Armsmen need something to survive

[Drav]

Is it just me, with Frontiers pretty much about to nerf the only thing that got armsmen RvR groups, that being determination, isnt it about time mythic who've been neglecting the armsman class for 2 and a half years finally reviewed us and gave us something to make us unique in Albion.

I mean as it stands now all armsmen might as well change there surnames to canon fodder because thats all we seem to be planned for in Frontiers.

2.5 years off nothing but the odd style nerfage, I mean 2.5 years of proof that double speccing for polearm/2H doesnt work in our favour but actually works against us, not the way mythic intended it to.

We finally had a small sense of hope with Frontiers, but..... OH NO! Mythic are tryna turn us into scouts with plate!!!! Snapshot is about as useful to an arms as Aug Acuity is.

Plus barricade our only group friendly RA is now available to enemy heavy tanks, enemy tanks who already can kick our asses anyway, plus on pendragon atm its SELF only, SELF only ffs!!!

Give us some hope mythic ffs....and telling us to re-roll isnt a solution, just delete the class if thats your answer pls, then I can go play something that treats its heavy tanks with some idea of balance instead of making us rps for pbaoing caster fotm's.

 

[Gorre]

just rumors but heard SoB only works when you stand still with nF
keep up the faith!

ill be chain stun proccing savages!

 

[eggy]

Here here, I totally agree.

My arms has officially gathered dust.

 

[[NO]Subedai]

ye it does seem a rather bland class.
they work well as bg tanks though.

 

[Kagato]

I loved soldiers barricade after trying it ( i had my doubts before hand) however its not worth the amount of points needed to buy it at the same level we have it at now in new frontiers, might as well just use the warlord ability for free instead.

However that aside I have said for a long while many things along the same lines, all it would take is for double-speccing to do what it should, and i'd be happy.
I don't want double-speccing removed, the theory behind it is sound, if only it did what it was meant to do, i.e negate damage variance, someone with 50 pole/2H - 50 thrust/slash/crush should have absolute 0 variance in there damage when hitting the same target under the same conditions, if theres a minor differance in there weapon to damage type spec then there should be a minor variance in damage, but still a steady high reflecting the advanced weapon spec. If on the other hand they have 50 pole/2 hand and only 12 slash/thrust or 0 crush then the damage should flucturate accordingly.

That is how double-specing should be, and if this was the case i'd be more then happy with the class, heck theres still a great many issues but i'd be happy the biggest bane of the class was solved at least.

As is it stand however new frontiers will put the final nail in the coffin lid for Armsman with our sole advantage of detirmination nerfed, but I wont give up not after all this time but its a very sad state of affairs and Mythics attitude on the subject disgusts me.

Key issues i'd like fixed from a pure polearmers point of view:

1) Double speccing fixed as stated above - NOT REMOVED.

2) Polearm styles fixed like so :

The last polearm adjustments were only half the job and left as many problems as it fixed, though I still detest the changes they never did what they were meant to.

Mangle - before most used Disabler after Crippling Blow as mangle was only the same damage for more endurance, this style needs an affect or more damage or better chance to hit bonus to make it worth using, the anytime snare on crippling blow makes it a better choice to spam in RvR siturations alot of the time.

Poleaxe - or otherwise known as the most idiotic style ever created, it is inferior in every single way to Defenders Rage, why would anyone want to use it after Rage? Its far less damage, less chance to hit, 4 times the endurance cost and has 0 negative effects on the enemy, wtf is the point? I'd rather just hit them with Rage again, to make things worse when they increased the damage on this style they still left the damage cap LOWER then what the old style Defenders Revenge used to be when that used to follow on from Rage, so the chain damage is still lower and the end cost still rediculously high despite it now being a 2nd in chain style rather then anytime. To fix it this style needs the end cost lowering dramatically (and i mean very very dramatically) with some sort of negative effect added to it to make it worth bothering with after using such a great style like Rage.

