Anne Frank

[Tom]

Rather sad

Not a very nice feeling, to see how history can be twisted quite so far.....

 

[Scooba da Bass]

Kim Il Jung has insane hair.

 

[L_Plates]

When i was in amsterdam with the wife i visited the house were Anne Frank was hiding. It gave such a wierd feeling walking around the place and actuall standing in her room were she wrote the diary all those years ago.

I find it sad that people will use the words of a scared child to rage war on someone else.

 

[TdC]

I've seen the documentary they reference. It's scary as hell, especially the hords of pre-programmed childeren that quote such jems as that there's nothing at all wrong with their country.
There's a scene where a child actually thinks for itself, and the teacher gets filmed stepping in and telling the kid what to say to the evil capitalist journalists. The same thing then happens to a government minister who gets reprimanded by a political officer because he doesn't answer a question with the proper communist verve.

it's scary shit

 

[Paradroid]

I've seen the documentary they reference. It's scary as hell, especially the hords of pre-programmed childeren that quote such jems as that there's nothing at all wrong with their country.
There's a scene where a child actually thinks for itself, and the teacher gets filmed stepping in and telling the kid what to say to the evil capitalist journalists. The same thing then happens to a government minister who gets reprimanded by a political officer because he doesn't answer a question with the proper communist verve.

it's scary shit

Not very surprising though is it?
Every country shovels it's own brand of propaganda, creates it's own version of history, decides what it's citizens should learn & think (directing curriculum’s), what books to read, everyone is told - then expected - to conform to the norm aren't they?

It's similar to the anti-communist sentiment in the west after WWII (commie witch-hunts etc.).

Imagine you asked a bunch of UK or US kids about the current war on terrorism. What kind of responses are you going to get? If a teacher was nearby and a kid started rambling off at a tangent, saying it was a war against Muslims, the teacher’s going to step-in and correct the child isn’t she? Conform to the norm.

The example of the political officer reprimanding the politician is very reminiscent of the recent news involving the UK Official Secrets Act. A lowly civil servant was dragged through the courts charged with....what...??? For essentially, "doing the right thing"? Not conforming to the party-line? Even though everyone could see that what she did was for “good” and not “evil”.

I'm not condoning the North Korean stance here, I don't agree with any of it. I'm simply pointing out that we too are guilty of this shit, and the sooner we recognise that the better. Ask yourself this, why are you hearing about this anyway? Could it possibly be because North Korea has already featured in the list of possible enemies/terror states by the west? Is this our own little edible bite of propaganda to fuel our hatred, and, acceptance of a future conflict? I’m sure there are many schools in many counties defiling us and our history everyday. And why not, I think we deserve it.

:touch:

 

[Tom]

I don't think you can compare the kind of freedom of expression in a country like N.Korea with what we have over here. The main difference is that we have a right to express our opinions in any way we see fit, if you wanted to join the BNP, you might lose a few friends, but nobody has the right to stop you from doing it.

In N.Korea, and other similar nations, if you step out of line, you get stepped upon, hard. Of course all countries use propoganda, but the difference is, that its entirely up to ourselves whether or not we believe it. We have plenty of sources to make our own minds up, whereas the residents of N.Korea have very few. Thats not down to apathy, but to government supression.

If a teacher was nearby and a kid started rambling off at a tangent, saying it was a war against Muslims, the teacher’s going to step-in and correct the child isn’t she? Conform to the norm.

Of course she would, but then in this country she wouldn't run the risk of having to inform on the child's parents for holding non-conformist views.

Also if you believe that the last few wars have been anything to do with religion, IMO you're sadly mistaken.

 

[Scouse]

Totally agree with you there m8.

Having said that - China's a thinly-veiled version of the same thing - but we're ready to trade like bastards with them.....

 

[xane]

It's similar to the anti-communist sentiment in the west after WWII (commie witch-hunts etc.).

Seeing as dear old Uncle Joe Stalin went on to kill off 20 million people under communism I'd rather think it was correct to oppose it, as we should oppose every nationalistic government. Once the Berlin Wall fell we could all see what a vile and nasty form of political system communism really was, I can't see how any sane person even imagines for a moment that communism can still work in the world.

I don't think capitalism has much going for it, but it's still way better than anything communism had to offer.

The example of the political officer reprimanding the politician is very reminiscent of the recent news involving the UK Official Secrets Act. A lowly civil servant was dragged through the courts charged with....what...??? For essentially, "doing the right thing"? Not conforming to the party-line? Even though everyone could see that what she did was for “good” and not “evil”.

