Baku Pipline

[Will]

I've just put a rant about this on my website here, and wanted to kick off a little discussion. Some of you probably already realise I'm a bit of an anti-globalisation type at heart, but I've pretty much kept it off the forums. However, this pipeline sets my blood boiling. So have a read, check out the link in the story, write to your MP if you feel strongly (please), and feel free to discuss or ask questions, about this, or even just about what the hell anti-globalisation is all about.

*awaits this thread sinking or burning*

 

[Testin da Cable]

I'm all for oppressing the unwashed tbh

seriously though, it's nasty that stuff like this happens in the name of capitalism don't you think?

 

[Will]

I don't have a lot of info to hand here (I'm at work at the moment), but there is far more oppression than you imagine that goes on in the name of free trade. The WTO, IMF, and various other organisations, really do exploit developing countries, and this pipeline is a prime example of corporations taking advantage.

George W being in power in the US really isn't helping, and the whole US political system (uncapped campaign funds and the huge power of lobbying groups) is almost designed to help increase corporate power, but Britain could do with cleaning up its act too. If enough people oppose this pipeline, maybe the government will start to take notice. If not, we get to vote them out soon enough.

 

[Gumbo]

Is it going to make my petrol cheaper?

Oh, thats not the point is it

 

[Will]

Originally posted by Gumbo
Is it going to make my petrol cheaper?

Oh, thats not the point is it

Well spotted. Its for increasing BP's profit margin.

 

[mr.Blacky]

Hehe gonna enjoy this
Why don't you let this over for the people in the affected area? Or do people think that just because people live in another country cant make their mind up for themselves ?

Don't get me wrong I think it is a silly idea for the countries.

 

[Will]

Good question. I'll save the proper answer for when I'm home and have more sources of information. THen I'll be able to tell you why the governments of the countries have allowed this deal to go through.

The main reason we can get involved is because the cost is being underwritten by the DFID, a government department who brokers and underwrites deals like these with taxpayers money. This is a nice change from them brokering arms deals however.

 

[stu]

Woe betide you if you are a Turkish Kurd.

sounds fine to me, they're scum.

 

[Will]

Originally posted by mr.Blacky
Why don't you let this over for the people in the affected area? Or do people think that just because people live in another country cant make their mind up for themselves ?

Don't get me wrong I think it is a silly idea for the countries.

There is some short-term gain involved for the governments, however, the jobs created are entirely temporary, the long term enviromental damage will be great, and large numbers of people will be relocated. But the elected representatives will not be around that far down the line, so they don't really care that much.

We can make a difference ourselves, since some of the money involved comes from us (I know you aren't from the UK Blacky, but hey, I'm on a roll), so why not try?


*ignores stu*

 

[Embattle]

Originally posted by Will.
the long term enviromental damage will be high

What?

 

[Will]

I edited it to great. Here is a little something to back what I said up.

 

[Scooba Da Bass]

*confused*

Last night I had some idiot ranting at me about this. He then proceeded to roll up a joint, that confused me, Is growing weed an ethical business that helps the local farmers?

 

[Embattle]

Originally posted by Will.
I edited it to great. Here is a little something to back what I said up.

Nothing new tbh, it still has no more enviromental damage than any other method tbh.

 

[Tom]

I don't understand. How does this exploit the countries that it runs through? I'm not being awkward, I just don't know.

 

[ECA]

Originally posted by Tom[SHOTTEH]
I don't understand. How does this exploit the countries that it runs through? I'm not being awkward, I just don't know.

The pipeline is exempt from changing pay/work conditions for 40 years.

:/
In some cases it will be the only employer available and keep a large number of people in poverty 20 yrs down the road.

 

[bids]

I have a lot of BP shares

 

[bids]

I've just read through a lot of these 'sources of information' and the majority of the texts are based on supposition and conjecture (too many 'coulds', 'suggests' and in some instances factual inaccuracies). I particularly like the bit about how the pipeline/BP will cause human rights abuses in Turkey - geez.

Any links to the BP case for the pipeline ?

 

[xane]

I find it a bit ironic that the pipeline is threatening the local fishing industry, yet Turkey is one of a number of countries who have overfished the Black Sea to devastation levels. That fishing is prohibited around the oil terminal is surely a good thing ?

The real irony must be reserved for the claims of "colonialism", by describing the agreements between BP (a public company), and the three countries concerned (who have democractically elected governments). This accusation is made by non-government organisations (NGOs), who are not exactly public or democratic in nature themselves.

The section on "climate change" is just plain misleading. There is no distinction made between "pollution" that causes environmental health effects, and "pollution" that causes greenhouse gases, namely CO2, you know, that stuff that you breath out and makes plants grow. This section implies that the pollution is in addition, but it is not, the oil is already being burned and causing pollution, it just takes a different route, it doesn't add anything at all to the world's pollution.

