Are you religious?

[Raven]

lots of nothing, even more planets and suns, most likly something "intelligent" living on a few of those planets and a little more of nothing...

probably another FH forum somewhere with a similar thread

 

[Huntingtons]

lots of nothing, even more planets and suns, most likly something "intelligent" living on a few of those planets and a little more of nothing...

thats what im talking about. there exsist nothing, therefore you cannot say the soul isn't nothing dunno if its stupid.

 

[noblok]

If someone wants to believe in this higher force then do so, i dont care. Both options (the scientific one and the religious one) are possible. So ultimately we just have to figure it out by ourselves because theres no way we could know for sure.

Well, that's quite a change from your first post . This point of view is one I can even agree with. That is a point of view which leaves room for a God of the gaps. I can't agree with a view of God which is completely incompatible with science either, but as long as they don't interfere (too much) I'm perfectly alright with it.

Oh, and your mistake was that "everyone" is singular in English .

 

[Alliandre]

thats what im talking about. there exsist nothing, therefore you cannot say the soul isn't nothing dunno if its stupid.

Outer space is amazing to be honest. I mean, we're not capable of living there for a start, so it's an awesome chance to find things which we may never find on earth.

But, I think the point you are getting at is that you feel you are more significant than what is out there. The problem is, there are two different views on this (as always seems to be the case). You are looking at life from what is commonly called by philosophers as the view from the inside.

From the inside, we are a buddle full of significance. A dream is a great way to portray this. Last night for example, I was in a romantic entanglement with a partner of my choice. When I was having this dream, it certainly seemed as if I was achieving something. Precisely what was affected by how long it took for me to wake up and be disappointed. This is the view from the inside. In dreams, the move the the sublime to the ridiculous is easily achieved. Say for example I was dreaming on a packed train station. The people in the train station know your not achieving anything except a huge amount of embarrasment when you wake up. I'm just the pervert who they'll forget about when they get on the train. But I am, to myself, a core of significance.

The story of the inside may differ from person to person (afterall, not everyone has dreams like that in a train station), but the basic line of thought is the same. You are significant.

But look at it from alien Bob's point of view. Bob lives two hundred trillion miles away. As a species to Bob we are finite and partial creatures, inhabiting an inremarkable planet in an unremarkable galaxy. We have been around for an infinitesimally small proportion of the life of the universe, and even the best estimates for our continuation don't give us to much longer in the cosmic scale of things. None of us, not even the cleverest, really understands where we came from - the origin of the universe we inhabit is necessarily a mystery to us. And, as far as we can tell, the fate of this universe we inhabit is heat death. After this there will (apparently) be no life, no light and no change, forever.

Individually each one of us is a product of forces we did not choose, and which we only dimly understand. We were born at a time and of parents we did not choose. We were, therefore, bequeathed a certain genetic inheritance over which we have no control but which does, to a significant extent, have control over us. This inheritance determines, in part, the illnesses to which we are susceptible, and the limits of our intellectual, athletic and moral capacities. Not totally, maybe, but enough. And we find ourselves born into an environment that will fill in whatever slack is left over by our genetic endowment, and environment that, again, we did not choose and over which we have little control, at least in our crucial formative years. The way we are, and what we do, are the results of our genes and our environment that, together, exert an influence over us of which we have only the most nebulous understanding.

These two stories don't match. How can we be significant and unsignificant? I believe we are significant as far as we're concerned. I believe that religion is a way of justifying our significance, but it is way to far fetched based on the evidence I see for it to actually be real.

 

[Ingafgrinn Macabre]

http://www.ministerturnsatheist.org/

 

[Huntingtons]

Alliandre:

i wasnt saying what i belive, but i merelyt misunderstood your previous post

 

[tris-]

Read the book and think and tell your opinions again.
Some of you who come tell about god and jesus haven't even read a chapter of that book.

you didnt answer my question so why does it matter what weve done.

 

[Alliandre]

Alliandre:

i wasnt saying what i belive, but i merelyt misunderstood your previous post

Ah. Space technically has a shape, etc. It isn't completely nothing as far as I know. It has a shape to be in. It has a physical form (though to be honest, I don't have much of a clue about what that form is, other than it's big and black).

