Anyone for an Intelligent Debate? (no newbie lamers allowed thx)

[mr.Blacky]

Wij your story only proofs that the theist in your story aint smart
also where did god ever say something was good? the closest thing you could think of is the bible/koran/torah etc and that is written by humans with all our faults

 

[Sar]

Originally posted by Mellow


But doesn't science state that for every action, there is a reaction?

Therefore if God exists, then an equally poweful thing/entity would also exist as a complete opposite.

Good:Evil

Good deeds do not equate to proof of "God". I said "God" specifically because I was talking about the Christian God, be it the "Tory" Old Testament one or the "Lib Dems" New Testament version.

Philosophers have mulled this over in the so called "Problem of Evil" for years, and Wij fairly much summed it up but to explain it fully:

"God" is supposedly supremely benevolent, omniscient and omnipotent.

So if he's all powerful he can stop evil from happening.

If he's all knowing he'd know when and where evil is occurring.

And if he was supremely benevolent and loved mankind then he'd prevent evil from happening considering the two earlier points.

As evil undeniably exists then the following conclusion has to be drawn:

"God" fails one (two or all three) of the above criteria, so can he really still be considered a god?


The answer is of course No.

Ergo "God" does not exist.

 

[Daffeh]

if there is a God, it clearly hates us all

 

[suicide121]

Yep, if there was a god then we would all be happy and have ferrari's and stuff

 

[mr.Blacky]

again very easy story. The only thing that people are saying is because there is evil god cant exist. Well the problem is for me there is no evil. Hence god can exist. For the mishaps, troubles and other shit in the world WE need them. Without these things we wouldn't be who we are. We wouldn't know what is right and we wouldn't know what to do. What I am seeing here is that people are looking at the individual and not the larger picture, humankind. People live and die that is nature, if someone dies and people think that that death wasn't needed people will try to prevent that kind of death from happening again.

 

[Daffeh]

so someone hacksawing somebody else to death, isnt evil, just natural selection?

thats pretty fucked up logic in my book

 

[mr.Blacky]

that aint evil thats sick

 

[Wij]

Originally posted by Mr.Blackshirt
again very easy story. The only thing that people are saying is because there is evil god cant exist. Well the problem is for me there is no evil. Hence god can exist. For the mishaps, troubles and other shit in the world WE need them. Without these things we wouldn't be who we are. We wouldn't know what is right and we wouldn't know what to do. What I am seeing here is that people are looking at the individual and not the larger picture, humankind. People live and die that is nature, if someone dies and people think that that death wasn't needed people will try to prevent that kind of death from happening again.

I answered those points. Giving the example of the Earthquake. It is NOT caused by human failings or choices. God COULD prevent them. To most people a good God would do. Any God that let's people die like that is not, certainly in my opinion, good. To counteract this problem you MUST claim that this earthquake is good in some way. Therefore the problem of evil MUST depend on the outcome of the argument about where morality originates from.

Assuming it's either a human valuation or it comes from God does not produce satifactory results for the Theist unless they are logically willing to accept that God could dictate anything. It does not matter a jot whether they believe God ever would decide that child abuse is good. The point is that you believe God would not do that because God is good. That simply proves you have moral judgements that lie beyond God's will. You are right back to the first possibility. If you believe God could not make such things good then God is NOT the basis of morality. Where you believe morality lies then, if not within human judgements, is up to you. But please explain.

 

[Mellow-]

Everyone knows God uses Earthquakes and other disasters to smite (kill) unbelievers and naughty people ( )

Life is a test on ones soul or something. Some people just have harder tests of character.

Not my opinion mind. I think it was better when it were all fields and the Aliens poked me with sticks.

 

[mr.Blacky]

ok Wij.
Lets take for a fact that God could change the law of nature. Why should god change the fact that there is such a thing like earth quakes? Most religions think that with a God a person has an eternal soul, so considering that the death of a persons body isn't important. Life is just a test, after the test there could be something. Reborn (reincarnation) heaven or hell (last part I dont agree full stop hell that is).
To be honest I am not saying that there is or that there isn't a God caus then it wouldn't be faith
I still haven't heard anything that would say that there is no God. As for saying you have moral judgements that lie beyond God's will, yes that is true that is called free will.
Morality always is your own choice, but just like there are laws of the state u life in now there might be laws of how you have lived.

I might say something more wise but am not sober and tomorrow there is a drinking party in my town so dont count on me

 

[Wij]

The point isn't whether you can make moral choices without God telling you. The point is whether Good and Evil are whatever God decrees or what we decide is Good and Evil, or something else. The whole argument rests on this point.

Have a good booze-up tho

 

[Sar]

Someone tortures and murders a baby - how is that in any way a test for the child? Your argument is fundamentally flawed because you're pre-supposing that God exists, when in fact he can't do for the reasons Wij and I outlined above.

If god truly existed then up to a billion people wouldn't be dying of famine etc in the third world - you're telling me that that's a test for those people? People who have completely different precepts of religion than your own? Why should the innocent get tested like this and the dicks get an easy ride (Hello George Bush Jr)?

