Ancient Roman Battle: feedbacks on the attempt

[Tholus]

Well....
Just my first impressions....

Altho we were defeated by an huge number of albs I think there are a few things I have learned tonight:

> Keeping and holding a formation, even a sinple line, is very hard in DAoC.
DAoC is not RTW!
I still think that if done properly (with som training maybe) this kind of movement could compete with the traditional "barbarian horde zerg tactic", but is quite hard to implement.
> We really should use stealthers more in massive RvR, they are invaluable for info gathering
> Coordinating Flank squads is probably the hardest part of the story. I really will have a lot to think about on this point....

Big errors we made (just the firsts that come in my mind):
> The idea of the Stealth CG and the Main Army BG was great. But i could read all the CG info... they were too many. So when i ordered charge to Tower due to the APK clear info was too late to face back
> When a Flank Squad dies and is hidden we must manage a fast rez or an DL regather and re-reach the MA.... dunno how
> Rotating the line..... another hard point.

A side note:
To the stealther killing me at DL before the start: that was hylarius /respect


Thanks to those who come, thanks to the lot that gave me positive feedback and incuragement at the end.

Sorry to those who though I ruined the RvR night, to those who spammed me with "zerger" sentences, to those who kindly insulted me in pm....
Ruining others game was not my intention, but to be honest I think that this game is large enough for everyone. Sometimes i dont like as other people play or stay in the game..... but I just take it easy, and I suggest you to do the same

 

[Boni]

A fun experince overall.. My thoughts...

a). Too short a time. Was very disapointed that we disbaned very early after what felt like half a run. After waiting for grps to form and putting in the effort to organise them, it seemed as soon as we had done this our time was up.

b). MA group leaders need to know their job and stick to the plan, and make sure their grp sticks to the plan. Roman armies did ok cause of the delegation of power down in units of 10 people, much of our interaction was main zerg leader telling everyone what to do. In theory they should only be commanding the group leaders.

c). Failure of b) and chasing caused our wipe, some grps chaced middies at the tower, some faced AMG. More discipline would sort this and that comes from the indiviudal group leaders controlling their grps better.

oh and /wanker (really need an emote for that) at the people who annoyed Tholus, I guess the handfull of enemies we killed really ruined your evenings rvr so much that you had to have a go at someone whos trying to make decent events for those not in 1337 rvr guilds just out for some fun. Pathetic.

 

[odon]

Very good reply Boni.

TBH I was dissapointed to see people even before the event slating it. If you don't want to take part then don't take part and leave those who are putting effort in to try something new to get on with it.

On the whole positive. Just needs work. TBH the flanking groups and dealing with deaths being able to port back to the battle will be dealt with in NF... hence why Tholus has taken the initiative to get Hib ready for this..

Well Done Tholus.

 

[Boni]

Oh and we should be more aware of height advantages if we are using a fairly immobile force and pick better spots. Both our 2 positions for stopping where a bit inferior, first we stopped in the bowl at the lowest point (they get height advantage whatever direction they attack from), then we stopped the other side of AMG, again height advantage lost to the hills on each side.

 

[Khalesh]

Aye all in all a good first attempt at the organised 'army'. As already mentioned there is a lot to fine tune and practice but was a nice event.

Took part in the reconisance grp and i agree we need sort out the lines of communication.

And Thol to those who spamed you with zerger etc etc I ask them this ... we are greatly outnumbered hibbies .. how do you propose we regain our precious power relics when nf hits (or even hold on to the ones reset) if we dont learn to work together.

Peace..... (and sign me up any time for a rerun)

 

[Tzeentch]

whenever i did any kinda mass rvr, i never wanted formations and the like; in my experience, they (formations) are totally useless (except keep/MG warfare, and then for a reason - will elaborate).

what you need to do to co-ordinate mass rvr is think of every group as an individual body, realise that not every group is equal, and in some instances 2-3 groups can equal 1 very well kept group (prime example: DH)

also consider morale/boredom/lack of things to do for people involved, people always want to be doing something, especially when they are present at an 'event' or organised raid, so get them to scout certain areas, loop back etc before 'landing' at the battlefield, keep them informed, explain the reasons for the things you ask them to do (quickly and briefly)

another unfortunate fact is that realmpoints DO matter to people, and people WILL whine/bitch if they get any idea or notion that a certain group is getting more (irregardless of skill, amount of work done, effort put in etc), so try your utmost to balance this out, and if you send a group or two to do a job you would usually send your better groups to do, explain to the group leader the pluses and minuses of the situation - that they can get more rp, but at a higher risk and cost of the group disbanding (boohoo we lost, raid leader sucks)

remember - group leaders are your friends, the guy who really controls the group - talk through him to the group, he's the guy that will help you out more, this guy is your friend.

oh yeah, formations cant work because of (forgot the word) being able to walk through other people, and the only place they WILL work is when you have a significantly lesser amount of the enemy, or in a wall/keep situation, do to the physical walls.

just my 2c.

