Impressed Australia leading the way again.

[Raven]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-18951205

Excellent idea. Something we should look into adapting here!

The genuine out of work people would still eat and the lazy people won't be able to get knew shiny things to make it all better.

 

[Mabs]

brilliant idea tbh, would love to see it over here

 

[Ormorof]

The Basics card is a reusable "credit" card that makes people spend their welfare money at approved stores and businesses.

while i like the idea in principle i dislike the idea of the state sponsoring Tesco more than they already do

 

[old.Tohtori]

It's a bit of this and bit of that really. Good idea, but also a bit degrading.

Then again no one except yourself really notices it. Stops people from buying booze etc, but then again it's still theirs to spend.

Just thinking they could've spent the money they spent making this system into something else, like giving students more money.

 

[DaGaffer]

I'd be a bit more enthusiastic if it wasn't so blatantly racist in its intent. The minute I read "launched in Queensland and The Northern Territory" it was obvious what its all about. Now alcoholism amongst Aborigines is a major problem but its one that was caused by the Australian state in the first place.

Also be interesting to see what's on the "approved products" list, and where the line is between individual choice and social engineering; knowing the control-freakery of the Aussie Government (at all levels), I'm guessing its biased towards the latter.

 

[Mabs]

I'd be a bit more enthusiastic if it wasn't so blatantly racist in its intent. The minute I read "launched in Queensland and The Northern Territory" it was obvious what its all about. Now alcoholism amongst Aborigines is a major problem but its one that was caused by the Australian state in the first place.

Also be interesting to see what's on the "approved products" list, and where the line is between individual choice and social engineering; knowing the control-freakery of the Aussie Government (at all levels), I'm guessing its biased towards the latter.

lol yea i read that and my first thought was "arnhem land ?"

 

[soze]

I would love to see that here but one step further with Tesco delivering the food so they don't get any money at all. But they will still arrange to sell all the food and leave little Johnny hungry so they can have Sky TV and 40 fags a day it will change nothing.

 

[TdC]

tbh I know a few alcies in this part of Arnhemland who could use such a thing. Ofc I'd rather they were helped with the reason they're drinking rather than the fact they're drinking but hey, that's a filthy liberal thought and must be incorrect.

 

[Litmus]

Didn't read it all, but how are people meant to pay bills and stuff?.. Or do I need to read the whole article?

 

[Nate]

Seems like a good idea, but I agree with gaff it's all about the minorities. They're pretty heavy handed when it comes to dealing with the alcoholism state that a lot of aboriginal communities have become. Before this came about alcohol was/is heavily tax'd in Northern Territory, I think it was £80 for a 20xbeer crate.

Result will probably be more muggings of tourists for cash/alcohol.

 

[Athan]

Didn't read it all, but how are people meant to pay bills and stuff?.. Or do I need to read the whole article?

Well, one thing many comments here are missing is:

Between 50% and 70% of income is "quarantined" in this way, depending on the individual's circumstances. The rest is available as cash.

The idea being that you only get forced to spend so much in a certain way to try to ensure you a) have somewhere to live (instead of losing it by spending the rent on booze/drugs), b) have sufficient food, c) have a clothing budget, etc. Presumably for things like paying the leccy the companies would be in on the scheme.

 

[Tom]

Maybe it can buy aboriginal babies, after all, the Australians have a track record of taking them.

 

[Jeros]

Gotta love the Ozzies, can't wait till I can move back permanently.

Friend of mine over there is 25, in UK money earns less than 22k a year, has a mortgage on a large (by our standards) Australian house, has enough money going spare to get married and has started building a SECOND large home.

Friend over here had an uphill battle to get a 2 bed semi with a large deposit and a very well paying job.....

 

[Moriath]

Why should I give my tax dollars to someone to buy booze or fags. Or drugs. They are all luxuries after you keep your self live. Benefits should e to survive not a career choice.

Let's have loads oaf kids cause we can spend shit all on them and get a mahoosive house out of the council.

 

[Mey]

Good idea, but also a bit degrading.

Surely the whole point of being on benefits is that it's degrading, the idea of getting hand outs should make you feel shit, else why would you bother looking for work properly.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Surely the whole point of being on benefits is that it's degrading, the idea of getting hand outs should make you feel shit, else why would you bother looking for work properly.

Not really. If you don't give a crap, you won't give a crap about this. If you're a regular joe, you'll already have the need to get a job.

It's just rubbing it in and putting everyone who is on benefits in the same "you dirty slacker" column.

 

[soze]

I agree with this in part. If I had my way scroungers would get food clothing and accommodation and not one penny of it in cash. I would then open it up so if you want to smoke you have to do community service work for cash. You want Sky then its community service work. Want a holiday you guessed it you work. Fuck the free ride if your not willing to give back then you can have 3 no thrills meals a day something to wear and a roof over your head. This way the people who do want to work get to give something back while taking benefits.