I think I misunderstood you more than the other way round

 

[noblok]

http://www.ministerturnsatheist.org/

He was a member of a fundamentalist sect. His view on religion is obviously twisted.

Anyway, I believe this explains it best:

Atheism is not for everyone, but to those few who demand that the world make rational sense and need to find a logically coherent way to view the madness and chaos in which we have come to exist. (JB)

A "god of the gaps"-view is not for everyone, but to those few who demand that the world is created by a Supreme Being and need to find a satisfying explanation for the perfectly fitting structures in which we have come to exist.

In the end it's a personal matter. Some people cannot accept that there isn't something greater which created all this and some people can't accept that there's anything which can't be proven. As long as the religious metaphysical claims don't contradict science, there shouldn't be any problems.

 

[leviathane]

Alliandre - i wonder, whats in outer space?

well if you watched futurama you'd know god is xD he's a big collection of stars.

 

[Huntingtons]

well if you watched futurama you'd know god is xD he's a big collection of stars.

he's quite cool as well

(Futurama S03E20 - Godfellas)

 

[Coldbeard]

I'm more of an agnostic, but went for the "Other" option because I am not sure about my doubts. I don't exclude there being something greater than ourselves or another power superior to everything, but I don't feel strongly about any of this either.

I think most people have a basic portion of 'faith' in them, or a need to believe in something superior to themselves and to a greater power. That being said, I think the religions are total hoax. Pure atheism is maybe even more artificial than believing because you are denying a basic instinct or need.

A long time ago someone posted something about Evolutionism shaped as a conversation between a human and 'god', which I found quite interesting.

My personal opinion anyways.

 

[DocWolfe]

I was brought up with a religious background but I thought at the age of 14 what's the point in devoting your time to something you never get the benefit of? In the time spent at church I would prefer to be bettering my self, may it be sociably, physically or mentally.

I also know exactly what happens when I die... its game over there's nothing else... there's nothing after death. I am not afraid of this either... but a lot of people are, which is why they suddenly decide that its time to find god when they're diagnosed with cancer or leukaemia or whatever.

I would prefer to live for myself and my own expectations, and have my own values of right and wrong rather than live up to some old book that tells me that having sex before marriage is bad or all women must wear full body veils. Life is fully of great things why spoil them by covering it up or hiding it. Morality and religion do not go hand in hand...

The reason I dont go around killing people is because I dont really fancy the idea of someone doing the same to me... so I live by the rule that I treat others in the way I would like to be treated.

I actually fucking enjoy life and feeling sad is just a waste of time... when you could be doing so much more to improve your quality of life.

 

[Lamp]

The reason I dont go around killing people is because I dont really fancy the idea of someone doing the same to me...

As Brooke Shields once put it, "when you die, you lose a very important part of your life".

 

[Roalith]

To quote Bill Hicks:

Today a young man on acid realised all matter is only energy condensed to a slow vibration, that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively. There is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we're the imagination of ourselves. Here's Tom with the weather!

 

[Ati]

Believe in a God, what have you got to loose?

More so, what do you have to gain from not believing, if he/she/it does exist then your going to hell
Some gain mental well-being from a belief.

Dont see how being non-conformist and not believing anything is going to benefit you in anyway, even if its Jedi, atleast you have something to look towards.

With religion, there are wars.
Without, there is nothing to strive towards? What the fuck is the point in life, to become worm food? (no dis-respect)

I guess people in their own way worship their own little gods, their communities and their fotm ideas when they state "there is no god, god couldnt exist, science ftw". Ask any famous scientist "Does God exist?", know what their answer would be?

"... I don't know!"

I do not see any harm in believing in something

Pick a religion, theres plenty there, if you find yourself getting stressed alot try one that encourages chanting or meditation. If you prefer singing etc etc.

Just no Scientolligy ;o you cant have both + Stargate SG1 lolzords

 

[DocWolfe]

Believe in a God, what have you got to loose?

More so, what do you have to gain from not believing, if he/she/it does exist then your going to hell
Some gain mental well-being from a belief.

Dont see how being non-conformist and not believing anything is going to benefit you in anyway, even if its Jedi, atleast you have something to look towards.