Depends on your point of view, you could say she is simply abusing her position of trust to put forward her political viewpoint, and directly embassing the government in the first place. I personally dont agree that the war was "bad", I think it was fully justified and a lot of other people also think so, despite what you assume about "everyone" thinking otherwise.

"Good" and "Bad" are totally objective here, whereas the Korean position is not the same. A historical work that showed the brutality of life under a tyrannical nationalist regime is being totally warped out of context by, ironically, a tyrannical nationalist regime, there is no argument.

I'm not condoning the North Korean stance here, I don't agree with any of it. I'm simply pointing out that we too are guilty of this shit,

Yeah we're as guilty as hell, I mean they eat chinese food too and hey, so do we, so we must be _exactly_ like them !

 

[Munkey]

So you approve of McCarthyism? Something very much of a risk of happening again now unfortunatley, but not against the commies this time.

 

[tRoG]

Communism is a grand idea, it just isn't carried out very well

It really is amazing what people had to suffer, less than a century ago. Even since then we've made some rather pleasing proccess on the whole "I'll do and say what I like, thanks very muchly." front... but it's still not good enough

Let people do what they like, and it'll be pandemonium.




But maybe that wouldn't be so bad?

 

[Tom]

Communism is a good idea in principle, but it goes against everything that millions of years of evolution have taught us; survival of the fittest.

There is no advantage to be had for an individual to express himself, and improve his lot, if the state takes all of that away. Our form of democracy is by no means perfect, but its the best system of governance that we've yet been able to make work.

Democracy also allows the population of that country to make decisions on whom they want in power. Perhaps if Stalin had not taken over the reins from Lenin, then Russia may have now been a different place. But Stalin's Russia, and every other version of Communism on the planet, rely on a single person making the major decisions, somebody who is in every definition of the word, a Dictator.

Anyway, I've never read Anne Frank's diary, so I might just pop out later and buy it.

 

[xane]

So you approve of McCarthyism? Something very much of a risk of happening again now unfortunatley, but not against the commies this time.

There is always a risk of McCarthyism, stupid argument really.

"Opposing communism" is not the same as McCarthyism.

 

[Paradroid]

Ok, before I present my retort I’d like to remind you of the thread ('cause I think a few peeps lost the thread - no pun intended)…a book (Ann Franks diary) is being used as a propaganda tool in a communist country (North Korea), to which everyone involved so far in the discussion is outraged…I presented an observation which roughly stated that every country does this to it’s own citizens…”I’m not surprised”. I then backed-up my statement by comparing the propaganda exercise with the US commie witch-hunts.

Whether you believe communism is right/wrong, good/bad, it really doesn’t matter, the fact that I was trying to underline was that these things happened, and, they only happened through effective propaganda at that time.

Therefore;

I don't think you can compare the kind of freedom of expression in a country like N.Korea with what we have over here. The main difference is that we have a right to express our opinions in any way we see fit, if you wanted to join the BNP, you might lose a few friends, but nobody has the right to stop you from doing it.

I wasn’t, and, I agree. I said in my original post that I don’t condone anything said about North Korea. The UK is a far more favourable a place to live and work (from a political freedom point of view anyway) than North Korea (I assume – having never even been there).

Of course all countries use propoganda, but the difference is, that its entirely up to ourselves whether or not we believe it. We have plenty of sources to make our own minds up, whereas the residents of N.Korea have very few. Thats not down to apathy, but to government supression.

Ahh, but do you really have a choice, if you are never presented with any real choice in the first place?(philosophical discussion starts here )

… but then in this country she wouldn't run the risk of having to inform on the child's parents for holding non-conformist views.

Again, I don’t condone anything regarding North Korea.

Also if you believe that the last few wars have been anything to do with religion, IMO you're sadly mistaken.

The child saying that the “war was against Muslims” was just an example of a child expressing views out-with the norm (it was oil, as we all know).

Depends on your point of view, you could say she is simply abusing her position of trust to put forward her political viewpoint, and directly embassing the government in the first place. I personally dont agree that the war was "bad", I think it was fully justified and a lot of other people also think so, despite what you assume about "everyone" thinking otherwise.

