Fusion
Fledgling Freddie
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Avalon might be dropped from Longhorn
- Thread starter Fusion
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Shovel
Can't get enough of FH
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Not true.
Longhorn has been chopped up somewhat, which is a crying shame. WinFS is certainly not going to be there until 2007 as an addition, which I was really looking forward to.
However, other things (such as Avalon) will be there, and apparently will be backported to XP and 2003 as well. Which is nice.
See Longhornblogs:
Windows 2006 cutbacks: The Long[horn] and short of it
Longhorn 2006: Some considerations
and Longhorn shakeup: The social perspective
Longhorn has been chopped up somewhat, which is a crying shame. WinFS is certainly not going to be there until 2007 as an addition, which I was really looking forward to.
However, other things (such as Avalon) will be there, and apparently will be backported to XP and 2003 as well. Which is nice.
See Longhornblogs:
Windows 2006 cutbacks: The Long[horn] and short of it
Longhorn 2006: Some considerations
and Longhorn shakeup: The social perspective
Shovel
Can't get enough of FH
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Depends. Since moving to NT (Longhorn will be NT6.0 aparrently [2k was 5.0, XP is 5.1 and Server 2k3 is 5.2) Microsoft haven't done any of this "second edition" nonsense. There was rumour of doing an XP "SE" to fill the gap before Longhorn, but they decided to make these cuts instead.
Unless they can find a way to make WinFS into a standalone product (which would massively limit its potential to developers [which is huge]), then I would expect WinFS to appear in Longhorn in Service Pack 1 or 2, depending on further slips.
Unless they can find a way to make WinFS into a standalone product (which would massively limit its potential to developers [which is huge]), then I would expect WinFS to appear in Longhorn in Service Pack 1 or 2, depending on further slips.
They are making WinFS (For Longhorn, XP and 2003) and Avalon (XP and 2003) as stand alone - 'add-on-products'. So something completely new instead of a second edition... although i would be supprised if they dont release Longhorn with WinFS once WinFS is available hence a second edition Longhorn :
Shovel
Can't get enough of FH
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Ahh, they could, but for something which is as much a Development platform as a feature, and something they need as many people to use as possible, I recon it'll be a service pack and that the Longhorn retail products would (like XP and 2000) get updated with the new Service Pack.
Microsoft will have a big challenge getting developers to take up the new API's, since they'll be Longhorn only (mostly). Therefore they'll want everyone on Longhorn to have it. That way certainly makes more sense to me.
As a test of my 'in Microsoft's Shoes' reasoning, it'd be worth looking up to see whether .NET 1.1 came packed into XP Service Pack 2...
Microsoft will have a big challenge getting developers to take up the new API's, since they'll be Longhorn only (mostly). Therefore they'll want everyone on Longhorn to have it. That way certainly makes more sense to me.
As a test of my 'in Microsoft's Shoes' reasoning, it'd be worth looking up to see whether .NET 1.1 came packed into XP Service Pack 2...
Win FS cant be a service pack
How can a new file storage format be a service pack ?!?!?
You need to install the OS on drives with the file format and in order to do that you need a media for the OS with Win FS to be on hence you need it as a new edition of Windows CD's / DVD's / media things. Unless of course they have some snazy converter between NTFS and Win FS, then it would be possible but would make formatting a git as would have to rebuild the file system after each rebuild.
Avalon for XP and 2003 - yup probably a service pack.
But Win FS no sensible way it can be a service pack.
How can a new file storage format be a service pack ?!?!?
You need to install the OS on drives with the file format and in order to do that you need a media for the OS with Win FS to be on hence you need it as a new edition of Windows CD's / DVD's / media things. Unless of course they have some snazy converter between NTFS and Win FS, then it would be possible but would make formatting a git as would have to rebuild the file system after each rebuild.
Avalon for XP and 2003 - yup probably a service pack.
But Win FS no sensible way it can be a service pack.
Shovel
Can't get enough of FH
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Oooh noo! I'm afraid you're quite right about WinFS there. WinFS isn't a file system, it just has a really misleading name!
WinFS actually stands for "Windows Future Storage" (not Windows File System as most sane people would assume).
WinFS is a service which sits on top of NTFS. NTFS is still the filesystem and will be for some time yet I'm sure.
The WinFS service runs a database layer over the File System, and to the user provides functionality comparable to, say, "Smart Playlists" in iTunes (or "Smart Views" in WinAMP, or "Auto Playlists" in WMP etc). Or compare it to a picture organisation app like Adobe's "Photoshop Album".
The theory is that you get dynamic views of the files on your system, without being confined to directories. You can have the same file appear in two different 'places' without having to duplicate it.
Anyway, because it's a stupidly named service, and not a filesystem, it could be added in a service pack.
WinFS actually stands for "Windows Future Storage" (not Windows File System as most sane people would assume).
WinFS is a service which sits on top of NTFS. NTFS is still the filesystem and will be for some time yet I'm sure.
The WinFS service runs a database layer over the File System, and to the user provides functionality comparable to, say, "Smart Playlists" in iTunes (or "Smart Views" in WinAMP, or "Auto Playlists" in WMP etc). Or compare it to a picture organisation app like Adobe's "Photoshop Album".
The theory is that you get dynamic views of the files on your system, without being confined to directories. You can have the same file appear in two different 'places' without having to duplicate it.
Anyway, because it's a stupidly named service, and not a filesystem, it could be added in a service pack.