With religion, there are wars.
Without, there is nothing to strive towards? What the fuck is the point in life, to become worm food? (no dis-respect)

I guess people in their own way worship their own little gods, their communities and their fotm ideas when they state "there is no god, god couldnt exist, science ftw". Ask any famous scientist "Does God exist?", know what their answer would be?

"... I don't know!"

I do not see any harm in believing in something

Pick a religion, theres plenty there, if you find yourself getting stressed alot try one that encourages chanting or meditation. If you prefer singing etc etc.

Just no Scientolligy ;o you cant have both + Stargate SG1 lolzords

I strive toward personal improvement and the continuation and betterment of the human race.

 

[Ati]

Read the book and think and tell your opinions again.
Some of you who come tell about god and jesus haven't even read a chapter of that book.

I have,

"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear ... "

~1 John 4:18~


"And be ye kind one to another, tender-hearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you."

~Ephesians 4:32~


"We love Him because He first loved us."

~1 John 4:9-10~ 


   "Love is patient, love is kind,
    Love does not insist on its own way.
    Love bears all things, believes all things,
    Hopes all things, endures all things.
    Love never fails."
     
 Corinthians 13:4-8

How on earth, are these bad things to believe.

I have taken christianity as an example here, and i can assure you most religions teach about love in a similar way.

Resources used: The Lord's Holy Bible (lolduh?)

 

[Ati]

I strive toward personal improvement and the continuation and betterment of the human race.

make a religion, others can do the same then.

two heads are better than one

 

[Roalith]

Is there a point to my act? I would say there is. I have to.

The world is like a ride at an amusement park, and when you choose to go on it you think it's real, cos that's how powerful our minds are, and the ride goes up and down and around and around. It has thrills and chills and it's very brightly coloured and it's very loud, and it's fun for a while.

Some people have been on the ride for a long time, and they begin to question; "Is this real? Or is this just a ride?". And other people have remembered, and they come back to us and they say "Hey, don't worry, don't be afraid, ever, because - it's just a ride!"

And we: Kill those people! "Haha! Shut him up! We have a lot invested in this ride! Shut him up!! Look at my furrows of worry! Look at my big bank account! And my family! This has to be real!"

It's just a ride. But we always kill those good guys who tell us that, you ever notice that? And let the demons run amok? But it doesn't matter, because: it's just a ride! And we can change it any time we want. It's only a choice. No effort, no work, no job, no savings of money, a choice, right now, between fear and love. The eyes of fear want you to put bigger locks on your doors, buy more guns, close yourself off. The eyes of love instead see all of us as one. Here's what we can do to change the world right now, to a better ride.

Take all that money we spend on weapons and defense each year and instead spend it feeding, clothing, educating the poor of the world which it would many times over, not one human being excluded, and we can explore space, together, both inner and outer, forever, in peace.

Thank you very much, you've been great, hope you enjoyed it. London! You're fantastic!

Yes, we enjoyed it Bill.

For anyone that wants to watch the full clip, it's available on Youtube. Run a search for "Bill Hicks Ch4 Uk Uncut Revelations". Worth starting from the first, but if you just want to catch that last clip I quoted watch 8 of 8.

 

[Roalith]

Believe in a God, what have you got to loose?

The baggage associated with every religion in existence? Crusades, fatwahs, jihads, holocausts, suppression of truth, murder of innocents, torture?

At least, that'd be my answer to that question in relation to pretty much any existing religion. Even Buddhism has a fair share of blood on its hands.

Does not mean to say I don't believe in a God, mind. Inasmuch as everything is God and everything is the same, when you break it down to a molecular level scientifically - we're all comprised of quarks, atoms, molecules, cells, galaxies are all comprised of planets, stars, solar systems, nebula, and guess what? The universe is comprised of the galaxies. What's beyond the universe? Is the universe the end? Is the universe God?

 

[haarewin]

personally, i don't believe in a god or anything higher being.
i like to think of myself as a moral person and i wouldn't steal or kill regardless of a religous viewpoint because those actions are clearly wrong.

 

[Ati]

The baggage associated with every religion in existence? Crusades, fatwahs, jihads, holocausts, suppression of truth, murder of innocents, torture?

At least, that'd be my answer to that question in relation to pretty much any existing religion. Even Buddhism has a fair share of blood on its hands.