Ooo, a bad start here. Firstly, I was eluding to Katharine Gun, the lowly civil servant who was brought to court on charges pertaining to the Official Secrets Act – which, if you remember, was all about the illegal bugging of the UN Secretary General Kofi Annan – not the whole war in Iraq. I assume you’re talking about Clare Short, and yes her timing is…well…bolting the proverbial stable doors anyone? Within my context, Katherine Gun did the “good” thing and threw open a political scandal. The “bad” thing would have been to ignore it (can no one relate this to Germany 1930’s?). Imagine you knew your government was breaching international conventions – with the evidence leaning toward an outcome that actually propels us quicker towards war and not peace? (i.e. the only justification that I could see is if it resulted in a peaceful outcome – which it didn’t). Secondly, you think the war was fully justified? Where the hell have you been living?

Wake up FFS!!! Bush signed the order to prepare to invade Iraq a year before they went. Under Clinton, the oil companies were already lobbying congress for regime change in Afghanistan (too much untapped oil in Uzbekistan – pipe it north and you’re paying tax to the ex-soviet block countries, pipe it south and you’ve got a militant Islamic country that needs regime change).

The fact that Bush has a personal connection with the leader of an international terrorist organisation (CIA trained), that started this whole fiasco, should have raised enough eyebrows to throw him out of office and into jail. (Lets just wave flags instead and cheer our brave leaders).

Yeah we're as guilty as hell, I mean they eat chinese food too and hey, so do we, so we must be _exactly_ like them !

Well, we’re all prone to believing the same shit from our industrious leaders aren’t we? (Less one.)

 

[GekuL]

Within my context, Katherine Gun did the “good” thing and threw open a political scandal. The “bad” thing would have been to ignore it (can no one relate this to Germany 1930’s?).

Do you refer to the work the polish did in replicating the enigma machine and eavesdropping on german messages through the 1930s (when Germany were not an enemy)? Information which was then passed on to Britain once the war had started, which most likely shortened the war?

 

[Paradroid]

Do you refer to the work the polish did in replicating the enigma machine and eavesdropping on german messages through the 1930s (when Germany were not an enemy)? Information which was then passed on to Britain once the war had started, which most likely shortened the war?

No, just the general fact that key people must of known and allowed it to go on. And the Polish eavesdropping, did they not, quite rightly, view the Germans as an immediate threat? Of a different scale entirely compared to the US (& UK) v's Iraq, and in reality we were the aggressors. Iraq wasn't going to invade the UK or US, whereas Germany could have invaded Poland in the claimed 45 mins it would have taken Iraq to attack us!

If you're looking for a tree-hugging hippy, keep moving. If I really believed we were actually in danger from terrorists or rogue dictators I'd be decrying their deeds on a webby and waving my flag-of-freedom at the telly. I just see things that are blatantly unfair/untrue/incongruous and I want to see it changed, at least challenged.

:touch:

 

[Gengi]

Hello People,
This thread could become very messy, very quickly , but there seem to be some common thoughts, North Korea is not a good place run by a very bad man, the use of Anne Franks story to further the aims of the government there is a bit below the belt. So far I think most of the respondents are pretty much in agreement. Then it diverges to, the relative merits of communism v's democracy, was Katherine Gun a heroine or a Villain ?, is Claire Short the full shilling ?, how free we are in our nice cosy western democracy as opposed to the downtrodden masses relentlessy slapped down by their oppresive masters in the few communist states left? was the 'war' in Iraq justified ? I think there may be more than one thread here
My own personal POV on some of the above. Katherine Gun should go to jail, no matter if she did the 'right' thing she broke the law, the Official Secrets act is not new, we spy on everyone who may have an influence upon our 'national security' be they friend, foe or neutral, the Americains were probably just asking for access to our source inside the UN . Claire Short, well, see above. Democracy for me, yes I am lied to , yes I am not nearly as free as I am led to believe, but the limited freedom I do have is better than the zero others have. The war in Iraq, justified, purely from a moral point of view considering Saddam Hussein's history, the fact that western democracies helped him earlier does not make it unjustifiable now IMHO, thats almost like letting some one drown when you could save them because they used to beat you up in school.

on

Later

 

[xane]

Iraq wasn't going to invade the UK or US, whereas Germany could have invaded Poland in the claimed 45 mins it would have taken Iraq to attack us!

Germany was not about to invade the UK at the time we declared war and was not seen as a credible threat to our shores, they did not possess the military strength at the time to consider a UK invasion, only after the Battle of France was it realised how strong the German army was.