 

[Enli]

need this ----> Saadyst teh Bard

 

[Danya]

No raid is complete without tzee.
Come back tzee we miss you.

 

[ilaya]

watch Zulu.. think animists.. think advancing line.. another group with a couple animists behind covering.. would that work?..

slow but effective.. pretty much what NF is about innit?

 

[LordjOX]

Was a nice try atleast, and yea formations dont do much in daoc. Maybe havin the main army run with speed would also improve stuff abit, but flanking ofc works like hitting the enemy in the back or sides.

 

[Skynyrd]

I really thought it was gonna work there for awhile. Then ofc i stood in disbelief...no wait thats wrong...disbelief is the wrong word as I was expecting it to happen...

THEN i stood and watched the inevitable charge for rps from greedy hibs, Why is it so hard to hold back just for one night??


Imo the grps shld have been spread just a little more, perfect line formation is not possible i fear, but keeping a loose group setup where u have some to the left and right of main zerg has always been sommat i wanted to see.
In all honesty isn't this what we thought the game would be like when we first played? armies..tactics etc?

Im willing to try this again and again but Tholus my old friend, I fear you're in for a tough time. /hug

 

[Cutri]

watch Zulu.. think animists.. think advancing line.. another group with a couple animists behind covering.. would that work?..

slow but effective.. pretty much what NF is about innit?

Did this many times in BG to re-take CK forcing defenders on the hill to back up and defend from inside, it does work, but like Tholus' tactics requires co-ordination and peeps who listen. (yes I know BG is not like 'real' RvR)

/Respect to Tholus for trying something new and trying to get the realm to work as one

 

[Tigersans]

I thought it was a good effort for a first and yes when i brought daoc all those years ago i thought it was going to be all about big battles realm V realm and last night was fun.

I think the more we do this the more we will improve and may help us in NF at the end of the day, maybe one idea could be to have ranger grps to sides of main army to rain down arrows on enemie before they get in range.

I think it will be a lot of trial and error till we get a set up that works, but was a good first attempt and im up for many more ;-)

 

[Jayce]

I also think that we should use NS's with a bard in thier group to scout (bard stay's hidden in hib side of AMG while NS's scout alb side for example) and keep rangers in the MA groups, so that we have rangers and casters for ranged attacks at the enemy before we can engage in melee (which wont happen often tbh so tanks may start to get bored of this).

To those who turned up thanks guys was a good effort once I started shouting FIRM AND SOLAMNUS TO MY LEFT OTHERS TO MY RIGHT the line seemed to hold better

Keep it going Tholus, NF will help some of the issues you've come accross.

 

[Gear]

A really nice attempt by Tholus and Hibs. I will not put any blame to the hibs that charged in and broke formation. At the end of the day, this is how they/we have been used to play all this time. It is just a matter of habbit and changing it.

Tiger mentioned about rangers. Volley can have a maximum range of 5900 units (don't cry, it gets nerfed) if you take elevation bonuses into accounts. It is also quite devastating as it always penetrates bt, and hits for the normal amount of dmg. Having 2-3 rangers volleying on the same GT, can annihilate the enemy support units. I think our mid friends can verify that, I've seen em do it on keep takes all the time.

However I'm also a believer that those formations are for stand-off battles; alas, we cannot manouver into the open, as the co-ordination required is such that cannot be achieved. However, it is great fun, and count me in for next time as well!

 

[Bultrug]

Tholus .... great effort .... one of the best comments among all the replies was the one stating that most of us, when buying the game, silently had fantasies about battle just like this. I had great fun... right upto the point were all discipline shattered, the line broke and people charged into the alb zerg.

I saw a lot of comments from people at that point stating we were being foolish. These people then abandoned the idea of having a go at organised warfare and ended it all in about 50 secs. Do I blame them? No.

You see, I want to tell these people that this evening was not about rps, but about re-enacting old style warfare, partly for fun, and partly to see if there could actually be a way this could be finetuned to have some in-game use. One of the keys to succes in those days was the immeasurable trust the different cohorts/legions HAD to have in their leader. Look at for instance the Spartans and their likes. These guys would charge into huge numbers of enemies on command of their leader, even if it seemed futile. And they would hold a line even if it would mean sure defeat. They had only one rule... they didn't think for themselves, they did what their commander told them to do. This didnt mean they always won. But that is not the issue, they had a system in which the man leading was the only one that would eventually be responsible for glory or defeat. If he made foolish decisions, so it would have to be.

I dont blame the guys that werent liable to go along with this from the start, and I dont blame the ones who charged because, well... that is also part of history and many large armies have fallen exactly because of this, so come to think of it .. I'd say the experiment wasnt really a failure from a historical point of view.