Does not mean to say I don't believe in a God, mind. Inasmuch as everything is God and everything is the same, when you break it down to a molecular level scientifically - we're all comprised of quarks, atoms, molecules, cells, galaxies are all comprised of planets, stars, solar systems, nebula, and guess what? The universe is comprised of the galaxies. What's beyond the universe? Is the universe the end? Is the universe God?

Those things are not caused by the religions, just the people at the heads of them.

 

[Ingafgrinn Macabre]

Believe in a God, what have you got to loose?

More so, what do you have to gain from not believing, if he/she/it does exist then your going to hell

What if the aztec god is the real god?
What if Allah is the real god?
What if Buddha is the real god?
What if Ra is the real god?

If any of the other gods happen to be real, and yours isn't... you're going to hell anyway.
Chances of you picking the correct god to take for real is so infinately small, that I'd rather believe in what I see and experience, and so far I haven't seen any proof of any deity.

Also, as some people claim that god must exist to create the universe.... If that's the case, who created god?

Towards the mentioning of earth being inhabitable, if earth hadn't been in this exact spot, but venus was and we ended up there, then venus might've been inhabitable with seas and all.
The chance of a planet capable of supporting life coming into existance is very small indeed, but the universe is very very very big, and there are a multitude of stars out there just like our sun, probably with planets orbiting them just like earth.

 

[Congax]

I myself prefer the comfort and rather symbolic meanings of rituals and certain patterns. I realise that I need more then just rationalisation to explain the world we currently live in. Some might consider it science, for others it might be the religion yet for myself ...

I don't really know so I'll have to admit the answer is unknown to myself. It may be that the answer lies somewhere in between or that there really is no answer. The only people who can actually answer the question are dead and most likely buried. Fat chance they'll tell us.

 

[Ati]

Also, as some people claim that god must exist to create the universe.... If that's the case, who created god?

I used to feel the same way, but one day i just thought: You know what? fuck it, if i can meditate and get a shot at haven then why not?

This stupid question about the universe ending and god being created by whom, is frankly un-answerable.

You should concider it unanswerable forever and forget that question, it will only drive you insane as it has done others.

Space is a very messed up place, its warped. There can be no end to something that has no begining, and no middle?

I quote:

Sophocles 428 BC

"We are tangled in the notted mesh of causes."


Space is warped and completely un-comprehendable. The world would be better concentrating on lasting as long as it possible can. As it will end in a tiny blip. Not like the rest of the universe is going to end with us now is it?

 

[Sharma]

Believe in a God, what have you got to loose?

My pride and personal dignity?

I guess I always could join a religion, that means if I needed to piss and moan about something to the world I could use my religion as a basis for it.

Seems to be the way to go these days.

 

[Ati]

My pride and personal dignity?

How on earth are you loosing your "Pride and personal dignity" by meditating, or chanting.

I would shake you if I was with you now and tell you to grow up. You loose your pride and personal dignity every day when you have to get dressed in a suit like everyone else and go and learn from some old guy standing infront of you who barely knows what he is talking about or sit at a desk typing in numbers for some rich "god" sitting in his office sipping champagne.

This non-conformist attitude is quite sad in my opinion. I would rather have something to conforn to than nothing to look forward to. Perhaps your nice wife/house/familly and a car? What the hell would you settle for that for when there is the 1/100000000000th possibility that you may get to stay with them all for eternity?

though it pains me to say this, I think that everyone, in their last few seconds alive on earth. If they know that their death is dawning on them. Pray for an extra few seconds.

Why wait till then?

Its all okay saying life isnt worth 30seconds to reflect every day. But when you realise how precious it is, and how much you wish it would carry on for eternity you wish that you had looked forward to this. Instead of spending your last moments in sorrow you would spend them in happyness, knowing that possibly, if you were lucky, you might...just might.
Get there

So none of this pride rubbish, sorry if I offend you with this. But im sure you've dont much worse things to harm your pride drunk than you could do saying a prayer?


I'm not a preacher, not devout.
But I still believe that theres a posibility.

 

[Chronictank]

wow lots of posts,

My understanding of Chronictank's post. Please correct me if I misunderstood you.