Defenders Aegis - polearms level 50 style, now reduced to being nothing but an alternative to use instead of Revenge, should for some reason you ever choose to snare the enemy rather then use a 9 second stun. Whilst not as totally useless as poleaxe this style deserves better then to simply be an alternative. The style itself is fine, even if the damage has been lowered now (bastards !) but it needs moving to a chain where its of more use, i'd personally recomend following it on as 3rd in chain from Defenders Revenge, so the opponent leaves the stun straight into a snare, if that is not possible then following it on from Mangle would be reasonable.

3) Crossbows, the poor range on crossbows was justified in the past by saying they did not want us treading on the toes of Scouts, seeing as archers now enjoy rapid fire, long shot, volley, and other bow related loving I cannot be bothered to look up is this really still an issue? Being interruptable and slow we will never be able to compare to archers so I do not see why we cannot have our range improved to make Crossbows more useful, as it stands by the time you have drawn the bow the enemy even if crippled can be out of your range.

My recomendation is that Crossbow range should increase with your spec in crossbow, 1 in crossbow gives the range we have it at now (about the same as smite by my judgement) taking Crossbow all the way to 50 would increase the Range to the same as longbows, the distance inbetween will scale with spec accordingly. That way the few people crazy enough to spec crossbow high will be rewarded to a small degree for the efforts yet still no where near uber or even half decent in most peoples opinions, yet the rest of the Armsman who have only left over points in Crossbow will still enjoy a slight range increase and will have benefit from RR and +Crossbow items reflected when they do use them.

This is not a key issue just something that I think would help most Armsman and benefit a few Armsman greatly. We have a speccable ranged attack it should have more use to someone daft or bored enough to actually spec it.

4) Class specific RR5 ability, whilst I actually don't mind the snap shot I can see why many dislike it compared to some of the uber abilties other classes get, I havent studied or even thought about this much but personally prefering passive abilities I believe something like 'advanced stoicism' would be cool, a passive ability that adds XX% to our natural Stoicism. That would give us more groupability value as our detirmination values will be higher in most cases to other tanks evne if we still fall behind in other areas like damage, and being a self only ability its not over powered.

Just my thoughts, its 5 am and I have been working night shift all night so if my post makes little sense, blame it on the lack of sleep, i'll fix it later.

 

[Asha]

wake up kagato, you were dreamin again ^^

 

[Sohan_thc]

Whee you all listen to Kagato :worthy:
Still i keep playing my arms tho , along with the "no love at all" section we are in.

 

[Qaewin]

The biggest problem for armsman are pallies. By rights they should be the gimp class along with thanes and champs, but no, they got end regen and so became albions golden love child while we got kicked to the curb. Towards the end the only rp's i really got were duoing with sorcs or solo.
Pallies are like eddie murphy in trading places.. they took what was ours, But theres no happy ending for us
Pallies are imposters and charlotens and I pretty much blame them for everything that is wrong with the world. They run around emain/odins/hw looking for 100% rezes to overright. Most of them have it timed to perfection. They won't talk to armsmen only to there other bumchum tank (mercs). There epic versions spam you with duel requests. They don't have to role a pve pally. There all roleplayers. Some have small shields. They have a weapon skill equivalent to george bush's IQ.
Mythic can fix arms, and they can do this by taking away paladins shield spec and out of spite plate and chants.

 

[Bometal]

The biggest problem for armsman are pallies. By rights they should be the gimp class along with thanes and champs, but no, they got end regen and so became albions golden love child while we got kicked to the curb. Towards the end the only rp's i really got were duoing with sorcs or solo.
Pallies are like eddie murphy in trading places.. they took what was ours, But theres no happy ending for us
Pallies are imposters and charlotens and I pretty much blame them for everything that is wrong with the world. They run around emain/odins/hw looking for 100% rezes to overright. Most of them have it timed to perfection. They won't talk to armsmen only to there other bumchum tank (mercs). There epic versions spam you with duel requests. They don't have to role a pve pally. There all roleplayers. Some have small shields. They have a weapon skill equivalent to george bush's IQ.
Mythic can fix arms, and they can do this by taking away paladins shield spec and out of spite plate and chants.

