Apple getting spanked

Moriath

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Good to see that cou tries are clamping down on tax avoidance
 

Gumbo

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I hope Fox is on the phone to Apple right now inviting them over. We'll be able to offer whatever advantages we want to once brexit is sorted through. (Is there a tin hat smiley?)
 

DaGaffer

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No white hats here I'm afraid. Apple have played a duplicitous game (like most American corporates) but the EU are also using this a power grab for supranational taxation (even arguing that if Ireland does get the money back some of it might be disbursed elsewhere in the EU, without saying where, which actually directly contradicts some of the logic of their judgement), and the Irish government are also obviously guilty of doing Apple special favours even though they can justifiably say they've obeyed the letter of the law (I'd also argue that plenty of EU countries still artificially favour companies in their own markets all the time, despite it being illegal under EU law; the difference being they're domestic companies rather than American multinationals). This is a long way from over.
 

Scouse

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Good to see that cou tries are clamping down on tax avoidance
You mean the EU.

The thing you voted to leave, so the UK could continue it's own status as a the world's largest tax-avoidance protectorate?
 

Moriath

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Yes i voted to leave. But doesnt mean that the uk wont act to secure taxes as well. I can congratulate an institution for doing something withput wanting to be in it.
 

Bodhi

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You mean the EU.

The thing you voted to leave, so the UK could continue it's own status as a the world's largest tax-avoidance protectorate?

So you mean if we do that we'll get lots of lovely tax money from foreign companies we wouldn't otherwise have done, plus all the other associated taxes paid by people who work for a living?

Sounds pretty good to me, where do i sign up? Seems to have worked a treat for the Dutch and Luxembourg...

Oh actually no, the Guardian are based in Luxembourg. Fuck that in that case.
 

Tom

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They'll be here no matter what the tax regime. They exist to sell things, they'll never "take our business elsewhere". Ever.
 

Job

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Aaahhhrr Pirate nation we shall be.
Hello Mrs May, could we base our billuon dollar business in your lovely country at a discount rate...np two quid do?
Thankyou, we will of course move our entire workforce here.
Sllendid...drinks alk round.
 

Gwadien

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White House spokesman Josh Earnest says it is possible that the EU order to make Apple pay €13bn in back taxes could be unfair to American taxpayers because the company might be able to claim the cost as a tax deduction in the US.

"We are concerned about a unilateral approach ... that threaten to undermine progress that we have made collaboratively with the Europeans to make the international taxation system fair," he told reporters.

- From the beeb.

So basically, we have a country which has a company which avoids tax in Europe, but that's unfair, because it'll mean that the US will get less tax? eh?
 

Tom

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Because if that £13bn went into the US, it'd also be taxed there. Obviously Apple don't want to pay that tax, so they keep it offshore. The US probably would rather not see Ireland get £13bn that it'd rather have.
 

DaGaffer

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Because if that £13bn went into the US, it'd also be taxed there. Obviously Apple don't want to pay that tax, so they keep it offshore. The US probably would rather not see Ireland get £13bn that it'd rather have.

Ireland doesn't want the $13bn and disagrees with the judgement. I would imagine the 4bn euros taken in income tax from Apple employees helps sweeten things somewhat. Not to mention that having Apple in Ireland attracted Google, Facebook and every other dot com in creation to headquarter here as well.
 

Scouse

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Meh. Who actually gives a fuck on the ins or outs - Apple paid 0.001-1% tax. The EU has taken a first shot at the corporation.

Even auntie openly posits the question 'who runs the world - corporations or governments?'. It's nice to see a supranational entity start taking this seriously, whether they fail, or if it's just for PR or whatever...
 

Hawkwind

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plenty of EU countries still artificially favour companies in their own markets all the time, despite it being illegal under EU law; the difference being they're domestic companies rather than American multinationals). This is a long way from over.

One in particular comes to mind, Airbus. I would love the US to tackle that monster. Tax breaks subsidized exchange rates and very dubious business practices for a start. Abuse of position in dealing with suppliers and protectionism, forcing its own products to sit in the middle of supplier systems. In a recent project called HBC for future connectivity they actually had clauses that allows them to share your IP with other suppliers at their discretion. If you don't sign your off the aircraft and excluded from any production line installs.
 

DaGaffer

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One in particular comes to mind, Airbus. I would love the US to tackle that monster. Tax breaks subsidized exchange rates and very dubious business practices for a start. Abuse of position in dealing with suppliers and protectionism, forcing its own products to sit in the middle of supplier systems. In a recent project called HBC for future connectivity they actually had clauses that allows them to share your IP with other suppliers at their discretion. If you don't sign your off the aircraft and excluded from any production line installs.

The French definition of "strategic industries" that can't be bought out by foreigners (but are perfectly fre to buy foreign companies themselves) would be another example; how the fuck is Danone worthy of special protection?