1. Earth
The odds of our planet turning out to be what it is now are so ridiculously low, it's hard to believe there wasn't a helping hand.

Will get to this later

2. Man and evolution:
Evolution isn't denied. However, there seems to be an inexplainable 'gap' in the evolution. At a certain point in time, some creatures appeared to have a 'mind' (free will, if you want). This can be explained by a deity who imbued those creatures with a mind (or a soul, to use a less fashionable word).

nono, sorry its prolly me explaining badly.
I am not saying a deity gave them anything (but this i up for interpretation)
i am saying a deity gave them a helping hand, you are very very right, evolution to this day has not been able to explain conclusively how a homosapian jumps that gap. I personally believe a "higher power" for a better word gave use a little kick, be it a genetic tweak or a growth hormone, something happened to very rapidly increase the rate of evolution and provide us with the ability for transient thought

However! religion is more than believing in a higher force that created the universe. I for one do not believe that there was a guy 2000 years ago who could turn water in to wine and cure all sickness, for example. Correct me if im wrong, Jesus (and his little miracles) are a big part of christianity. (Other religions have their miracle makers aswell.)

Now uh..... do you actually believe that?

No, i believe humans over time have changed the message to a literal.
If jesus (who did exist it has been proven), had the ability to cure diseases would they not be seen as miracles to people who couldnt find a way to?
If i went to a society so iscolated from the modern world with asprin do you not think it would be regarded as a miracle cure?
I think christianity is probably the worst example to use when trying to prove "religion" in general wrong, because the original message is very diluted in years of interpretation which has eventually changed to what we see today.
You, me and the vast majority people will never know the original message as the last known original copy of the bible is locked away in the vatican vault
If this is all you are basing your opinions on rather than actually looking around and digging up info, you are basing all your assumptions on "incorrect" and assumed results.

Well no i cant, but can YOU prove that he did?

Yes in a way actually, i can give reasonable doubt on the statement "he doesnt exist" i will get onto it later
As of yet you have given no real justification for your belief other than you decided one day that you would believe what you believe, yet you call those who follow a religion fools, a tad hypocritical dont you think?

It's nice to see someone else who has put some thought into the matter of religion, even if they disagree with me. Just to make it clear, I haven't read the Qu'ran, but in most cases, the general theories behind religion are the same.

Couldnt agree more with you mate, its a breath of fresh air when someone comes out with a argument they have put thought into

Well, let's start off with the chances of the world thing. This can easily be refuted. This is based on a belief that the world is amazingly perfect. That it is the best it could have been. But this is incredibly false.

Actually i was thinking more of things in general, ill try explain myself better by using a analogy.
We as humans have many wild life reserves, we dont directly control the actions of the animals in it but we do shape the landscape within and in a sense control their enviroment.
This is what i am getting at, there is significant proof that the universe was created and "moulded" in a somewhat organised fashion all the way down to the inner working of our planet
There is a very strong correlation in our solar system (this was mapped by a german dude named Immanuel Kant, if you search his theories in google you will get the following)

Spoiler

Among the many observed properties of our Solar System, 7 stand out most boldly:

1. Each planet is relatively isolated in space, none of them being bunched together; each planet (out to Saturn anyway and skipping the asteroid belt) resides roughly twice as far from the Sun as its next inward neighbor, implying a certain geometric harmony—the kind of order and elegance alluded to earlier.

2. The orbits of the planets describe nearly perfect circles, with only two exceptions; Mercury’s noticeable elliptical orbit is surely caused by this innermost planet’s proximity to the neighboring Sun, while Pluto’s more pronounced eccentricity likely results from this outermost planet being more an asteroidal rock than a genuine planet.

3. The orbits of the planets all lie in nearly the same plane, Earth’s such plane being called the “ecliptic”; each of the planes swept out by the planets’ orbits aligns with the others to within a few arc degrees (excepting again Mercury and Pluto), the whole system of planets having the shape of a rather flat disk.

4. The direction in which the planets orbit the Sun is the same in which the Sun rotates on its axis (counterclockwise from terrestrial north); virtually all the angular momentum in the Solar System—the planets’ orbits and the Sun’s spin—seems systematized, again implying a high degree of unison.