The whine is strong in this one

imo, they should fix armsman by giving em more weaponstyles to spec, after all they are masters of arms. So add staff and Flex to their toybox and it will be ok (Although it would be a tiny bit overpowered to have levi on a Plate tank wich can spec 50 Flex 50 Shield )

 

[Belomar]

Ouch, Qaewin, that's a lot of bitterness.

 

[Fixx]

Historical fact translated to X-bow ..

Wouldnt it be more fun if for once a weapon would follow its historical path and fit the role it had.
X-bow was never meant to be a longrange weapon like ex. lowbows the brits used in the wars against the franks. It was designed as an armorpenetrating equivalent to bows who could take out heavily armed "champions" (platewearers!) on horseback or on foot that could not be stopped by normal archerfire.
Its a fact that Mythic have already fucked up, by mixing the historical fact that armsmen would never carry a X-bow (would be unable to reload and/or fire it) due to the lack of flexibility of their armor.
(more correctly it would be chain / leather people that would have the X-bow)
But since its already Armsmen that have X-bow my suggestion would be:

Keep the short range on X-bow
Increase the dmg significantly.
Give Critshot ability on X-bow
Longer loading time

but then again what are the ods that they are gonne listen to us !?

Fixx

 

[gunner440]

bullshit

the armsman class needs a miracle

either that or a class respec to paladin/merc

 

[bahamot]

should add insta shot to armsman, but long time reloading

 

[Qaewin]

Its all well and good debateing how to 'fix' armsmen and its a subject i have given a lot of thought to. However, the more i think about it, the less i think it can be done.
In tanks groups; mercs are far superior offensively a 2h/pole arms is never gonna kill a shield tank, although they are effective against unguarded/bg'd opponents withought bt this is a situation that won't arise much anymore. Pre Toa mid grps (comparetively) ran with a warrior and the inclusion of an arms (although not optimal) could be done. After Toa most grps will/are running with a defensive tank (even mids) and armsmen just can't hurt them.
Defensively there is only ever going to be room for 1 s/s tank and this has to be the pally for end.

In hybred groups (1s/s tank another offensive bg'er) the offensive bg'er again has to be the merc for reasons above, there not the main bg'r but are there if needed. Once again pallys are there for end...no room for an arms

In caster groups I believe the arms has a strong case and I would argue for there inclusion, but many ppl disagree with me and they are high rr's in rvr guilds i.e. they are the ppl forming groups and if you can't convnce them..
Although NO run with cala hes rr10 and the only other caster groups around are gol who have greg and regtur and they are going to be better than most armsmen anyway.

So...
If mythic tweak us offensively and make double speccing do what its supposed to,we still won't be able to get past guard, hurt a shield tank and suffer at the hands of bt. Therefore merc>us still.

If mythic increase our stoicism the gap between pally det and ours will still be less than it is at the moment and we can't compete as it is so...
Offensively we will get loose b4 mercs on occasions but not be able to do any damage. With purge3 det isn't as important as it is atm at any rate.

Therefore in order to fix our class mythic have to make us better offensively than mercs or better defensively than pallies. Its the same in the other two realms with thanes and champs being in the same boat as us. Bearing in mind that we are a pur tank and can't be given any spells I can't see how mythic can do this without drastically rethinking the whole game. With darkaeoftankelot just finishing it would appear that our best days are behind us, and tbh they weren't all that good

Btw my previous post was a joke but the point that pallies have taken the only spot we could fill in a grp isn't.

And Belo, i'm surprised you didn't notice my bitterness b4..every word i've written in /gu over the passed xx has been laced with it

 

[Sarcon]

I know that arms have been nerfed badly, but why blame us? (pala's) isen't our fault that u have been nerfed, thats mythic's fault, and in frontier's everyone will get nerfed, including pala's (losing faith heal for example).
Arms need to get better not pala's/merc's that needs to get nerfed imo.