NB. I would say Airbus is no worse than the US aerospace industry when it comes to special protection; when the world's largest economy spends 4%+ GDP with you, it means Boeing and Lockheed have a massive safety net to subsidise commercial operations that isn't available to non-US manufacturers, so the Europeans have to cook the books to stay competitive. Its part of the reason why BAE pivoted towards the US rather than tighter integration with Europe.
 

Tom

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Ireland doesn't want the $13bn and disagrees with the judgement.

Ireland being a small number of overweight men in a room, and not 4.5 million other people who'd like to see their lives improved by a lump sum of cash that should always have been paid...
 

DaGaffer

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Ireland being a small number of overweight men in a room, and not 4.5 million other people who'd like to see their lives improved by a lump sum of cash that should always have been paid...

Not really. View from the coal face is that the FDI is worth more to the country than the tax, especially from the likes of Apple who set up in Cork rather than Dublin. Sure there are infographics knocking around showing the tax paying for the Health Service, but a more nuanced view is that its 25 years of tax paying for one year of health. Also, those fat blokes in a room have come from all of the major political parties and they've all sung the same mantra, low corporate tax to stimulate foreign direct investment; joe public has been aware of the Apple Double Irish for a very long time and they haven't kicked out any politicians because of it; its more often seen as the way a small country can compete against the big boys. Frankly Bono has got more shit for his tax affairs than Apple.
 

Tom

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Not really. View from the coal face is that the FDI is worth more to the country than the tax, especially from the likes of Apple who set up in Cork rather than Dublin. Sure there are infographics knocking around showing the tax paying for the Health Service, but a more nuanced view is that its 25 years of tax paying for one year of health. Also, those fat blokes in a room have come from all of the major political parties and they've all sung the same mantra, low corporate tax to stimulate foreign direct investment; joe public has been aware of the Apple Double Irish for a very long time and they haven't kicked out any politicians because of it; its more often seen as the way a small country can compete against the big boys. Frankly Bono has got more shit for his tax affairs than Apple.

They can justify it however they like - it's still tax avoidance by a company that wants all the benefits countries have to offer while not paying for them. Normally I wouldn't criticise a company for following the law, I'd criticise the law - but in this case, the law appears to have been deliberately set up to benefit one company over others. Thankfully, the EU has stuck a lever in the gears.
 

Raven

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I am sure post-Brexit we can come up with a deal.

I am all for special deals which may actually benefit the economy on the whole, what with job creation both for the company in question, then the supply chain, which obviously has a knock on effect both in tax revenue and social cost reduction.

They are taking the piss quite a lot though in this case.

People bitch and moan about Amazon but the amount of jobs they have created and business they have done in the UK is astounding (we have done around 4 mil over the last couple of years) They do not appear to be slowing down either.
 

Bodhi

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People bitch an moan about Amazon not paying tax as they miss a vital point, Amazon made hardly any profit until this year, reinvesting everything back into the business.
 

DaGaffer

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They can justify it however they like - it's still tax avoidance by a company that wants all the benefits countries have to offer while not paying for them. Normally I wouldn't criticise a company for following the law, I'd criticise the law - but in this case, the law appears to have been deliberately set up to benefit one company over others. Thankfully, the EU has stuck a lever in the gears.

And the Irish government disagrees.
 

DaGaffer

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You do know that's the last Irish government but one and an entirely different party right?

Anyway, the reason the Irish government disagrees is that the EU has now decided that its the duty of individual member states to collect taxes against revenue earned in other member states, which is new (and at odds with the OECD recommendations), and also part of the reason why no-one's getting excited about a $13bn windfall, because there won't be one. The EU is using this as a way to nullify the competitive advantage of Ireland's low corporation tax status (which they hate)
 

Raven

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You mean the EU are meddling beyond their remit?!
 

Tom

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Presumably it was also a different Irish government who first set the scheme up however many decades ago. The point is, they're all defending it because they'd rather kiss the arse of a company who obviously doesn't give a hoot about the Irish people (or whoever lives in whatever country they choose to do business in) than accept that they gave Apple a competitive advantage via state aid.
 

DaGaffer

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Presumably it was also a different Irish government who first set the scheme up however many decades ago. The point is, they're all defending it because they'd rather kiss the arse of a company who obviously doesn't give a hoot about the Irish people (or whoever lives in whatever country they choose to do business in) than accept that they gave Apple a competitive advantage via state aid.

Nope. They followed the rules as set out at the time, which was to take direct taxation from products and services sold within the country (Irish tax law doesn't include transfer pricing), which was the OECD view on taxation. The double Irish came along long after that deal was done, and while I may find it morally unacceptable, it wasn't illegal. The EU is retrospectively moving the goalposts.

I'm not an Apple fanboy in the slightest, or any of the other tax avoiding US corporates, but what the EU are doing isn't acceptable either. Its perfectly reasonable to change laws going forward (although even then it should be agreed by the member states - this hasn't happened here), but not to rewrite history for your own advantage.
 

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