And he seemed such a sensible man...

[dysfunction]

If there was a tiny chance that I would vote for the tories then it is no longer.

David Cameron has severly lost the plot already and he isnt even in power yet!

First it was calling for the scrapping of the Human Rights Act in response to another crime outrage story, even though the act was irrelevant to the case.

Then he was making claims about hospital closures in Norfolk when the local Tory MP popped to point out the Tory leadership was talking utter rubbish.

And now he wants to ban Violent video games!!

Cameron hints at ban on violent video games | Special Reports | Guardian Unlimited Politics

What a twat!

 

[throdgrain]

Scrapping the Human rights act is the best thing any government could do.

 

[dysfunction]

why?

 

[Damini]

Because it is too easily abused by those with a will to do so, and it neglects the rights of the majority in order to appease the few.

 

[Gumbo]

She's right you know.

 

[dysfunction]

I don't think she is...
I think there can be more abuse *without* the Human Rights Act than with it.

Whats wrong with having these things protected by law?:
Article 1: The protection of property
Article 2: The right to life
Article 3: Prohibition of torture
Article 4: Prohibition of slavery and forced labour
Article 5: Right to liberty and security
Article 6: Right to a fair trial
Article 7: No punishment without law
Article 8: Right to respect for private and family life
Article 9: Freedom of thought, conscience and religion
Article 10: Freedom of expression
Article 11: Freedom of assembly and association
Article 12: Right to marry
Article 14: Prohibition of discrimination
Article 16: Restrictions on political activity of aliens
Article 17: Prohibition of abuse of rights
Article 18: Limitation on use of restrictions on rights

 

[Draylor]

Whats wrong with having these things protected by law?

Illegal Romanian* immigrants.

* can be adjusted to your personal flavour of racism.

 

[gunner440]

Illegal Romanian* immigrants.

* can be adjusted to your personal flavour of racism.

Don't be racist Dray. You can't just group up all the Eastern European/Black/White/Yellow people and call them Romanian!

 

[Chilly]

Because all of that stuff is already in UK law, we dont need more laws saying the same stuff over but open to abuse.

If I get burgled at home and I kick the shit into the burglar, I go to prison - maybe even for longer than him if he was on drugs and gets some sympathy votes. How's that for justice?

 

[Wazzerphuk]

Illegal Romanian* immigrants.

* can be adjusted to your personal flavour of racism.

Polish pls!

 

[JBP|]

I think the human rights bill should remain.

However,i believe if you commit a crime against another human (minor assault, burglary,rape,murder and that sort of thing) then it should be considered that you have chosen to give up your rights as a human being and should probably be chained up and forced to live in a kennel or something.

 

[Tom]

Because all of that stuff is already in UK law, we dont need more laws saying the same stuff over but open to abuse.

If I get burgled at home and I kick the shit into the burglar, I go to prison - maybe even for longer than him if he was on drugs and gets some sympathy votes. How's that for justice?

The HRA was recently used to force a local authority to recognise the right of a wife to live with her husband in the same residential care home, a responsibility which the local authority had refused to accept.

There are many cases where the HRA have been used to improve the lives of people, unfortunately the cases that tend to be printed in the press tend to be ones that sell the most papers - the recent (and correct IMO) decision to allow the murderer of the headmaster to stay in the UK is a case in point.

 

[Wazzerphuk]

I think the human rights bill should remain.

However,i believe if you commit a crime against another human (minor assault, burglary,rape,murder and that sort of thing) then it should be considered that you have chosen to give up your rights as a human being and should probably be chained up and forced to live in a kennel or something.

So if I were to slap you round the face, cheekily, you would happily deny any human rights? Stop being stupid. Minor assault (even normal assault) should not be punished by a removal of human rights - nor should burglarly or anything like that. For murderers, rapists, etc. then yes they should (although only if definitive proof or a valid confession is available).

 

[Chilly]

The HRA was recently used to force a local authority to recognise the right of a wife to live with her husband in the same residential care home, a responsibility which the local authority had refused to accept.

There are many cases where the HRA have been used to improve the lives of people, unfortunately the cases that tend to be printed in the press tend to be ones that sell the most papers - the recent (and correct IMO) decision to allow the murderer of the headmaster to stay in the UK is a case in point.

Fair point, but it's still open to abuse and *something* needs to be tweaked for it to be more effective and fairer for those of us who just want to get on with things. Perhaps give judges a bit more discretion with these matters or introduce some supporting legislation to remove some of the loopholes.