Iraq invaded two countries, and just as with Germany invading Poland we kicked the crap out of Iraq after they invaded Kuwait and went on to finally depose its leader.

 

[xane]

Ooo, a bad start here. Firstly, I was eluding to Katharine Gun, the lowly civil servant who was brought to court on charges pertaining to the Official Secrets Act – which, if you remember, was all about the illegal bugging of the UN Secretary General Kofi Annan – not the whole war in Iraq.

Clare Short claimed we bugged Annan, Gun leaked an e-mail about the UK helping the US to bug UNSC members, and she claimed this was done "to prevent wide-scale death and casualties among ordinary Iraqi people and UK forces in the course of an illegal war." (source)

 

[xane]

Bush signed the order to prepare to invade Iraq a year before they went. Under Clinton, the oil companies were already lobbying congress for regime change in Afghanistan

Clinton passed the "Iraq Liberation Act" in 1998 to make it American policy to ensure a regime change, this was finally carried out by Bush. This may well have been at the request of the oil companies too, but then again other countries (France, Russia, China) were listening to their oil companies and arguing for the regime to stay for extactly the same reasons, the US is not alone in this manipulation.

There was no concern for a "regime change" in Afghanistan until they were found to be harbouring bin Laden and refused to hand him over. The Clinton administration were already persuing bin Laden in Afghanistan through the 1990s and were sympathetic to the official regime that was being deposed by the Taliban, it was not a case of "regime change" but "regime establishment" (the Taliban were never recognised as the official government).

 

[xane]

Information which was then passed on to Britain once the war had started, which most likely shortened the war?

Not quite true, the original Polish codebreakers had passed their plans on to France prior to the war, and the code breaking team were stationed in France after the invasion of Poland. When France was invaded they were effectively trapped there, they and their machine never reach England.

Britain got only a small amount of information as to the general design of the Enigma before the war, a large part of their success was the surveillance and code cracking teams with their own devices, plus the capture of several Enigma machines throughout the war.

The Germans only redically changed the Enigma once during the war, adding a fourth code wheel, as they believed it to be unbreakable.

 

[Xtro]

A girl who works for me actually believed me when I told her that Anne Frank had only donner kebabs to survive on whilst she was hiding.

This is the same girl who asked me who John Wayne was and that "is it true Salvador Dali is a rock guitarist?"

 

[SoWat]

As I understand it, France actually passed the enigma information onto Poland (I believe it was received from a German traitor), as the two countries had an agreement at the time. A Polish chap then worked out how to crack it by analysing the loops each coded character took. The Poles were reading German cipher traffic for many years prior to the war.

Shortly before the outbreak of war the Germans added two more rotors (so they could use any 3 of 5) and extra plugboard cables which effectively stopped the Poles dead in their tracks. They then decided to pass the information (and hardware) onto Britain and France who had the resources (patricularly Britain) to develop the machinery and talent needed to crack the new Enigma specification. Both countries were astonished that the Poles had managed to crack the early Enigma (I guess having an aggressive neighbour does tend to focus attention to the problem at hand).

France didn't have the time to do much with the information, but the British started up the facility at Bletchley Park, and everyone is familiar with what happened there.

Bottom line is that Britain had a lot of information regarding the Enigma machine at the outbreak of war. However, Enigma changed a lot during the war, and examples of actual devices (particularly Naval ones) were very much sought after.

 

[Tom]

An excellent documentary exists (in four 1 hour long parts) from Channel 4, regarding the Enigma system. Its called Station X, and I think you might still be able to buy it from their website. I bought it mostly for its aesthetic value (its one of the finest and most beautifully produced pieces of television ever IMO), but it does explain quite a lot about what happened.

Apparently, the code-breakers at Bletchley Park were assisted on numerous occasions by the German operators making basic errors. Also, they managed to capture a codebook that helped them crack the naval codes (the German Navy used a different system than the Army).

Anyway, discussing the background behind the 2nd Gulf War will just become a huge merry-go-round, its been argued about many times before, and it always ends with 2 opposing schools of thought, those who thought it was the right thing to do, and those who see a hidden agenda. The point is, in this country, you can stand outside the houses of parliament (or even at the end of Downing Street), waving a placard, and so long as you don't disturb anybody in their daily lives, nobody will touch you.

 

[Paradroid]

Me and my woman have days like these, where we spend ages arguing over a topic, only to discover we both agree on the main points, it's usually the semantics and the way we word our arguments that takes a while to reconcile.

