An offshoot from the /assist thread

[Urgat]

I read through the assist thread with interest... and a comment in there reminded me of something i have thought for a long time now.

What would the effect be if the following happened...

All damage effects / Healing effects Reduced by 50% (this includes DPS from weapons etc)

Everything else remainded the same.


So... what you have is people with the same hit points, taking half as much damage, and healers healing half as much.


I cannot think of a reason this would not work to increase the overall length of fights, no longer would people die in seconds to the "train"

Fights would last longer, and give people more chance to react and affect the outcome.


Although ultimatly, wow sucked end game. The various large battles i was involved in were fun affairs, often lasting for a long time, going backwards and forwards etc etc... simply because of the damage/HP ratios that toons were capable of.

Thoughts?

 

[Chronictank]

increase hp and lower dmg will make rvr more about numbers than it already is,
at the moment if you have opted grps leading big raids you can do enough dmg before dying to make the numbers even.
Draw out fights and you will make numbers the only thing to matter in a zerg war

 

[leviathane]

So... what you have is people with the same hit points, taking half as much damage, and healers healing half as much.


I cannot think of a reason this would not work to increase the overall length of fights, no longer would people die in seconds to the "train"

Fights would last longer, and give people more chance to react and affect the outcome.

Long live the zerg warfare then. Say good bye to what most ppl RvR for, the fg v fg fights.

 

[leviathane]

Although ultimatly, wow sucked end game. The various large battles i was involved in were fun affairs, often lasting for a long time, going backwards and forwards etc etc... simply because of the damage/HP ratios that toons were capable of.

Get higher RR and learn some kite tactics, can help improve your battle duration.

 

[Jenk]

So you two are both happy in the knowledge that whoever clicks their mezz button first has won the fight? You'd rather just have the fight last a few seconds?

kk..

And this "I want FG vs FG" debacle is getting tired, adapt ffs.. expand and get a second group to join you.

 

[Chronictank]

So you two are both happy in the knowledge that whoever clicks their mezz button first has won the fight? You'd rather just have the fight last a few seconds?

kk..

And this "I want FG vs FG" debacle is getting tired, adapt ffs.. expand and get a second group to join you.

far as i can see its the zerg people whining about dying,
fg'ers will always adapt faster than the casual gamers,
but back to the point, increase hp and reduce dmg will result in numbers only, not mez, not tactics just who has the bigger zerg

 

[Phoebee-v-]

far as i can see its the zerg people whining about dying,
fg'ers will always adapt faster than the casual gamers,
but back to the point, increase hp and reduce dmg will result in numbers only, not mez, not tactics just who has the bigger zerg

doubt that. just make the fights last abit longer. Both isn't needed but 1 should be really sweet and to not effect PvE that much a increase overall with like 10-20% hits shouldn't change that much other then the fact that you can't steam roll a fg in 3sec....

Risk of more adds while having fg vs fg sure cause the duration of the fights but bigger zerg I think not. More hits won't change that people run as a zerg and whom doesn't.

 

[Urgat]

hmm

I understand what your saying...

A coup[le of points...

1 - Get higher RR and learn some kite tactics, can help improve your battle duration.

Personally, i dont have a problem myself... i play one of the more survivable classes... was thinking from the POV of others tbh.


2 - increase hp and lower dmg will make rvr more about numbers than it already is,
at the moment if you have opted grps leading big raids you can do enough dmg before dying to make the numbers even.
Draw out fights and you will make numbers the only thing to matter in a zerg war


I am not sure this is true, an opted group will still have the advantage of tactics and sheer skill... no? the kill ratio will remain the same... currently, opted groups farm zergs... if we assign this an arbitary number (for the sake of comparison) eg - 3:1 kill ratio. This ratio wont change because of the above change will it? He uber group will still be able to kill 3:1 since the enemy is doing reduced damage as well... it will just take longer.. no?



3 - Say good bye to what most ppl RvR for, the fg v fg fights.

OK, who said that "Most people" play for 8v8? that statment is simply not true... sure you may play for it... but the zergs in all three realms last night, and the contant siege warfare present on glast... tells me otherwise tbh.



4 - ut back to the point, increase hp and reduce dmg will result in numbers only, not mez, not tactics just who has the bigger zerg


Really? i cant see how... please explain to me how reducing all delves/dps/end cost and power costs by 50%, will encourage zergs?