I like the way nuclear power is neatly sidestepped in the discussion on fossil fuels, yet it's a zero-emission product that can deliver the cheap energy needed for electrical or fuel-cell based technology which can also become zero-emission, for people so concerned with what gets pumped into the atmosphere they seem to be missing the one important solution that is available today, right now.

 

[Will]

I was waiting for you to step in, Xane. You always make me think about things.

The enviromental damage...I thought that too to be honest. The bit I'm worried about is a pipeline running along a major fault line. It really seems a bit of a recipe for disaster. Then again, it wouldn't make much economic sense to build a pipeline that is going to break, so I'll put that one aside.

I've always been in favour of nuclear power. Wave, wind and solar power aren't viable alternatives yet, but nuclear would reduce the dependance we have on fossil fuels.

The claims of colonialism really are a massive simplification of the main points raised by the anti-globalisation activists. That was the main reason why I didn't begin to understand the point of those huge protests until the last few years, after I did a bit of background reading. Trashing MacDonalds* because it was a big company was never a good enough answer for me.

ECA has stated my main point. However, he has emphasised the wrong part of it. There will be virtually no long term jobs created by the pipeline. The point that gets my goat is that BP and the other companies involved will be outside governmental control once this 120 day consultation period is over. And personally, I think that is a bad idea.

And Scoob...it might have been homegrown.

*I have never trashed a Maccy D's

 

[moomin]

I suggest we all run our cars off veggie oil, I know a friend that runs his car off veggie oil


it smells funny, no wait that's wij

 

[djpringle]

Granted that the pipeline itself won't create long term employment, it should be noted that the terminal and production facilities at each end will be staffed with mainly locals and have a few ex-pats there for a limited period of time.

I agree though that the pipeline being outside of governmental control is bad and frankly I'm amazed that they've managed to get away with it. Every facet of our operations in Vietnam is very tightly government controlled and we seem to do alright.

A couple of questions though, what is the problem with globalisation and what is the actual alternative?

 

[Will]

Originally posted by djpringle
A couple of questions though, what is the problem with globalisation and what is the actual alternative?

Heh, why ask these questions 5 minutes before I finish work?

I'll give you an answer when I get home, though I warn you, I'm going via the pub.

 

[mr.Blacky]

Originally posted by Will.
The enviromental damage...I thought that too to be honest. The bit I'm worried about is a pipeline running along a major fault line. It really seems a bit of a recipe for disaster. Then again, it wouldn't make much economic sense to build a pipeline that is going to break, so I'll put that one aside.
[/i]

Okay you put this one aside, but a lot of pipelines, tunnels and bridges are built on fault lines. Just look at the Channel Tunnel. Earth Considering the fact that Turkey just had a major earthquake it will be safe for a couple of years, the stress has been reducesed allong the fault line.

Tbh the only thing that I think is wrong is the fact that there is no control by the local governments, not even a joint control by the nations over which the line runs. For the rest I really cant say that there is anything wrong with because for all the negative points on the site there are positive points.

 

[djpringle]

Originally posted by Will.
Heh, why ask these questions 5 minutes before I finish work?

I'll give you an answer when I get home, though I warn you, I'm going via the pub.

Many apologies I'd just been to the pub

 

[Tom]

Originally posted by mr.Blacky
Okay you put this one aside, but a lot of pipelines, tunnels and bridges are built on fault lines. Just look at the Channel Tunnel.

There are no fault lines running along the English Channel, and were the pipeline to break, it would be automatically detected (presumbaly via a drop in local pressure), and the flow switched off at the nearest control point. Oil spillages on land are very different to those at sea.

The biggest problem with the may day protesters is that they haven't got their message across to the public. All we see are a minority of idiots defacing public monuments, hardly a good PR move.

 

[mr.Blacky]

read again
here

 

[Embattle]

They aren't exactly that active, kind of pointless ref tbh.

Some people will always have a problem what ever method is picked when it comes to power sources, delivery etc.

 

[djpringle]

Originally posted by Tom[SHOTTEH]
were the pipeline to break, it would be automatically detected (presumbaly via a drop in local pressure), and the flow switched off at the nearest control point.

The leak detection system would probably detect a catastrophic failure but the small leaks (locals drilling into the pipe!!) are very hard to find and would go unnoticed until a routine inspection was carried out. These are done regularly however (weekly where I used to work).

 

[Will]

*returns home*

Anti-globalisation, in simple terms, is protesting at the way developed countries take advantage of developing countries, via organisations such as the IMF, the WTO, the World Bank, and G8.

You also get protests against large companies, either abusing monoplies (think Starbucks and Walmart), or taking advantage of cheap overseas labour (Nike trainers being made in sweatshops in China for pennies in terrible conditions, no benefit to the local economy, then sold for stupid prices).

 

[Trancor]

Personally I think that it is all to do with what developed countrys mp's do for themselves. They are supposed to represent the people in their country, but they always do what is in their own best interests. IMO that's why they keep third world country's as they are, possibly as an excuse for the things they do and also as an excuse to go to war.