 

[Ormorof]

so labour camps all round then?

And if you say need to travel to get to an interview or need to not look like a hobo for said interview? should you fill in a "Suit and Train ticket" form and wait 6 months for it to arrive? by which time the job has gone to someone else...

 

[old.Tohtori]

There's a certain misconception about unemployed people, or generally people on benefits, where everyone is judged by the lowest hanging fruit.

 

[cHodAX]

And if you say need to travel to get to an interview or need to not look like a hobo for said interview? should you fill in a "Suit and Train ticket" form and wait 6 months for it to arrive? by which time the job has gone to someone else...

Obviously not but that doesn't mean we can't put into place a similar system that does work. Money should be made available to help people at the interview stage by helping them with travel and clothing, infact it should be a priority, you know the old line about 'give a man a fishing net and he will catch fish for a lifetime'.

As for the card scheme, well I fully agree that benefits should not be used for cigs or alcohol, both cause problems that can end up costing society even more money in the long run and we shouldn't be publicially funding addictions. If we took away those and forced the people to spend benefits on food/clothing/bills then we would drastically improve the quality of life for many children currently living below the breadline because of irresponsible parents.

As for Soze's suggestion of community work in exchange for Sky/holidays/booze/cigs well I couldn't agree more, if you want luxuries then you need to be prepared to give something in exchange for them. 10 hours community work a week is nothing in the grand scheme of things but it encourages a working mentality and would alter the mindset of many when it comes to dependence on state handouts.

The first law I would implement if I got into power would be make it compulsary for anyone under the age of 21 and on benefits to have to work 10 hours a week on community projects. I honestly think it would be a longterm game changer for this country.

 

[DaGaffer]

Surely the whole point of being on benefits is that it's degrading, the idea of getting hand outs should make you feel shit, else why would you bother looking for work properly.

Fine in principle, but the primary reason the Australians introduced this is to control the Aborigines' drinking and drug-taking. Drinking and drug-taking that is only endemic amongst those people because of the behaviour of successive Australian governments. See where there might be a slight problem here? If Aborigines were just like the general population and it was a case of getting off their arses and going out to find work, then you'd have a point, but this is a culture that in the 21st century doesn't even like Aborigines coming off their Reserves to visit large towns. Even if you're an Aborigine with a degree in Australia there's still a 40% unemployment rate (and Aborigines with degrees are rare enough - you're four times more likely to have a degree if you're white), for all the less educated Aborigines unemployment is as high as 90% in places. Got to say, if I was stuck on a reservation in the Northern Territory with a 1-in-10 chance of work, I'd probably drink heavily as well.

I'm not a big advocate of Aborigines' rights in the context of giving them their "rightful" land back (fuckers did nowt with it for 50,000 years so tough shit, although if you read Guns, Germs & Steel you can start to understand why), but at the same time there has to be a middle ground that's more inclusive than dumping people on reserves and giving them restricted shopping cards.

 

[Athan]

You said it Tohtori. Not everyone on benefits is there because they're lazy. Some are unfortunate enough to have mental health problems that plain mean they can't work (heck, a lot of days can't even get out of bed and do something to fill the time). Imagine the effect of this "only 3 meals a day, accommodation and clothes, nothing spare to spend on something to fill the time" scenario on *YOU* if you were genuinely unable to 'buck up' and go do at least volunteer work.

So many people seem to lack the basic empathy to understand that there are people who literally wrestle with anxiety and depression every day, heck even to do the smallest of things within that day.

Having said that I do like the basic idea of what Australia is doing. It works because it only affects a certain (per person) percentage of the benefits amount. It will help some people get back to work just due to ensuring they have the basics of accommodation, food etc covered so have a stable base to work from.

For the record, I've been on Incapacity Benefit (soon to be ESA) since ~March 2001. I've been to doctors, psychiatrists and psychologists on and off throughout, and have tried every medication (even stab in the dark anti-psychotics) offered to me. Nothing has made a difference to my fundamental problem of Generalised and Social Anxiety with a side order of Avoidant Personality Disorder. I'd love to get back into work, both for the money and the sense of fulfilment, but I am very aware of how inconsistently I can even get out of bed, or having done that, interact with other people for any purpose.

Since being on the benefits (Housing Benefit, oh sorry I mean the much reduced Local Housing Allowance plus Council Tax in addition to the Incap) I've been very circumspect with my finances. Since 2005 or so I've meticulously planned things with the help of GNUCash (GNU's version of M$ Money), and prior to that used a simple text file to do the same. Whenever LHA comes into my account I put it (plus topups as it far from covers my full rent) straight into a separate savings account until rent is due so there's no way I could accidentally spend it. Not everyone is capable of that kind of self-discipline, so what this 'credit card' thing would be doing for someone in my situation is removing the need for such careful planning.