 

[Wij]

Actuallt the torturer is the one who is excercising his free will. Hence he would go to hell. Keep it to natural disasters. Much simpler cases.

 

[Sar]

Evil is evil, regardless of free will.

If "God" was benevolent, omniscient and omnipotent he'd stop it in all its forms.

 

[Wij]

A benevolent God would surely not want to create mindless automatons. Keep the cases to those where free will is not the cause of the Evil and you'll find the argument much easier

 

[Sar]

Free will isn't only exercised in evil actions. It can be displayed in all manner of non-evil actions, deeds and words.

So "God" could prevent evil from happening without infringing upon human free will.

 

[Wij]

That really depends on what you believe the nature of free will to be. That subject is a minefield, believe me. It's boring too

 

[Sar]

Aye, I'm sure as fuck not getting into it

 

[Wij]

<simpsons_reference>

Concentrate on the earthquakes. Always looking at God's beautiful Earthquakes.

*notice naked fat arse of free will sliding down the church roof*

</simpsons_reference>

 

[mr.Blacky]

am rather drunk so typing this costs alot of time and effort......

YEs people die with an earthquake, so what people will die caus we cant live for ever. What is important is the big question what can the human kind do..... to prevent or to help.
Ok lets say God could prevent all evil, nature and from humans. I would like to point out something. Take a baby pamper it spoil it put it in a rubber room, tie it to a bed (softly) feed it through tubes (whats that damn word). RESULT yes the child is save no physical harm it will live her/his normal lifespan. Acceptible NO why it wont learn, will never walk on his/her own feet. So what is the better choice? let the bad things happen it will make the whole thing stronger. Who wants their child to be weak things.


oh I did tank enough Wij was gooddd but made too much an ass out of myself i think, though not sure anymore

 

[Daffeh]

im right, so NER NER NER NER

 

[mr.Blacky]

hihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihi

 

[Wij]

ppl who die in an earthquake don't get the chance to prove anything. An all-powerful, all-knowing God sould surely think of a better way than that.

 

[Daffeh]

just face the facts people...

I AM YOUR GOD

 

[mr.Blacky]

perhaps not people but we as a whole specie!!!!!!!!11111
aslo people will die anyways

 

[Wij]

Mr B. You are sooooo pissed

What's the event ?

 

[Sawtooth]

As far as I know in my limited experience on this planet there hasn't been any convincing evidence for the existence of a GOD but there is compelling evidence for evolution. But is evolution a scientific antithesis of creationalism?

Now there are those that argue that evolution is part of Gods plan. Seems to me these people believe that man was made in Gods image whilst the rest get to grow a few extra limbs...handy for that chicken franchise?

Personally

Is there some supreme being? No, but you can buy KFC, that at least tastes of something.

Saw

 

[old.charliealpha]

creationism is to me the belief that something higher or somebody more powerful than thou exists and casts judgement over what you do. Not a bad thing generally but it is dangerous when it's on a global scale. Look at the shit in the Middle East. Its an age old example but being a creationist gets you into trouble. You cant expect people in this day and age to believe that a God made us out of nothing. Its like telling people the moon is made of cheese, or that Santa is real or there really is an Easter bunny.

Going the other route and believing in what Darwin was piping on about tends to lead us towards a more responsible and calculated person. Because in that vein we are acknowledging that we made ourselves and got ourselves where we are through a course of evolution. Therefore making us responsible for our own actions. ie: we can't blame stuff on something that doesn't exist.

creationist: Loon
Darwinist: Safe

 

[mr.Blacky]

Wij it has something to do with cows, dunno what though. I wasn't that drunk though. Had get up early to sign in for a place in Amsterdam.
Ahhh Saw you are making a mistake caus god has no body you have to look at the soul not the body. Also there is evidence for evolution but but who is to say that those evolution rules were not made up by god? Of course there is no evidence that there is a god otherwise it wouldn't be a faith, it would be a fact.
My problem with Darwinisme is that it is treated as a belief. Dont say anything negative about it or you will get branded as a hick or a conservative ignorant fool.
I believe in a mix of the 2.

Charlie ok then how do you think the universe came to be? A Big Bang? to be honest so do I. But why was there a bang? Lets look at that theorie. There are 3 options for the future an ever expanding universe, an expanding and then retracting universe and as last the continuing big bang expanding retracting and then another big bang. According to the last calculations we are in an everexpanding universe. Oh before i forget the normal saying is that the bal of mature in the beginning (where did that come from?) got to a critical mass and then exploded.
The main thing missing is still WHY?
Yes the creationist theorie has a lot missing and is being supported by belief but darwinism is science so where are the facts?

 

[old.D0LLySh33p]

Gah, I have to do a presentation on Milton's 'Paradise Lost' today.

Waaaaah!

Well, according to Mr. Milton you've all already fallen due to the crime Eve commited in the Garden. Of course, this was all preordained by fate and God.

Ah well.

/me dies.