Are you religious?

[Naetha]

Following on from my philosophical ponderings...

And by God, I mean any deity whether its Allah, a supreme being, whatever.

Oh, and please no baseless religion-bashing, just constructive discussion.

If you're going to criticise someone, at least give a logical reasoning to your criticism

 

[Gorbachioo]

I have said this many times before, and i will say it again !


_Everyone_who_believe_in_god_are_stupid_


If i get any whines i might write something a bit more constructive, but that will do for now. :touch:

 

[noblok]

_Everyone_who_believe_in_god_are_stupid_

_Everyone_who_makes_grammatical_mistakes_ while_calling_others_stupid_is_stupid_

Now write something constructive .

 

[tris-]

I have said this many times before, and i will say it again !


_Everyone_who_believe_in_god_are_stupid_


If i get any whines i might write something a bit more constructive, but that will do for now. :touch:

thats what i always thought but how about this -

much of science is theory. you believe it anyway. so therfore your putting some amount of belief into science.

god, in effect, is a theory. people believe in it anyway.

you could say both science and god are nearly the same. in that they require belief and some people will believe one or the other. they are both used to explain things around us. some people become scientists to try make the science more than a theory. some people study religion to make it more than a theory.

so ye, how about that more constructive reply. as it is right now i cant really agree with what you are saying.

 

[yaruar]

The problem with science is that it can only naswer half the questions that the human psyche asks.

Science is all about the logical nuts and bolts of how something happens, the actions, reactions and frequencies of the results.
What it fails to answer is the question as to why something happens when and how it does. The classic example is a person walking down a path and stubbing his toe. Statistics might show that 1 time in 100 a person stubs his toe on the path. However the human mind seems hard wired into questioning why it happened to that person that time......

 

[tris-]

However the human mind seems hard wired into questioning why it happened to that person that time......

i guess part of what makes us human is how we love to question anything and everything. somethings like that i explain with pre determinism.

 

[Jai13]

science can be tested to show that something happens, while imo religion is to give something a reason. for example we didnt know how the world began so someone made it.

 

[pip]

Dam if god made the universe he must of had some mean ladders to get from 1 planet to the next and a lot of hardcore

 

[noblok]

I have never understood agnosticism. How can you not be sure?

Personally I'm an atheist. That means that in my everyday life I assume there exists no such thing as a god. I simply can not believe it. The proof isn't solid enough for me. I don't see it, if you catch my drift. However, in a theoretical discussion I will assume an agnostic point of view, as I don't find the proof that he doesn't exist strong enough to rule out the possibility either.

 

[tris-]

science can be tested to show that something happens, while imo religion is to give something a reason. for example we didnt know how the world began so someone made it.

that doesnt apply to all of science.

 

[Chronictank]

_Everyone_who_believe_in_god_are_stupid_

_Everyone_who_does_not_believe_in_god_is_stupid_

wow i have converted the masses using one sentence without any form of constructive discussion. People like you annoy the hell out of me because a person on that sort of mindset are exactly the time of people who can easily be influenced into doing things such as being suicide bombers or joining the BNP.


Back on topic;
Alot of this is shamelessly stolen from my A level RE project
I personally believe in a "god", i am not ashamed of admiting it. Why? because i did my own research on the matter and came to my own conclusions. I have always been brought up in a household where i have been encouraged to find out and question things, religion being no exception

Why? well its pretty simple really, i look at the world around me, and the things written in the "religious" books and then take a look at what is there and see things which i or many scientists cannot explain even now.