 

[Belomar]

Armsmen were never nerfed. It was just the rest of the game that moved ahead while they were standing still, and paladins were the ones who benefited the most from this. In the early days, I remember almost scoffing at paladins and preferring a "real tank" for your PvE group, i.e. an armsman (mercenaries were barely considered tanks at the time). The tables have turned now.

 

[Qaewin]

Mythic can fix arms, and they can do this by taking away paladins shield spec and out of spite plate and chants.

In case anyone took this literally i don't honestly beleive paladins should loose the ability to spec shield or loose plate or loose there chants. I don't hate paladins and i'm not bitter (well maybee slightly but you try playing an arms and not being ) My first char was a pala but i got bored of seeing lower lvl arms killling mobs that i couldn't and also having to body pull sucked so I rolled an arms ...my bad.

 

[Kagato]

Whilst it may be true mercs do more damage then pole/2hand, I totally disagree that a pole/2hand can't kill shield tanks, im sorry but I have little trouble killing enemy shielders and have won as many duels against paladins as I have lost even.
The problem is most armsman are to quick to admit defeat and start whining, yes we have serious issues but we can still hold our own and win despite our disadvantages, which in my opinion is more reason to be proud then winning when you have all the advantages.

 

[Kagato]

wake up kagato, you were dreamin again ^^

Was such a sweet dream though

 

[Drav]

Whilst it may be true mercs do more damage then pole/2hand, I totally disagree that a pole/2hand can't kill shield tanks, im sorry but I have little trouble killing enemy shielders and have won as many duels against paladins as I have lost even.
The problem is most armsman are to quick to admit defeat and start whining, yes we have serious issues but we can still hold our own and win despite our disadvantages, which in my opinion is more reason to be proud then winning when you have all the advantages.

I agree with that m8, we are still workable atm when there are no paladins/merc/reavers around, which is a joke tbh.

The whole idea of balance in DAoC is completely illogical, we have stealthers knocking around who can take out armsmen, as well as hybrids that can take out armsmen, its a joke.....

Hmmm balance would be - only person who could take out a heavy tank e.g. arms/merc, would be a caster that can shoot the crap out of us with uber spells, or another heavy tank...

As far as Paladins getting plate I never really did understand that, I mean if they get plate then why dont reavers? Or Mincers? Its just very strange.

Whats extremely obvious tho is that armsmen as a class are no longer gonna get groups, we bring nothing to a group that some other class cant do better.

Look at your basic group that comes together, they're always going to need a paladin for end/guard, mincer for speed, cleric for heals/buffs.... leaves 5 spaces for some dmg, now add another pala just for the extra guard/end bot, 2 mercs and a wiz.

Armsmen should NOT get defeated by Paladins, FACT! You guys are hybrids while we are Heavy Tanks, Armsmen just by the name are supposed to be the uber kick assers of melee, but we are not.....hmmmm.

I dont hate Paladins, well I do but I dont hate the ppl who play them, they have just taken the easy way out because Mythic has illogically un-balanced
the game in their favor. The paladin class should be the Nun to Albions Friar, not some armsmen replacement.

 

[Bracken]

Another issue is how 2H/pole gets a penalty against shield, while dw get a bonus. Its not quite a showstopper at the moment but if they removed the associated bonus/penalty against shield so that chance of being blocked was equal whether you are 2h/pole or dw and it would make a huge improvement. Fix that along with double speccing doing what it says on the can and a pure offensive armsman becomes a real option again.

 

[Drav]

https://forums.freddyshouse.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=434

Mwahaha just a little bit of revenge

 

[Kagato]

we have stealthers knocking around who can take out armsmen,

Havent met one yet, and believe me, I solo most nights trying to find one.