And, yes, my blood boils every time I hear about some scum-sucking benefits cheat. As well as cheating the tax payer out of money they also make it more onerous for those genuinely in need to get the help that might get them back on their feet.

 

[cHodAX]

Fine in principle, but the primary reason the Australians introduced this is to control the Aborigines' drinking and drug-taking. Drinking and drug-taking that is only endemic amongst those people because of the behaviour of successive Australian governments. See where there might be a slight problem here? If Aborigines were just like the general population and it was a case of getting off their arses and going out to find work, then you'd have a point, but this is a culture that in the 21st century doesn't even like Aborigines coming off their Reserves to visit large towns. Even if you're an Aborigine with a degree in Australia there's still a 40% unemployment rate (and Aborigines with degrees are rare enough - you're four times more likely to have a degree if you're white), for all the less educated Aborigines unemployment is as high as 90% in places. Got to say, if I was stuck on a reservation in the Northern Territory with a 1-in-10 chance of work, I'd probably drink heavily as well.

I'm not a big advocate of Aborigines' rights in the context of giving them their "rightful" land back (fuckers did nowt with it for 50,000 years so tough shit, although if you read Guns, Germs & Steel you can start to understand why), but at the same time there has to be a middle ground that's more inclusive than dumping people on reserves and giving them restricted shopping cards.

It is the same story in America with the natives, they are pretty much forced into a negative way of life on the reservations. That doesn't mean the Australian concept is flawed however, if it is extended to the entire population then it can no longer be said to target the Aboriginials, yes it may effect them more but what is the downside? That we are depriving them not only of the tools to continue their addiction but enabling the problem to grow with the next generation? That is no downside at all, it might not seem nice to person on benefits but it isn't the role of the state to fund luxuries and addictions.

 

[cHodAX]

You said it Tohtori. Not everyone on benefits is there because they're lazy. Some are unfortunate enough to have mental health problems that plain mean they can't work (heck, a lot of days can't even get out of bed and do something to fill the time). Imagine the effect of this "only 3 meals a day, accommodation and clothes, nothing spare to spend on something to fill the time" scenario on *YOU* if you were genuinely unable to 'buck up' and go do at least volunteer work.

So many people seem to lack the basic empathy to understand that there are people who literally wrestle with anxiety and depression every day, heck even to do the smallest of things within that day.

Having said that I do like the basic idea of what Australia is doing. It works because it only affects a certain (per person) percentage of the benefits amount. It will help some people get back to work just due to ensuring they have the basics of accommodation, food etc covered so have a stable base to work from.

For the record, I've been on Incapacity Benefit (soon to be ESA) since ~March 2001. I've been to doctors, psychiatrists and psychologists on and off throughout, and have tried every medication (even stab in the dark anti-psychotics) offered to me. Nothing has made a difference to my fundamental problem of Generalised and Social Anxiety with a side order of Avoidant Personality Disorder. I'd love to get back into work, both for the money and the sense of fulfilment, but I am very aware of how inconsistently I can even get out of bed, or having done that, interact with other people for any purpose.

Since being on the benefits (Housing Benefit, oh sorry I mean the much reduced Local Housing Allowance plus Council Tax in addition to the Incap) I've been very circumspect with my finances. Since 2005 or so I've meticulously planned things with the help of GNUCash (GNU's version of M$ Money), and prior to that used a simple text file to do the same. Whenever LHA comes into my account I put it (plus topups as it far from covers my full rent) straight into a separate savings account until rent is due so there's no way I could accidentally spend it. Not everyone is capable of that kind of self-discipline, so what this 'credit card' thing would be doing for someone in my situation is removing the need for such careful planning.

And, yes, my blood boils every time I hear about some scum-sucking benefits cheat. As well as cheating the tax payer out of money they also make it more onerous for those genuinely in need to get the help that might get them back on their feet.

We already have fallbacks for people like that as you have said, ESA or the old Incapacity Benefit. It affords them about £30 extra, the problem is how many people spend that extra money, usually it is booze and cigs. That extra money should be spent on things that improve quality of life but also enable the person to eat well and stay or get physically healthy.

As for the self discipline, you are right, not everyone is capable and that is why you take away the option for those that continually fail. Housing benefit should be paid direct to landlords, there is no need for the tenant to ever to see that money.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Athan have you considered putting up a youtube channel and trying to break through that way? It's hard as heck and usually people fail instead of make it, but it could be worth a shot.

 

[Athan]

That's exactly the kind of thing that would send my Anxiety into overdrive unfortunately. But let's not slew this off-topic discussing my specific problems.