/edit - I was talking to a friend of mine who just narrowly missed a driving ban for speeding to the hospital where her father was on his deathbed. She was saying how when she was being sentenced in court, the judges (or magistrates, since it was only a fairly medium grade driving offence) literally were working out what she got by applying a whole load of formulas with multipliers here and there for various things.

This is what happens when politicians are allowed to tell judges what to do and its severely hampering our legal systems. Judges have less and less discretion, they may as well be trained monkeys the way things are going. The whole point of the judiciary is to have a counterpoint to the power of government, and government is slowly eroding that to leave it in a position of ultimate power.

 

[Gamah]

I'd used to vote Tory but people should be able to play and watch what they want.

However, with people getting more and more fed up with yob culture in our society these more extreme views are becoming more popular..

Anyone think of another party that got elected on the back of a depressed and angry nation..I'll give you a clue the leader wasn't fond of Jews.

I'd personally give up a little bit of my freedom if I could walk down the street and not see cnut chavs causing trouble everywhere I look.

 

[nath]

I'd personally give up a little bit of my freedom if I could walk down the street and not see cnut chavs causing trouble everywhere I look.

Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

Someone was bound to say it... Benny was right tbh.

 

[Sharma]

Labours already took a fair bit of our freedoms, what's left?

 

[throdgrain]

How about that scumbag who stabbed that teacher? 15 years on, he's like 28, and we're going to let him out of prison. And no, we're not going to deport him because his human rights will be violated. Oh no. Lets pay him dole money for another 40 years, and national health, and god know what else.

The bloke he stabbed is still dead by the way. His wife is still a widow. His kids still dont have a dad.

What about thier human rights?

 

[Draylor]

Someone was bound to say it... Benny was right tbh.

Even the Americans realised times have changed and that is no longer true after 9/11.

 

[Gamah]

Someone was bound to say it... Benny was right tbh.

Yeah great, compare a 250 year old quote with today's climate. 250 years ago I probably wouldn't give up fuck all, today I would if it meant crime and anti-social cunters could be eradicated.

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." --Albert Einstein

 

[Tom]

How about that scumbag who stabbed that teacher? 15 years on, he's like 28, and we're going to let him out of prison. And no, we're not going to deport him because his human rights will be violated. Oh no. Lets pay him dole money for another 40 years, and national health, and god know what else.

The bloke he stabbed is still dead by the way. His wife is still a widow. His kids still dont have a dad.

What about thier human rights?

What purpose would deporting him serve, except to land him in a country with a language he doesn't speak, with no money, no means of earning money, and the very strong possibility that he'd fall back into a life of crime. Why should Italy put up with that?

Better IMO to keep him here, monitor his progress (if released it would be on licence), and hope that he can make a contribution to society.

Unless you believe that such people cannot be redeemed it would be pointless to even imprison them.

 

[Hawkwind]

Far too many abuses of the Human Rights laws in the UK. Along with Immigration problems the UK is becomming Europes biggest joke.

Example: HR abuse I heard recently on local news.

Polish guys builds a house in the New Forest, up to that point the family were in a caravan. Council gave permission for a single storey building as it is in a area of outstanding natural beauty. The plans they are sent agree with that stipulation. So cut a long story short inspector turns up a few months later and finds a two storey building. He tells them he will be back with an injunction. They carry on building despite the injunction. As soon as the roof is finished they move in and destroy the caravan. Council's injunction to demolish the building is later refused in the High Court under HR laws, families right to a home.

No way I could ever vote Labour. 21 billion extra spent on education in 6 years and what do they have to show for it, apart from easier to pass exams? A Police Force that can't police for fear of upsetting minorities or getting sued by some yobbish family. A legal System withs it's hands tied by HR laws that superseed more sensible ones. We had one of, if not the best legal systems in the world.

About 50% of my UK friends are now looking to leave the country and find jobs abroad. Everyone is fed up with the yob (chav) culture. Nation pride and British culture is dying. How bad does it have to get before people take action.

 

[Raven]

Yeah great, compare a 250 year old quote with today's climate. 250 years ago I probably wouldn't give up fuck all, today I would if it meant crime and anti-social cunters could be eradicated.

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." --Albert Einstein

Theres that anger again...

no need.

Stick to willy jokes.