One of the major argument points on the matter is the fact that the universe exists, but to explain the point i will focus on the planet earth
If you soley believe in science, you believe that it was "luck" (for lack of a better word) that you even exist.
The big bang happened, but the probability of there being the exact right ammount of fuel and matter to create out solar system is minute, furthermore the earth is situated exactly in the right orbit around the sun to support life (any closer and it would be too hot, and further and it would be too cold, supported by the conditions on Mars and Venus which also is put down to chance since when the resultant explosion happened the bodies of the planets were "thrown" out and then recaptured by the sun's gravity.
The window for a planet supporting life is also tiny (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planetary_habitability#A_stable_habitable_zone)
the window for life existing is a matter of 10's of degrees.
No other planet we have found so far is found to support life in this galaxy or the next.
Most religions believe that there was some form of "higher power" who handed a helping hand in whatever way to make the earth habitable.

The next main point of discussion and most argued about is how we got here,
science supports the theory of evolution,
religion supports the theory of creationism(sp?).
Rather than explore this in itself i will try expalin my pov on the whole thing of religious scriptures in general.

I believe that there is only really 1 "holy text" that i regard as a discussion point, simply because its the only one (in my limited knowledge) that hasnt be altered by man so to speak and that is the qu'ran which has been kept in its original state (most likely because the religion is effectively still in its infancy, but only time will tell)
I am not disrespecting any other faith/religion but the fact of the matter is that over the years the other major texts (paganism exists in many very different forms each with its own "ruleset", the bible has been changed in ways of translation and rewording thoughout the years, similarly has the To'rah(sp?)).
So following that reasoning this is the closest text in its original form which i can take direct translations from without someone elses interpretation of it, so once again before people get excited i am not disrespecting any other religion i am just focusing on one otherwise we would be here all night.

Now that thats out the way lets get back on topic,
If you were a "god" how would you explain complicated concepts such as the solar system, medicine, pharmacy, society to people who have no idea of those things previously?
Before you laugh, think about it for more than half the second it takes you to post some sort of flame which i subsequently will most likely ignore anyway.
I mean it took us about 200 years to work out the world was round!
Personally i think religion is a ingenious teaching tool in explaining concepts which otherwise primitive minds would be unable to grasp seeing as at the time we very likely are hitting each other over the head with the biggest branch we can find (nothing much changes then ><)

In the qu'ran it doesn't say humans were created on earth,
it actually says that Adam & Eve were created in Heaven. When they disobeyed God, He expelled them from Heaven down to Earth

We [Allah] said: "O Adam! Dwell with your wife in Heaven; and eat anything you like, but do not approach this tree, or else you would become transgressors." 36 After this, Satan made them slip from it (Heaven), and got them out of the state in which they had been. We [Allah] said: "Get down all of you (Adam, Eve and Satan), and let enmity be among you; Let Earth be your dwelling place and your means of livelihood for a time."

It also doesnt say humans were the first on the planet, it says they came here and became the "successors", of the planet

The Lord said to the angels: "I will create a successor on Earth." They said: "How do You install someone one who makes mischief and sheds blood? While we praise your mercy and glorify (Your Name)?"; He said: "I know what you do not know."

So regardless of what x religious cleric tells you, the qu'ran itself says that the humans werent here first, science supports this in the form of dinosaurs etc...
Lets look a little more into the theory of evolution,
the common belief is that humans evolved from homosapians,
this is in parallel to what it says in the qu'ran (and the dead sea scrolls aswell as pagan mythology afaik i lost the quote as i cant read my own writing)
that humans did exist, but didnt have "souls", so a human can be "alive" in the sense of breating, eating etc but not posess all the human traits we have today (i.e. have our dna but not our personality traits)

It is Allah who takes the souls (of men) at death; and those that did not die, during their sleep. Those on whom He has passed the decree of death, He keeps back, but the rest He sends (to their bodies) for a term appointed. These are Signs for those who reflect.

