Question Any property / probate lawyers in the house?

[WPKenny]

So, we're trying to sell our house at the moment.

It's 1 of 2 purpose built maisonette's, one on top of the other (flats basically).

We have, in the past, tentatively looked into getting the lease extended and were told that of the group of siblings who own the lease, one had died last december so the lease etc can't be touched.

We've since found a buyer for the house who is not so bothered about extending the lease right now.

Now the place upstairs has been sold, about 4 months ago, but the sale still hasn't gone through because of the lease/freehold/whatever still being in probate and so they apparently can't get "permission" to sell.

The estate agent who handled the sale of upstairs is also handling our sale so she's up to speed with the whole thing. As recently as last week she heard from the freeholder's solicitor and was told it's till in probate.

If the probate things drags on for months there's a chance our sale will collapse and we miss out on the house we've set our sights on.

Now what I'm wondering is if there's anyway to push it all through without having to wait for the probate to be all over? The catch being we've got bugger all money for an expensive court case.

 

[Wazzerphuk]

AFAIK no. Were you selling as probate? If not, you're very, very naughty.

 

[WPKenny]

AFAIK no. Were you selling as probate? If not, you're very, very naughty.

Selling as probate? As in telling the buyer that the freeholders are in probate and squabbling over who gets what? Yes, I believe the estate agent told them before they put in the offer.

 

[GimmlyThe3rd]

Not 100% as I haven't done much RE in the UK, but an educated guess would say no. Unless you got a bucket load of money to blow on lawyers, I wouldn't even try ....


But try a real estate / law forum, quite a few about.

 

[Wazzerphuk]

Selling as probate? As in telling the buyer that the freeholders are in probate and squabbling over who gets what? Yes, I believe the estate agent told them before they put in the offer.

Well, if that's the case the buyers should have been informed and it'd be unlikely they'd just randomly drop out as they will know that these things can take time. Obviously the longer it goes on for the less convenient it is, but it shouldn't be too much of a problem as people looking to buy a probate property aren't generally in a rush.

 

[DaGaffer]

AFAIK the solicitors for the estate have one year to get the probate process completed (its actually called "a probate year"). So if it started in December you could be looking at another 5 months, worse case. I think there are specialist lawyers who can work to expidite probate but I've no idea what they'd cost.

 

[WPKenny]

So I took Gimmly's advice and went to a specialist forum. They're being very helpful so far but it motivated me to struggle through all the legal-ese in the lease and as far as I can tell (thought it is hard to be certain) we don't need permission to sell, we simply have to write and tell them within 21 days of the sale.

Typing the relevant section out was NOT fun...

"2. The lessee hereby covenants with the Lessor in mannor following that is to say:
(17) not during the last three years of the said term (except by Will) to assign underlet or part with possesion of the demised premises or any part thereof respectively without the consent in writing of the Lessor first obtained
(18) Within Twenty-one days next after such absolute transfer or mortgage either by way of sub-demise or by way of legal charge assignment or devolution of their interest under this present Lease in the demised premises or any part thereof to give notice in writing of such transfer mortgage assignment or devolution and of the name quality and place or places of abode of the tranferee or transferees mortgagee or mortgagees or chargeeor chargees or asignee or asignees or other person in whom the said interest is thereby vested to the Lessor or his Solicitors and produce to them the instrument of such transfer mortgage assignment or devolution and pay to them a fee of Two Pounds for the registration of each such notice"

So, given that there's over 62 years left on the lease, (17) isn't relevant and (18) merely states if we move, we just let the freeholder know?
The rest of the lease is stuff about keeping things in good condition and insurance etc.

 

[Ch3tan]

Kenny, you need a solicitor mate. Don't really on net logic for this one.

 

[GimmlyThe3rd]

So I took Gimmly's advice and went to a specialist forum. They're being very helpful so far but it motivated me to struggle through all the legal-ese in the lease and as far as I can tell (thought it is hard to be certain) we don't need permission to sell, we simply have to write and tell them within 21 days of the sale.

Typing the relevant section out was NOT fun...

"2. The lessee hereby covenants with the Lessor in mannor following that is to say:
(17) not during the last three years of the said term (except by Will) to assign underlet or part with possesion of the demised premises or any part thereof respectively without the consent in writing of the Lessor first obtained
(18) Within Twenty-one days next after such absolute transfer or mortgage either by way of sub-demise or by way of legal charge assignment or devolution of their interest under this present Lease in the demised premises or any part thereof to give notice in writing of such transfer mortgage assignment or devolution and of the name quality and place or places of abode of the tranferee or transferees mortgagee or mortgagees or chargeeor chargees or asignee or asignees or other person in whom the said interest is thereby vested to the Lessor or his Solicitors and produce to them the instrument of such transfer mortgage assignment or devolution and pay to them a fee of Two Pounds for the registration of each such notice"

So, given that there's over 62 years left on the lease, (17) isn't relevant and (18) merely states if we move, we just let the freeholder know?
The rest of the lease is stuff about keeping things in good condition and insurance etc.

