Politics Assisted Dying?

[Scouse]

Ironic some people seem to talk about the next step being someone deciding another persons fate at the same time as doing it themselves in the first phase.

If there are those who cannot give their consent to be killed then you'd have to wonder whether they can protest against their killing at the hand of someone else's judgement.

 

[Embattle]

My point is those who protest that idea yet will do the same but in reverse to those who are component enough to decide for themselves.

 

[Tom]

I think the risk that some people may feel pressured into ending things early, or that some medical personnel may think it better to kill someone without permission, is a price worth paying. Doctors already end lives prematurely, simply by not resuscitating certain patients whose health is judged so poor that they would only suffer further pain. I think it's only logical that patients suffering years of chronic pain or debilitating illness are given the option to choose to die.

Oh and I'm sick of the way the religious leaders get so much attention over matters like this. Their opinion is as relevant to this debate as a veterinarian's is to steering a submarine.

 

[Moriath]

I think the risk that some people may feel pressured into ending things early, or that some medical personnel may think it better to kill someone without permission, is a price worth paying. Doctors already end lives prematurely, simply by not resuscitating certain patients whose health is judged so poor that they would only suffer further pain. I think it's only logical that patients suffering years of chronic pain or debilitating illness are given the option to choose to die.

Oh and I'm sick of the way the religious leaders get so much attention over matters like this. Their opinion is as relevant to this debate as a veterinarian's is to steering a submarine.

I agree and would like to add tammi grey thompson to the religious leaders and the disabled house of lords woman who think it will mean we put down disabled people. Grrrrrr.

 

[Scouse]

the disabled house of lords woman who think it will mean we put down disabled people.

I think it could well do. Eventually.

We're already designing the disabled out of society (which is going to happen, along with genetic engineering of our young*). And it's already happened in the recent past. It's not even an imaginative stretch - it'd just be a reoccurance of recent history.

It's also not that hard a leap from this, which most people think is fine, to the next step if we continue to move down the ladder...




*the fact that I think this tempts me to say "fuck it - who cares what happens" about this anyway - the future is going to be so different from the current. But that's just the lazy fatalist in me.

 

[Moriath]

Saying that i disagree. But i agree with people who say darwinism is stalled in the human race because we can keep the weakest and sick alive long enough to procreate.

Not saying its bad or good. It just is

 

[Bigmac]

If I was terminally ill and in great pain and suffering I would gladly let members of my family put me out of my misery. I would assure them it is what I truly want and for them not to feel guilty about doing it.

I also agree that strict safeguards should be put in place to stop it being abused.

 

[Job]

I think the risk that some people may feel pressured into ending things early, or that some medical personnel may think it better to kill someone without permission, is a price worth paying. Doctors already end lives prematurely, simply by not resuscitating certain patients whose health is judged so poor that they would only suffer further pain. I think it's only logical that patients suffering years of chronic pain or debilitating illness are given the option to choose to die.

Oh and I'm sick of the way the religious leaders get so much attention over matters like this. Their opinion is as relevant to this debate as a veterinarian's is to steering a submarine.

Of course the first steps onto the slippery slope are logical, it's just that people move the goalposts, having no quality of life in the eye of the executioner is allready used in America to plonk old tramps back in the park after they stagger in seriously ill.
Then it will be the disabled...I,m sorry to have to tell you your little girl will never speak hear or see, probably best to withdraw care.
Happens all ready, but don't make it legal.

Watch Elysium again and remember that's where assisted dying ends up.

 

[TdC]

My mum (79) tells me it's all about quality of life. If she is unable to "do her thing" in whatever way, shape or form, then as far as she is concerned that's it. Naturally, it's a very hard thing to decide. When does this rule apply? Who decides that? What criteria need to be met?

In NL law, it's very much about the -physical- person being alive. As soon as my mum is dead, control of the estate passes to me. However....if my mum has anything happen to her mental capacities, old age related or otherwise, there's fuck all I can do to help her because the system will be against me.

Edit: also, for the record, my mum and I share the same view on what does a person make. We don't care about the physical container. People are the avatars and the person, if you will, resides in the mind. If my mum's mind is gone, then my mum is gone, even if her body lives to be a hundred.