Here comes the clincher, despite what most muslims believe the qu'ran actually says that Adam and Eve were still in heaven when homosapians existed,
their "souls" were only put on heaven later furthermore it pushes the threory that adam and eve were not magically transported to earth, but instead only when homo sapiens became transient that they had their souls and were regarded as humans.
It later says that if god wishes he can make out descendants non human,
this is where a common mistake is quoted,

Your Lord, the Rich and Merciful, if He wishes, can discard you and succeed you with "WHATEVER" He wishes; Just like He created you from the seed of another clan. Islam evolution creation, Islam evolution creation, Islam evolution creation, Islam evolution creation

The qu'ran uses the word "ma", in arabic this word is translated literally as the word "what", in the context of the statement "whatever", this word in arabic is strictly reserved for creatures that are non-human.

more tomorow
I am cheating a bit as i have researched all this before,
so i will only post one part at a time feel free to kick holes into it ill do my best to justify my theories

 

[noblok]

My understanding of Chronictank's post. Please correct me if I misunderstood you.

1. Earth
The odds of our planet turning out to be what it is now are so ridiculously low, it's hard to believe there wasn't a helping hand.

2. Man and evolution:
Evolution isn't denied. However, there seems to be an inexplainable 'gap' in the evolution. At a certain point in time, some creatures appeared to have a 'mind' (free will, if you want). This can be explained by a deity who imbued those creatures with a mind (or a soul, to use a less fashionable word).

 

[Saggy]

Personally I think believing in God(s) is a healthy and normal thing - as long as you keep the faith as a on/off thing and dont follow some pre-made religion while bashing other religions. Faith is a personal thing, no priest or whatever can or should even try to "teach" such things.

 

[~Latency~]

Some things seem too unbelieveable and unlikely to be explained by science, I believe it was more than just "luck" that everything worked out so perfectly, but I think that any being of "higher power" is long dead now and that heaven + hell is just a belief for people who can't accept death is the end.

 

[Ahtlehson]

_Everyone_who_believe_in_god_are_stupid_

EDIT: Why couldn't someone who believes in god be intelligent or wise?
Let me ask, do you know what stupid means?

There was a BIG BOOM. Yeah for sure.. Lets put dynamite into old computer and explode it and there is brand new computer!

If you put computer in parts into a box and shake it for 1.000.000 years there is a brand new computer.. once again.

If you live for 100 years, yes.. There is evolution. You grow beard, hair, lenght and stomach. That's evolution.

Back to topic:
I am religious

 

[tris-]

ahtlehson. i wonder if you know the difference between a computer part and elements. obviously there was more to it than just elements, but lets keep it somple. cos if you did you probably wouldnt of used that as a defence against the big bang.

 

[Gorbachioo]

Ok so i did get some whine!

This is how i see it: Is there a higher force? Maybe. We dont know that. Its Definately possible. BUT! Just because its possible doesnt mean that its true.

If someone wants to believe in this higher force then do so, i dont care. Both options (the scientific one and the religious one) are possible. So ultimately we just have to figure it out by ourselves because theres no way we could know for sure.

However! religion is more than believing in a higher force that created the universe. I for one do not believe that there was a guy 2000 years ago who could turn water in to wine and cure all sickness, for example. Correct me if im wrong, Jesus (and his little miracles) are a big part of christianity. (Other religions have their miracle makers aswell.)

Now uh..... do you actually believe that?

Someone will probably say "can you prove that he didnt do all those things?"

Well no i cant, but can YOU prove that he did? no you cant. So again, just because its """"""possible""""" (not really no, im just trying to please everyone)
doesnt mean it did happen.

Religion is about explaining unknown things with other unknown things. Nothing else. Most of the things in religion are "possible", but theres absolutely no evidence to back it up. So again, just because its possible, it doesnt mean that its true.


oh and btw, what was wrong with the sentence? I keep looking at it but i dont see any mistake there ;p (im not english!)

If you feel like nagging about some grammar mistakes in the text again then bugger off, i dont need to hear it!

 

[Saggy]

_Everyone_who_believe_in_god_are_stupid_

If someone wants to believe in this higher force then do so, i dont care. Both options (the scientific one and the religious one) are possible. So ultimately we just have to figure it out by ourselves because theres no way we could know for sure.