I spent a lot of times with lawyers and real estate contracts for my business. Their so expensive it's ridiculous, your best off taking a template off the internet or buying one off a lawyer and slightly editing it.

RE lawyers will have templates and it needs to be worded perfectly. Getting a lawyer to draft you one will most likely cost you £800 up .....

 

[WPKenny]

I spent a lot of times with lawyers and real estate contracts for my business. Their so expensive it's ridiculous, your best off taking a template off the internet or buying one off a lawyer and slightly editing it.

RE lawyers will have templates and it needs to be worded perfectly. Getting a lawyer to draft you one will most likely cost you £800 up .....

That's cool we're not looking to change it, just want to get the hell out of here and we'd been told we'd have to wait for the probate with the freeholders to be sorted. Now it looks like we might be able to just sell on and let them know we've done so.

If that is the case I feel sorry for the poor buggers upstairs because it would seem they've got crappy solicitors who never bothered reading the lease and have been waiting 4 months to sell.

Spoke to the estate agent this morning and she's passing it on to the solicitors to take a look but it won't be till monday.

*fingers crossed*

 

[Vae]

I spoke with a couple of solicitor friends last night (one works in a firm in Broadstairs) and they could see no reason why you'd need a freeholders permission to sell a leasehold property. It would be rather unusual for that to be the case. However always check these things out with your solicitor.

 

[WPKenny]

I spoke with a couple of solicitor friends last night (one works in a firm in Broadstairs) and they could see no reason why you'd need a freeholders permission to sell a leasehold property. It would be rather unusual for that to be the case. However always check these things out with your solicitor.

Cheers Vae. It's encouraging to hear so many people interpreting it the same way as me.

 

[MYstIC G]

Leasehold Advisory Service: Free advice on residential leasehold law

LEASE, The Leasehold Advisory Service, is an Executive Non Departmental Public Body (ENDPB) funded by Government to provide free legal advice to leaseholders, landlords, professional advisers, managers and others on the law affecting residential leasehold in England and Wales.

Fill out their contact form (it's free) and they will provide you with some solid advice. We've used them before when working on projects involving messy leasehold situations and they've always been spot on.

 

[rynnor]

Cheers Vae. It's encouraging to hear so many people interpreting it the same way as me.

Sorry but Vae asked the wrong question - she's right that you dont need freeholders permission to sell but you do need the freeholders to extend the lease and if one is in probate your basically out of luck till that is resolved.

 

[WPKenny]

Sorry but Vae asked the wrong question - she's right that you dont need freeholders permission to sell but you do need the freeholders to extend the lease and if one is in probate your basically out of luck till that is resolved.

We just want to sell, not extend. That's a problem for the new owners!

 

[rynnor]

We just want to sell, not extend. That's a problem for the new owners!

Yeah but the sub-text is that below 70 years remaining many mortgage companies are going to get concerned unless the details of an extension are agreed with the freeholder.

I imagine its that rather than some need to ask the freeholder to sell that has scuppered your neighbours sale.

 

[old.user4556]

Nobody's probating my attorney.

 

[Gumbo]

Probate can take years and even decades to sort out sometimes, there is no fixed limit. it might be the Executors Year which Gaff is talking about which is just an aim the law society gives solicitors to execute a Will. that doesn't necessarily mean the probate is all done. Have a look at this one https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Jennens and Bleak House if you know your Dickens.

In reality, even when it's complicated, someone has to be administering the Estate, in the best interests of the Estate. The world doesn't stop turning because someone has died. Business still needs to be transacted. It sounds like what you're doing is pretty straightforward and it would be up to the buyer to be worried about extending the leasehold, so long as they know what's going on. You can probably get an answer with a quick consult with a solicitor who specialises in property though, which would be the safest.

 

[Raven]

Hehe, probe.

 

[DaGaffer]

Probate can take years and even decades to sort out sometimes, there is no fixed limit. it might be the Executors Year which Gaff is talking about which is just an aim the law society gives solicitors to execute a Will. that doesn't necessarily mean the probate is all done. Have a look at this one https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Jennens and Bleak House if you know your Dickens.

In reality, even when it's complicated, someone has to be administering the Estate, in the best interests of the Estate. The world doesn't stop turning because someone has died. Business still needs to be transacted. It sounds like what you're doing is pretty straightforward and it would be up to the buyer to be worried about extending the leasehold, so long as they know what's going on. You can probably get an answer with a quick consult with a solicitor who specialises in property though, which would be the safest.

You do know this thread is five years old right?

 

[Scouse]

You do know this thread is five years old right?

This.

 

[Shagrat]

so has it been sorted out yet then?

 

[TdC]

You do know this thread is five years old right?

it was bots chum

*probes DaGaffer*

 

[Gumbo]

Hehe, apparently not. I wonder if it was all sorted?

 

[TdC]

BOTS!!!!

 

[TdC]

booooottttsssss

 

[TdC]

https://forums.freddyshouse.com/quotes/1210/

 

[TdC]

 

[fettoken]

-1?

 

[Scouse]

BOTS!!!!

Actually - I recognised the name as a fishing probate lawyer from some other forum which dishes out legal advice.

By "recognised" I mean, "rings a bell"...