Shovel
Can't get enough of FH
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Aye, the combination of silly name and Microsoft marketing does give the wrong impression really. As far as the end user is concerned, the plan was that they'd access all their files through WinFS in Windows Explorer, as it would offer immediate benefits over using Partitionir\File type interfacing.
As I understand it, the only people who would need to know about old style 'Drive Letters' would be administrators (who would of course install programs and perform maintanance on on C:\Windows).
As best I know, NTFS wont be changing, which is kinda a shame since it'd be nice to have better symblinks and maybe even some hardlinks ala *nix to make multi-partition setups work smoother. Alas, maybe not this time.
ir\File type interfacing.As I understand it, the only people who would need to know about old style 'Drive Letters' would be administrators (who would of course install programs and perform maintanance on on C:\Windows).
As best I know, NTFS wont be changing, which is kinda a shame since it'd be nice to have better symblinks and maybe even some hardlinks ala *nix to make multi-partition setups work smoother. Alas, maybe not this time.
Q: I keep hearing that WinFS is a new file system. Is Microsoft abandoning NTFS?
A: No. WinFS is implemented as an add-on to NTFS and is not a completely new file system. Rather, it is a new storage engine built on the NTFS file system.
Q: So what's the point?
A: Microsoft is trying to make it easier for you to find your data on our ever-increasing hard drives. By adding relational database capabilities to the file system, it will take less time to find documents, email, and other data. After all, as one Microsoft executive asked me recently, "Why can we find anything we want on the Internet in seconds, but it takes so long to find our own data on our own PCs?" In addition to the underlying WinFS technology, Microsoft is also adding a new file system concept called Libraries, which will organize like collections of data in Longhorn, regardless of where they are physically stored in the system. For example, a Photos & Movies Library would collect links to every digital photo and digital video on your system.
"I should not care about location when I save," says Microsoft VP Chris Jones. "Why can't I just click on my computer and it shows me my documents? It is a computer. It should know what a document is, what I have edited and annotated, what I have searched for before, and what other places I have looked for documents. It is not just documents on my computer I am looking for. It is documents I care about."
A: No. WinFS is implemented as an add-on to NTFS and is not a completely new file system. Rather, it is a new storage engine built on the NTFS file system.
Q: So what's the point?
A: Microsoft is trying to make it easier for you to find your data on our ever-increasing hard drives. By adding relational database capabilities to the file system, it will take less time to find documents, email, and other data. After all, as one Microsoft executive asked me recently, "Why can we find anything we want on the Internet in seconds, but it takes so long to find our own data on our own PCs?" In addition to the underlying WinFS technology, Microsoft is also adding a new file system concept called Libraries, which will organize like collections of data in Longhorn, regardless of where they are physically stored in the system. For example, a Photos & Movies Library would collect links to every digital photo and digital video on your system.
"I should not care about location when I save," says Microsoft VP Chris Jones. "Why can't I just click on my computer and it shows me my documents? It is a computer. It should know what a document is, what I have edited and annotated, what I have searched for before, and what other places I have looked for documents. It is not just documents on my computer I am looking for. It is documents I care about."
TdC
Trem's hunky sex love muffin
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well, it's either going to be saving multiple copies of everything all over the place wasting space or wacking things into a central repository kind of thing and leaving pointers everywhere to get screwed up. imo users stand a greater chance of losing something when they (example) uninstall some random app than when they actually have to think "oh yeah, I have to make a noodie pic dir for my pr0n". ah well, you won't be hearing me to tech support
Xavier
Can't get enough of FH
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Shovel said:Aye, the combination of silly name and Microsoft marketing does give the wrong impression really. As far as the end user is concerned, the plan was that they'd access all their files through WinFS in Windows Explorer, as it would offer immediate benefits over using Partition
As I understand it, the only people who would need to know about old style 'Drive Letters' would be administrators (who would of course install programs and perform maintanance on on C:\Windows).
As best I know, NTFS wont be changing, which is kinda a shame since it'd be nice to have better symblinks and maybe even some hardlinks ala *nix to make multi-partition setups work smoother. Alas, maybe not this time.
You can mount drives as subfolders of existing drives, what else would you want to do?
Teren
One of Freddy's beloved
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A hard link is the same file. A soft link is a small file that points to a file. If a hard link is deleted - all other hard links dissapear, coz it's one file. A soft link has nothing to do with the file it points to.TdC said:you all suck ass and you know it. besides, none of you know what a hard link is anyway
Easy
Gurnox
One of Freddy's beloved
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Teren said:A hard link is the same file. A soft link is a small file that points to a file. If a hard link is deleted - all other hard links dissapear, coz it's one file. A soft link has nothing to do with the file it points to.
Easy
I knew that too and, you're right, it was easy. Come on TdC, you can do better than that.
Shovel's right by the way.
Athan
Resident Freddy
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Teren said:A hard link is the same file. A soft link is a small file that points to a file. If a hard link is deleted - all other hard links dissapear, coz it's one file. A soft link has nothing to do with the file it points to.
Except in the Unix case of 'hard link' (hedging my bets here in case there's another OS that has something of the same name), you're exactly wrong about hard links and deletion.
A file is simply a series of blocks on disk, with an 'inode' keeping track of which blocks. A filename is simply a pointer to an inode. A Hard Link is simply an additional filename pointing to an already extant inode. If you delete one filename (hard link) to an inode all the others stay put and the actual inode, and thus the actual file, isn't deleted until the LAST filename/hard link is explicitly deleted.
Whereas, yes, indeed, a symbolic link is just a special file saying "nope, you don't want me, you want that file over there --->", and if its target is deleted then tough luck, it'll still point there but obviously not to anything that still exists.
-Ath