However! religion is more than believing in a higher force that created the universe. I for one do not believe that there was a guy 2000 years ago who could turn water in to wine and cure all sickness, for example. Correct me if im wrong, Jesus (and his little miracles) are a big part of christianity. (Other religions have their miracle makers aswell.)

Basicly you are saying your first post was just a flame bait? Now it isn't stupid to believe in god but its stupid to be part of some religion?

 

[leviathane]

no, i don't beleive in a god, i beleive in free will n stuff like that. Though i admit there are some things that are best left a mystery.

 

[Lamp]

I once slept with a German girl who was catholic.

 

[Alliandre]

It's nice to see someone else who has put some thought into the matter of religion, even if they disagree with me. Just to make it clear, I haven't read the Qu'ran, but in most cases, the general theories behind religion are the same.

Well, let's start off with the chances of the world thing. This can easily be refuted. This is based on a belief that the world is amazingly perfect. That it is the best it could have been. But this is incredibly false. Evolution has left us with a number of different useless things in our body. I don't know any specific examples, but ask any good biologist and I'm sure they could point out a few things that serve no purpose in our body. The world could have turned out with beings that put us to shame. The world could have turned into a firey ball of mush. Like all things in the universe, there are "chances" (I'm a firm believer in determinism. Cause and results led up to everything, leading back forever) of things going either way. Our prediction of the possibility of that happening may make it look extremely remote, but every other possibility was just as remote, looking at it on the basis of chance.

One of your points shows a belief in an existence of a "soul". You discuss this a little later on in your post. But, I don't believe a "soul" can exist. I mean, what is a soul anyway? Well, most seem to agree that a soul is an entirely non-physical thing which makes us specifically human. Where does this non-physical thing reside then? This thing that makes us human? Inside our bodies of course. And of course, a surgeon can't see what it is that makes us human from opening us up because the soul is non-physical. We can break down different body-parts into smaller and smaller parts, into the sub-atomic, but the soul, what makes us human is not one of these. So, what does it mean, to be non-physical? Well, it means to have no size or shape, no mass, hence no weight, no colour, smell, etc, is not made up of atoms or molecules, or does not obey the laws of nature. This doesn't really tell us what the mind is though. This just tells us what it isn't. It's like explaining what a sword is by listing what it isn't. Isn't a couch, phone, car, gun, carrot. I wouldn't have the patience to go through everything possible (well, impossible) to find out what the soul is. One thing you can say about the soul is what it does however. The soul allows us to think and reason, and do all the stuff that makes us specifically "human". Well, I think the physical brain does this to be honest. But how to seperate out these two points? Well, if you think about how the universe works, it is all one thing reacting upon another. An example is one pool ball moving closer to another. When there's no distance between the two, they touch and the second ball moves. Energy (momentum) is transferred from one ball to the other, as explained in the first law of thermodynamics. This sort of account doesn't apply to a soul though, or not as most religious people would understand souls.
A soul has no size or shape, but how do you move closer to something that has no size or shape? A soul has no weight, but momentum is mass x velocity. You see the problem? If a soul has no mass, it can have no kinetic energy, and so can't interact with your body in any way. It can't make you human, because it can't effect the physical in any way. What actually happens is that you see something happen, light strikes your eye, this sends a message via the optical nerve, through to the visual cortex of your brain. Things happen in your inferotemporal cortex (sorry. It had to be done ) and the result is a belief of form. "Ooh. Kinky picture." This can bring about further thought, which brings about the physical movement of.. I'll leave that line of thought there.

Finally, to add a point of my own, if God, Allah, whatever is omniscient and omnipotent, is he/she/it not a part of everything, including us, the trees, and, quite literally, everything? Adding to this point of my rebuttal of the non-physical (the soul) above, this means that God is simply a fancy way of saying the everything. So "he" could not speak to us, or communicate to us except in the way that everything works. This is not religion, and it doesn't involve "giving teh sweet luv" to an oak tree. It just involves just realising everything is connected in some way or another. And that, need not involve religion at all.

