto the next point, I really disagree with people posting the information on here, or other places such as this, in the first place.

There's absolutely nothing I or anyone else can do to keep people from using IRC and forums to alert realm mates of a potential relic raid.

But I'm glad to see it's trying to be dealt with at least on this forum.

In-game events accuring at that specific time should be kept in-game.

Don't take me wrong saying this, but if you do alerts like that, all you're doing is spoiling the fun for others. And I'm not saying that like a whining albion loser who went crying home to mommy. If I see a hib/mid relic raid in progress, I'll tell all the people I can... in game.

Build a great defense with what you've got available to you at that given time.

All in all I think red-alerts should be kept in game, off IRC, off forums.

Just my 2 cents.