I think everybody agrees that North Korea using the diary of Ann Frank for their political gain is wrong, and that she didn't eat donnar kebabs.

Poland was justified in eavesdropping Germany bacause they posed a direct and immediate threat (well founded too).

Britian was right to declare war on Germany bacause they invaded a friendly country of ours.

The US (& UK & co) attacking Iraq in Gulf War I, was right, because they had invaded a friendly country of ours.

Here is where things get a little shaky:

Was the Gulf War II about terrorists & our freedom, or, about oil & power? (I think, oil & power)

Was the Gulf War II actually neccessary, or, could it have been avoided? (I think, avoided)

Did the Gulf War II make things better or worse for terrorism & our freedom? (I think, worse)

Did the Gulf War II make things better or worse for key western oil men? (I think, better)

Are we justified in spying on other countries with the intent of avoiding a war? (I think, yes)

Are we justified in spying on others countries with the intent of creating a war? (I think, no)

Does Kim Jong-il have insane hair? (I think, yes)

 

[Stazbumpa]

Here is where things get a little shaky:

Was the Gulf War II about terrorists & our freedom, or, about oil & power? (I think, oil & power)

Bit of both to be honest. The war was about acting on information that we had at the time, Saddam's complete lack of compliance for the last 12 years and also diposing a murderer and handing back some sort of control to the Iraqi people, like the oilfields for example.
The reasons for NOT going to war were almost entirely based on non-interevention (fat lot of good it did Chamberlain pre WW2) and also for the oil.
Yes the oil.
France, Russia and China (there may be others) all wanted the oil but were prepared to line Saddam's pockets for it. Us warmongering British and American types, however, stuck to our principles and did not.

Was the Gulf War II actually neccessary, or, could it have been avoided? (I think, avoided)

Definately avoided. If the bloody useless UN hadn't made sure that the coalition would only liberate Kuwait, and leave Saddam in power to remain mad and a potential threat, then I totally agree that the whole Iraq thing would've been resolved in 1992.

Did the Gulf War II make things better or worse for terrorism & our freedom? (I think, worse)

When someone flies 2 jumbo's into 2 buildings I think the time for pussyfooting around and pretending that we can win them over with words is finished. The sooner that people realise this is a war about IDEALS and that the terrorists wish to destroy the western way of life, the better.

Did the Gulf War II make things better or worse for key western oil men? (I think, better)

Of course it did, but would you rather trade with a free(er) Iraq and see the money being invested in the people for a change, or have tea and biscuits with the aforementioned murderer and give him the cash instead?

Are we justified in spying on other countries with the intent of avoiding a war? (I think, yes)

God yes. Couldn't agree more.

Are we justified in spying on others countries with the intent of creating a war? (I think, no)

Agree here too. However if intell says nasty person has nasty weapons and may use it, and nasty person won't play ball, then I'm all for sorting out said nasty person/regime and being safe.
Intell may well be wrong, but what if its right?

Does Kim Jong-il have insane hair? (I think, yes)

Can't comment not seen it.
However North Korea is a fucked up country run by fucked up people.
They scare me.

PS: Anne Frank's diary being used by these muppets is sooooo wrong. Typical of such a regime though if you ask me. Thought I'd include that as its what we talking about originally

 

[RedVenom]

Anyway, I've never read Anne Frank's diary, so I might just pop out later and buy it.

day 5: dind't feel like going out today. stayed in the loft.
day 6: quiet day. in the loft
day 7: sat in the loft, went out and avoided germans, then back to the loft
day 8: read a book. in the loft.

etc.

Anyway, what do you expect from a country that does this:

Blah blah, they're bad. Blah blah.

 

[Dillinja]

Haha, I like that pic.

 

[Tom]

day 5: dind't feel like going out today. stayed in the loft.
day 6: quiet day. in the loft
day 7: sat in the loft, went out and avoided germans, then back to the loft
day 8: read a book. in the loft.

etc.
Blah blah, they're bad. Blah blah.

Nice to see that some people appreciate history. Or not.

 

[RedVenom]

Nice to see that some people appreciate history. Or not.

I know more about WW2 than most people will ever know. But I also know how to make a joke of things because, you know, can't take life too seriously. Especially not when you're locked in an attic.

 

[Tom]

I'm of the opinion that there are lines to be crossed. And I think you're crossing it.