 

[Embattle]

People are the avatars and the person

While perhaps bad taste I read your post got to this bit looked across to the one you are using on the forum atm.

 

[TdC]

heh no worries Emb. just me wording things poorly as usual

 

[Scouse]

If my mum's mind is gone, then my mum is gone, even if her body lives to be a hundred.

Would the person who'd "taken her place", a severely mentally disabled one, not have a say?

I sympathise - but you could say you were sailing close to an argument for killing the disabled there...

 

[Embattle]

You are still jumping across the gap from what most people support to your slippery slope which a lot less people would support.

 

[Shagrat]

It's a very narrow gap though

 

[TdC]

Would the person who'd "taken her place", a severely mentally disabled one, not have a say?

I sympathise - but you could say you were sailing close to an argument for killing the disabled there...

Bollocks. I'm not saying "kill everyone with brain-damage" at all. I am saying that my mum has stated she does not want to live in that situation. Because of this, in this example I don't give a shit about the mentally disabled thing that would take my mum's place. As far as I (and my mum) are concerned the house would still stand but nobody would be home.

My mum has explicitly told me that she does not want to live as anything other than herself. She's gone as far as to wear a "do not resuscitate" bracelet, and is making a life-will thing in order to ensure her wishes are carried out regardless of her mental capacity. This is something I actually dislike, because it costs us money to make a thing that I personally find to be self-evident. Unfortunately, like I said, NL law only cares about the individual being alive, not the mental state thereof. Example: my mum gets Altzheimer's and has to be placed in a home. To pay for her treatment after the immediate cash runs out, I would have to sell her house (and prolly mine too). I am not allowed to sell her house until she is dead. If she lives to be 100, this would severely fuck up our financial lives and there is nothing in the NL that would lift a finger to help.

 

[Scouse]

in this example I don't give a shit about the mentally disabled thing that would take my mum's place...

My mum has explicitly told me that she does not want to live as anything other than herself. ... NL law only cares about the individual being alive, not the mental state thereof..

That's the same in the UK. I think the state has decided that the mentally disabled thing that would take your (or my) mum's place has rights of its own - my mum is off down that road now. And if the mind is the only thing that matters, then your mum, to all intents and purposes, would already be dead.

I know you don't give a shit about the thing that would take your mum's place - totally understandable - but someone has to. And it would have rights of its own.


Don't think I'm being heartless. This whole topic is grey area and hypotheticals. And applies to all of us equally, though in the end may not affect us all equally. All the questions are difficult...

 

[TdC]

Oh, no, I don't think you're being heartless at all. In fact, I quite agree...on a rational level. On an emotional level, like I said, I really can't be arsed dealing with something that's not my mum. Said differently, being a son to a person I do not recognise. I don't think I can be that big-hearted and frankly I imagine I'll have to be forced into things.

I also understand your comment on my mum already being dead. Depends where the line is drawn ofc. It also depends how you class the mental decline. Yes, she, in the past 5 years or so, has become much more an old lady than she was before. She is scared of louts in the street. She wants police officers to be everywhere, because that makes her feel secure. She's not keen on travelling outside of her known area in the village she lives in. She's deeply and perhaps even irrationally worried something will happen to me or her remaining sisters. This from a woman who, in her 20's, rocked a Brigit Bardot hairdo, wore polka-dot dresses with large sunglasses and decided on a whim to leave Amsterdam and go and live in Spain...so she packed a bag and drove herself there in a VW Beetle...by herself. That aside, mentally she's still sharp enough to do her thing. She prolly works harder than I do...pff! Anyway, I'm dreading her eventual expiration. The instant she picks up a pen or a paintbrush and nothing comes out she's going to demand I put her in a home, either herself or through her life will. Then she's going to die. I'll be wrecked for a bit. Atm I live in the childish illusion that my mum's going to last forever. I told her that once and she laughed and told me not to be such a sentimental idiot. Then she gave me a chocolate cookie.

 

[Job]

Totally rejected...good call.

 

[Embattle]

Shame, back to the drawing board I guess.