As for human rights, they should certainly remain, its the law that needs to be changed, you should be allowed by law to defend your property and loved ones, the police should be given more rights to stop and search without people yelling racist. They should stop fucking about with speed cameras, or at least use the money from speed cameras to fund real crime prevention and punishment schemes, its pretty clear by now that the vast majority of people that do go through the process of being reformed just go out to commit crimes again.
I quite like the idea of three strikes and your out like in America. If someone commits 3 crimes (and is convicted) in 3 years they should go to prison for 10 years plus the time for each crime. get rid of parole for all crimes against people. They should also lower the age of criminal consent while also punishing the parents.

 

[throdgrain]

What purpose would deporting him serve, except to land him in a country with a language he doesn't speak, with no money, no means of earning money, and the very strong possibility that he'd fall back into a life of crime. Why should Italy put up with that?

Better IMO to keep him here, monitor his progress (if released it would be on licence), and hope that he can make a contribution to society.

Unless you believe that such people cannot be redeemed it would be pointless to even imprison them.

Mate the purpose is, he wouldnt be able to do anything here. I dont give 2 fucks about anything else.

And no , I wouldnt have imprisoned him.

 

[~Yuckfou~]

What purpose would deporting him serve, except to land him in a country with a language he doesn't speak, with no money, no means of earning money, and the very strong possibility that he'd fall back into a life of crime.

Well Boo Fucking Hoo. Let's hope he ends up in an Italian jail and gets dry fucked in the arse by some Guiseppe.

 

[nath]

Even the Americans realised times have changed and that is no longer true after 9/11.

Rubbish, it's all the more true. It doesn't become less true because times are a bit more challenging.

 

[throdgrain]

So what about my Benny quote Nath?


(And no thats not oo Miss Diane, for anyone old enough to remember)

 

[nath]

What about it?

 

[Damini]

I don't think she is...
I think there can be more abuse *without* the Human Rights Act than with it.

Whats wrong with having these things protected by law?:
Article 1: The protection of property
Article 2: The right to life
Article 3: Prohibition of torture
Article 4: Prohibition of slavery and forced labour
Article 5: Right to liberty and security
Article 6: Right to a fair trial
Article 7: No punishment without law
Article 8: Right to respect for private and family life
Article 9: Freedom of thought, conscience and religion
Article 10: Freedom of expression
Article 11: Freedom of assembly and association
Article 12: Right to marry
Article 14: Prohibition of discrimination
Article 16: Restrictions on political activity of aliens
Article 17: Prohibition of abuse of rights
Article 18: Limitation on use of restrictions on rights

Oh god, yes, I remember those horrible days, pre-1998. I was stealing a neighbours car, after killing said neighbour, first having tortured her by setting fire to her slave, and violating her door locks when... Well, I can't be bothered to continue, but I'm pretty sure most of those things were already filed under "naughty" before the human rights act came along.

Ironically, I think we have had less freedom of thought and expression post 1998, than before it. Also, I'm sure we've seen more slavery in England since then too. Erm... Is Positive discrimination the okay kind? Like good AIDS, bad AIDS?

By the by, I'm not against human rights. I think they're pretty grand, all told. I just think the Human Rights Act is a lousy tool to weild. It needs to be refined, or it needs to be ditched and redesigned from scratch.

 

[Jonty]

Hi guys

With regards human rights, there are clearly good points being made on both sides of the argument, and there are no easy solutions (if there were then there would be no debate).

I'm no expert, but I did study the International Protection of Human Rights at university, and there is one thing you should know: scrapping the Human Rights Act will not solve the problems. Firstly, human rights are an intrinsic part of the modern world. They're tied-in to our relations with Europe and its various institutions, they're interwoven into the United Nations, and they're part of customary international law to which all countries are implicitly party to.

You may be able to scrap the Act (although that in itself may be difficult), but you cannot avoid human rights obligations. Human rights cases in the courts would simply look elsewhere for the precedents they need, so very little would change. The UK would also be under intense political pressure, from the media, non-governmental organisations, Europe, and other international states; thus even non-binding human rights decisions would take on increased meaning, and the UK would be exposed the risk of sanctions.

So in short: scrapping the Act will not solve our current problems (and there are problems), and wishing human rights will just disappear will not happen (nor should it, because there are some good cases reported for all the bad ones). What we should do is focus on clarifying the law so that it isn't so open to abuse. Again, this easier said than done, but at least it's a more constructive use of our time and energy.

Kind regards

Jonty

P.S. I can't say I'm a fan of David Cameron, but then again, many UK politicians leave me 'cold' these days. At least in Taiwan they sometimes have punch-ups in parliament, much to the amusement of the media and everybody else. Maybe this is what we need? Gordon vs. David in a Battle Royale?