This isnt a lecture of some sort, just my thoughts on the whole matter. I dont mean to say we could have beaten the alb army, but my gawd, how I had hoped to be more like those fearless Spartans on monday. Only thing I like to point out is this. If would have been in a real battle centuries ago .. I would have prolly done the same thing. The fact that this is a computergame in which we dont actually loose our lives when we get pwned give us a great chance to try and maintain the discpline of just following the leader's orders so that we can ... erm.... bite the dust in a disciplined way. Now tell me that is not a cool thing to try and acomplish, even if it is for just once.

Some statements/thoughts:

1. Formations dont work in DAoC because people can travel through eachother. That's a very good point.. however .. if the line consists of specific sorts of classes (pb-ers, with our without guard, for instance) it can be made pretty hard to penetrate. Furthermore the fact that holding a line doesnt work ... doesnt mean that formations dont work. I think ...

2. All the great commanders of the old days that had succes had one thing in common. They knew their subleaders like their own family. If we want this to go even better ... we should try assigning group leaders to all groups that you know yourself Tholus, that will improve things alot I think. These people will know what positions they have to maintain relative of eachother and their leader when moving etc, and can be briefed in advance with respect to certain commands and expectations. But prolly pretty hard to get that organised.

3. Someone mentioned the need for delegation. Good point .. goes for the point of communication as well ....

4. The majority of your numbers go into the MA groups and you use small flanking grps. While this is great for defense where one waits for the agressor to attack your MA and then have the flanks move in at a later stage, its a bit less effective on attacking where all the numbers in your MA just stand there and dont deal any damage and you let the flanking groups attack. I think maybe let the MA be more offensive and actually deal some damage with all those numbers, assisted by the flanks after initial contact. this also takes care of the need for people to get more action and rps.

5. The flanking grps need to be bigger. First of all, in your system you let the flanking grps attack while holding the line still. If you dont use your MA and just keep them put, this is the equivalent of sending 1 FG (or 2 if they can attack simultaneously) to zerg an entire army... isn't it? Second of all .. unfortunately this isnt a real staged one army on one army battle .... we have to remind ourselves that apart from our attempts there is still rvr going on.. and the flanking groups will stumble upon rogue groups while manouvering that will whipe them if they are only 1 FG.

There are going to be a lot of people that will think of me as a retard for spending the time to write such a post. I dont care .. I took the effort, just to show Tholus my respect for at least having a go at something like this. Even if it is totally unsuitable for this type of game, I think you absolutely rock for having tried this ..

Morael 50 Druid.

 

[Ogen]

whenever i did any kinda mass rvr, i never wanted formations and the like; in my experience, they (formations) are totally useless (except keep/MG warfare, and then for a reason - will elaborate).

Afaik these formations means running side-by-side as an example.. This prevent more then about 1-2 fgs to get messed in case of the zerg being attacked... Thats not "Useless" to me imo.

Btw Great orginizing Tholus. We need leaders like you and much less "We are to 1337 to zerg guilds", especially in NF .. If we wants to have just a small chance of holding on to our relics...

 

[Tzeentch]

mm, i was referring more to actual combat formation, as opposed to marching/travel formation.. if it is as you say then i agree.. i simply got that impression from hold the line / turning on the line etc.

 

[Jayce]

mm, i was referring more to actual combat formation, as opposed to marching/travel formation.. if it is as you say then i agree.. i simply got that impression from hold the line / turning on the line etc.

It was a combination of both tbh. Having a horizontal (facing the enemy) line of groups who are not to close to avoid mezz, then turning then to face a potential threat from either side is like moving a combat formation, i.e not easy.

 

[Ogri]

Excellent fun!

Sure, there were faults, but Rome wasnt built in a day, nor were its armies.
I particularly like the willing co-operation prior to entering emain bowl, shows what can be achived if we work at it. But the friendly spirit which went along with the event made it a memorable experience.

Thx Tholus and DA, looking forward to next time.

 

[Byssa]

The line formation could be carried out proberly but it requires a tatic terrain advantage. Ie in a valley or amg.The other factor is teh lack of commuincation between teh stealth group and the Main group we need 1 or 2 very pro active people with BG access. Also its the 1st time round and it was quite successful. Flank squad shouldnt run off to kill target they 1st see we need to hold the flank and the formation. ideally the line formation would work if we had archers and casters behide the main line volleying and other things and NS and BM clearing anyone that get thougth the line.

We need to look at the landscape mainly using that to our advantage.
We could also look at blanket of cover ML10 ablitie NS have to set up ambush for flank groups.Just another possiblity but pratice makes prefect we jsut need to not be like alb zerging at 1st enemy we see. Hold teh Ranks

So 2 key points

Communication*
Setup of formation*