 

[Ormorof]

Obviously not but that doesn't mean we can't put into place a similar system that does work. Money should be made available to help people at the interview stage by helping them with travel and clothing, infact it should be a priority, you know the old line about 'give a man a fishing net and he will catch fish for a lifetime'.

As for the card scheme, well I fully agree that benefits should not be used for cigs or alcohol, both cause problems that can end up costing society even more money in the long run and we shouldn't be publicially funding addictions. If we took away those and forced the people to spend benefits on food/clothing/bills then we would drastically improve the quality of life for many children currently living below the breadline because of irresponsible parents.

As for Soze's suggestion of community work in exchange for Sky/holidays/booze/cigs well I couldn't agree more, if you want luxuries then you need to be prepared to give something in exchange for them. 10 hours community work a week is nothing in the grand scheme of things but it encourages a working mentality and would alter the mindset of many when it comes to dependence on state handouts.

The first law I would implement if I got into power would be make it compulsary for anyone under the age of 21 and on benefits to have to work 10 hours a week on community projects. I honestly think it would be a longterm game changer for this country.

even the current system is absurd, for example to get a train ticket to get to an interview you have to first buy the ticket and then fill in a form to get the money back, which takes months (and often you have to apply several times because the original application is "lost", sometimes you dont see any return at all because they will occasionally ask for the original tickets, so when they are lost you have no way to get anything back) - and when you are living on the breadline £30-£40 makes a hell of a difference and often if you are getting £50 to live on for two weeks you simply cant afford to fork out the cash first but there is no way in hell they will pay for the ticket in advance

basically the current system (and from what i gather this new system will work on similar principles) locks you into a location, so if you have high unemployment in an area, you cant get out of that area without a lot of luck or a few weeks on 1 meal a day...

on the idea of voluntary work yes i agree that sounds nice but the system frowns on people doing voluntary work as it is seen as time not spent looking for work - i tried to volunteer at my local library when i was unemployed and bored to tears but if you explain that you are doing something to keep occupied and potentially get new skills the pen pushers at the job centre get nervous and threaten to take away any allowance you are getting which is retarded if you ask me

 

[MYstIC G]

I'd like that introduced here tbh. Mostly to combat the low income drug usage problems. Drug dealers take £ notes but they won't want 40 bags of basmati rice.

 

[rynnor]

I'd like that introduced here tbh. Mostly to combat the low income drug usage problems. Drug dealers take £ notes but they won't want 40 bags of basmati rice.

Someone will though - they will just end up bartering for it or stealing more.

This is just another racist attack on the aborigines by the Australian govt - it should be universally condemned as such - Australia has become as morally devoid as it was culturally devoid tbh.

 

[soze]

even the current system is absurd, for example to get a train ticket to get to an interview you have to first buy the ticket and then fill in a form to get the money back, which takes months (and often you have to apply several times because the original application is "lost", sometimes you dont see any return at all because they will occasionally ask for the original tickets, so when they are lost you have no way to get anything back) - and when you are living on the breadline £30-£40 makes a hell of a difference and often if you are getting £50 to live on for two weeks you simply cant afford to fork out the cash first but there is no way in hell they will pay for the ticket in advance

basically the current system (and from what i gather this new system will work on similar principles) locks you into a location, so if you have high unemployment in an area, you cant get out of that area without a lot of luck or a few weeks on 1 meal a day...

on the idea of voluntary work yes i agree that sounds nice but the system frowns on people doing voluntary work as it is seen as time not spent looking for work - i tried to volunteer at my local library when i was unemployed and bored to tears but if you explain that you are doing something to keep occupied and potentially get new skills the pen pushers at the job centre get nervous and threaten to take away any allowance you are getting which is retarded if you ask me

With the train tickets the credit card system could be a winner. If they are allow certain purchases there is no reason that you could not allow the purchase of train tickets. This could save a lot of red tape and man hours. Interview arranged though the job center they authorize travel to that interview. At the interview you get your attendance confirmed then hand that back and your card is paid off.

And on community work I do not mean something you like doing I mean stuff that helps your community. Picking up litter cleaning graffiti ect ect. I am not talking about people on disability here i just mean the able bodied people who can't or don't want to find work. It is not perfect but seeing some living as comfortably as I am in a free house because they had a few kids they don't care about and are happy to live with their hands out.

Mind you I would also remove the right to buy completely and force people to leave homes that are too big. If you are not paying for the house you do not have a say where it is. 70 year old women living in one room of a 4 bedroom house 40 years after her kids left home is crazy. She should be in a 1 bedroom retirement complex. I would also (science pending) render every male sterile at the age of 13 and only after proving you can raise a child responsibly make them sterile again. Fuck these cunts who have kids to get more benefit money. I know a girl who has done this and i never know if i want to punch her or spit in her face when i met her.