Religion has given alot, and has taught us alot, and has also had the wrong effect on some people. We wouldn't be where we are today without religion, but it doesn't lessen it's bullturd factor at all.

 

[Ctuchik]

thats what i always thought but how about this -

much of science is theory. you believe it anyway. so therfore your putting some amount of belief into science.

god, in effect, is a theory. people believe in it anyway.

you could say both science and god are nearly the same. in that they require belief and some people will believe one or the other. they are both used to explain things around us. some people become scientists to try make the science more than a theory. some people study religion to make it more than a theory.

so ye, how about that more constructive reply. as it is right now i cant really agree with what you are saying.

atleast science can proove itself somewhat. ive never seen "god" or whatever it is proove anything. "god" is and will always be something fictional that really doesent have anything of value to proove he/she/it ever existed. and no i dont take the bible as proof because of the simple fact that whoever wrote it in the first place could have been totally insane and seen pink with purple spot pigs flying outside....

the bible is 2000:ish years old, and not one single time in those 2000 years have anything ever been *prooven* to be correct in it.

so yeah, call me a atheist i guess.

 

[Ctuchik]

The problem with science is that it can only naswer half the questions that the human psyche asks.

Science is all about the logical nuts and bolts of how something happens, the actions, reactions and frequencies of the results.
What it fails to answer is the question as to why something happens when and how it does. The classic example is a person walking down a path and stubbing his toe. Statistics might show that 1 time in 100 a person stubs his toe on the path. However the human mind seems hard wired into questioning why it happened to that person that time......

most things happend because they do. just because 1 in 100 stubbs his toe doesent mean "god" made it so.

like u said, action and reaction. its most likly that simple,

 

[Huntingtons]

Alliandre - i wonder, whats in outer space?

 

[Ezteq]

i voted other, the first option might possibly be me but i dont "believe" in science tbh.

i dont believe in any god, but im not saying there isn't one to quote terry pratchett "the postman exists but i dont go around believeing in him" the thing is, the way i see it anyway if there is a god then woo...

that changes things how? i mean bad stuff happens to as many people who believe in it as those that don't, good things happen to those who don't believe and i just try and be the best person i can be in my own way i dont need some dusty old book written by dusty old men to tell me how to behave or what to believe in.

at the end of it all i do things because i feel theyre right not because i'm trying to gain brownie points with something that might exist. But i dont condemn people for their beliefs (i condemn them for being arseholes but not their beliefs)

my bf is a catholic and i recognise that as being something thats important to him so i support him and encourage him to go to church etc, i don't want to go myself and am not looking to be converted or saved because i don't believe i need to be... unless my kick board floats away when im in the deep end then i scream blue bloody murder to be saved

 

[Ahtlehson]

Read the book and think and tell your opinions again.
Some of you who come tell about god and jesus haven't even read a chapter of that book.

 

[scarloc]

You've got the body, the soul, the spirit. I think there is something that I cannot see that has a certain power. Very unspecific I know, but I cant pin it down any more than that. Sort of like a karma that affects us all. You could feasibly call that God.

 

[Ctuchik]

Alliandre - i wonder, whats in outer space?

lots of nothing, even more planets and suns, most likly something "intelligent" living on a few of those planets and a little more of nothing...

 

[Raven]

I don't know or care if there is a god or not. even if there was i wouldn't follow him/her, anyone who thinks they have the divine right to be obeyed would have to suck me long and hard before I did. I also think people who pledge their lives to something that may or may not be real are foolish by all means live a good life and treat people as you wish to be treated (though most religious people i have met are hypocrites)

Edit: Though to be fair religion is used ask an excuse to wage war or cause harm, it is not usually the true cause.

 

[Huntingtons]

Read the book and think and tell your opinions again.
Some of you who come tell about god and jesus haven't even read a chapter of that book.

so? go read the qu'ouran (spelling qq) and any other religious book and come talk.

"the book" is a stupid comment because its not a discussion about christianity but about religion.