5. The direction in which most planets rotate on their axes also mimics that of the Sun’s spin (again counterclockwise); the two exceptions are Venus, which spins oppositely (retrograde), and Uranus, whose poles are tipped over so as to lie in the plane of its own orbit. (Pluto might also be out of bounds—again.)

6. Most of the known moons revolve about their parent planets in the same direction as the planets rotate on their axes; some moons, like those associated with Jupiter, resemble miniature Solar Systems, revolving about their parent planet in roughly the same plane as the planet’s equator, and once more evincing unison throughout our planetary system.

7. The Solar System is highly differentiated; the inner, Terrestrial Planets are characterized by small sizes, rocky makeup, high densities, moderate atmospheres, slow rotations, and few or no moons and rings, whereas the outer, Jovian Planets have large sizes, gaseous makeup, low densities, thick atmospheres, rapid rotations, and many moons and rings.

All these observed properties, when taken together, clearly denote a high degree of order within our Solar System. Although much diversity prevails among individual planets and moons, the whole ensemble is apparently not a random assortment of objects spinning and orbiting this way or that. It hardly seems possible that the Solar System is a pickup team, amassed by the slow accumulation of already-fashioned interstellar bodies casually captured by our Sun over the course of billions of years. The overall architecture of our Solar System is too neat and tidy, and the ages of its members too uniform, to be the result of chaotic events or haphazard circumstances. All signs point toward a single formation, the product of an ancient but one-time event not quite 5 billion years ago.

This ofc is only one theory,
science after all is just theories based on observation

Evolution has left us with a number of different useless things in our body. I don't know any specific examples, but ask any good biologist and I'm sure they could point out a few things that serve no purpose in our body.

Nono, i didnt mean that at all,
You come onto this in a second, but i dont believe god made us as we are but instead initiated the biological process between the very aparent gap which appears when you research the void science cant at the moment fill between homo sapian and human

The world could have turned out with beings that put us to shame. The world could have turned into a firey ball of mush. Like all things in the universe, there are "chances" (I'm a firm believer in determinism. Cause and results led up to everything, leading back forever) of things going either way. Our prediction of the possibility of that happening may make it look extremely remote, but every other possibility was just as remote, looking at it on the basis of chance.

This is a very valid point, the universe could have existed out of chance.
But its logical structure surely puts that into question aswell as the fact that significant stages are mentioned in a book over a thousand years old we are discovering today with deep space probes, this would be impossible for someone when the qu'ran was written to know. See later i want to examine the rest of your post first

One of your points shows a belief in an existence of a "soul". You discuss this a little later on in your post. But, I don't believe a "soul" can exist. I mean, what is a soul anyway? Well, most seem to agree that a soul is an entirely non-physical thing which makes us specifically human. Where does this non-physical thing reside then? This thing that makes us human?

Energy has no mass, its non-physical, it cannot be seen yet it is there.
This is proven by the fact that photons have no mass but contain energy, they can be converted to mass but dont necessarily have it.
This was proved a couple of years ago, that mass doesnt always have to be linked to energy

Energy cannot be destroyed only transfered from one form to another.
I think this is exactly what happens when a human dies, your "soul"
Just because we have no way of measuring it at the moment doesnt mean it does not exist,
following the 1st law of thermodynamics, there has to be a soul or there would be no balance in the conservation of energy as energy has to go somewhere.
I think it is very feasible that a matter we havent experienced before (dark matter was discovered for example when scientists previously thought it impossible for it to exist)/some form of energy could be part of your "spiritual equivalent"

Finally, to add a point of my own, if God, Allah, whatever is omniscient and omnipotent, is he/she/it not a part of everything, including us, the trees, and, quite literally, everything? Adding to this point of my rebuttal of the non-physical (the soul) above, this means that God is simply a fancy way of saying the everything. So "he" could not speak to us, or communicate to us except in the way that everything works. This is not religion, and it doesn't involve "giving teh sweet luv" to an oak tree. It just involves just realising everything is connected in some way or another. And that, need not involve religion at all.

i cant really comment on other religions for the point i made in my original post, but i am pretty sure it doesnt say in the qu'ran anywhere that god is everything.

 

[Boni]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Sphagetti_Monster

Bow down and worship the great spaghetti monster, and all his noodley apendages!