 

[Kagato]

Another issue is how 2H/pole gets a penalty against shield, while dw get a bonus. Its not quite a showstopper at the moment but if they removed the associated bonus/penalty against shield so that chance of being blocked was equal whether you are 2h/pole or dw and it would make a huge improvement. Fix that along with double speccing doing what it says on the can and a pure offensive armsman becomes a real option again.

As far as I know theres no penalty for 2 hand vs shield, only a bonus for Dual weilders against shields, we are neutral to it. The only problem is that we suffer more for endurance strain when we miss or get blocked, and if im not mistaken we get a bonus vs dual weilders, I havent checked though and really can't be bothered to look through the archives again.

 

[Vodkafairy]

i don't really understand why the armsman is such a bad class, there's hardly any difference between them and warriors/heroes?

only ones i can think of a are moose for heroes (like, woww!11! one button every 30 mins) and no double speccing needed for hero/warrior

but the doublespec thing isnt even that big of an issue with a spec like 50 pole/2h, 42 shield, 39 1h or am i wrong?

they just dont fit in alb groups atm, at least the kind that can actually kill something with even numbers, people prefer mercs over armsmen as offensive tanks..

i suppose a polearmsman would work pretty neat in an assist train together with merc, hits hard and anytime snare style ? Oo

problem is they're alot more vulnerable to guard, bg shield tanks, strafers etc etc :/

 

[Glacius]

Well i m a hibryd arms..and heck i like it compared to reaver at a few things...like doing 500+ dmg anytime..having det and 2400 HP + the plate..but.. i tought GOA will give us an ability similar to the ones that the Barbarian has in Diablo2 ..like a pbaoe shout that increases the defence or the % hp of our grp m8ts..hero has "Leader of the hunt " thingy..warriors got an ubah way of specing..and we got plates . i l lbe happy if they give us som better styles at 2h/polearm..like 7s stun from back or somethin..cause we r armsmans after all .

 

[Aussie]

i swear it, i could feel the emotions & frustrations from some ppl in their posts
adapt and reroll :>

 

[Vodkafairy]

giving armsmen shouts like that or fixing double spec issues still won't make them > merc and thus getting them in groups ;p

 

[Kagato]

i don't really understand why the armsman is such a bad class, there's hardly any difference between them and warriors/heroes?

only ones i can think of a are moose for heroes (like, woww!11! one button every 30 mins) and no double speccing needed for hero/warrior

but the doublespec thing isnt even that big of an issue with a spec like 50 pole/2h, 42 shield, 39 1h or am i wrong?

they just dont fit in alb groups atm, at least the kind that can actually kill something with even numbers, people prefer mercs over armsmen as offensive tanks..

i suppose a polearmsman would work pretty neat in an assist train together with merc, hits hard and anytime snare style ? Oo

problem is they're alot more vulnerable to guard, bg shield tanks, strafers etc etc :/

Its not being compared to heros and warriors thats the problem, more along the lines of being compared to mercs, albs other heavy tank.

Compared to heros i'd personally prefer a armsman anyway, they hit like pansies but are good defensive tanks, but we have paladins for that anyway, Warriors though have more hit points, more weaponskill and can switch from defensive to offensive with no draw backs and they now have the highest base damage, something we used to have.

However I agree, personally I love working with mercs in assist trains when I group, the combination of DW damage and front load anytime snare is sweet, however thinking of the great armsman population most still have trouble with grouping.

 

[Bracken]

As far as I know theres no penalty for 2 hand vs shield, only a bonus for Dual weilders against shields, we are neutral to it. The only problem is that we suffer more for endurance strain when we miss or get blocked, and if im not mistaken we get a bonus vs dual weilders, I havent checked though and really can't be bothered to look through the archives again.

Whichever it is, the bottom line is we get blocked significantly more than duel-wielders and this is one of the reasons they do better damage over time in an average fight....which is why we arent competitive offensely compared to a merc (without even comparing us to savages, zerkers and bms).