And finally...

Even if what you say is true... so what?

Why should 8 people be able to destroy an army of 30, in less than 10 seconds? its rediculus imo.

 

[Phoebee-v-]

Why should 8 people be able to destroy an army of 30, in less than 10 seconds? its rediculus imo.

What he said. I mean I have seen what reaver bombs can do to a nice setup, I have done my fair share of zerg kill with fg but thing, is as allways when I write , out of support POV give us a bigger chance to extend the fights. Even if I ain't interupted and got 10 casting spd and about 340 dex wh1 and 25 healing bonus I can't keep up the healing on a singel target even if I do pre-healing at some time cause of the insane damage output that some classes got. (We take the whine about balancing classes and damage output from some classes in a other topic cause that isn't what this is about)

Increase the chance of support actually doing the support job.

Thats just my 5 cents as healer/bard POV and Savage/Warlock POV of damage. Those are just exampel classes that I have played and found some "problems" with.

Let the flame feast begin....

 

[Naetha]

Come classic tbh - great fg vs fg fights as well as the odd three ways and occasional zergs. And the best thing, is that the fights can last for ages, which really brings skill into it.

 

[Chronictank]

reducing dmg means more bodies would arrive at said spot before the people who were there are dead. A zerg never arrives all at one time they trickle in gradually in a minuite or so because of lag etc, therefore by the time the next lot have arrived the first lot are dead. This means that the smaller force has a chance of winning. Increase survivability (like toa and NF did) and it became about sheer numbers as people lived longer, therefore the smaller force will lose by default regardless of what "skill" thye use. Further increase this and it will be simply moving bodies from 1 place to the other.

The proof that rvr is now more about numbers than anything else is in the game now, since NF came out how many times have you seen a smaller zerg kill a bigger one?

Notice i havent mentioned full groups at all, they are pretty irrelevant in the broad scale of things as it is, your example of killing 30 people with 1 full group is also a load of crap. The only way a fg will kill 30 people is if they were to bomb them, which means you are relying on 30 people to be standing close together in a very small area. If thats the case its their own stupidity that has resulted in them losing or it is 30 people who really need to learn how to use those interupts they have been blessed with.

As for classic, its boring imo.

 

[Pirkel]

Draw out fights and you will make numbers the only thing to matter in a zerg war

And this is wrong why? Sounds pretty realistic and fair to me.

 

[Pirkel]

Long live the zerg warfare then. Say good bye to what most ppl RvR for, the fg v fg fights.

Bullshit

Just cause most people that like to play 8 vs 8 hang out in IRC and are active and loud on forums doesn't mean that they are a majority.

Truth is that most people don't bother with RvR a lot unless it's in fg vs fg cause anything less then an opted fg will just instadie 3 times and then disband/log/go wow. Maybe dragging the fights out longer would allow more people to enjoy rvr which in the long term would be good for the game.

 

[xanir]

This has been done to death far too many times - mythic even put a 20% dmg reducing patch on pend, but it never went live. While it might be helpful to fullgroup and zerg fights, it completely screws up classes like assassins that need to drop people quickly. It's also a huge nerf to solo casters, as they rely on dropping their target before it gets to them.

 

[Chronictank]

And this is wrong why? Sounds pretty realistic and fair to me.

instead of not going rvr as you say (which is crap if you saw the rescent insta rvr/keep takes there were more than enough people there), they will quit just as they did not too long ago with 6 relics because they could simply outzerg mid or hib.

Some people have very short memories tbh

 

[Jenk]

reduce damage for grouped players only? Haven't given this a huge amount of thought.. but it would also help against BB'ers?

 

[Urgat]

hmm

SOme more interesting statements...


1 - The proof that rvr is now more about numbers than anything else is in the game now, since NF came out how many times have you seen a smaller zerg kill a bigger one?


And this is bad why?

At the end of the day, this game is Designed (YES... DESIGNED) around large scale fights, often involving siege warfare. LIke it or not... thats the truth.

Often in war... YOu need a larger force to defeat your opponent. Thats the way war works sometimes.



2 - This has been done to death far too many times - mythic even put a 20% dmg reducing patch on pend, but it never went live. While it might be helpful to fullgroup and zerg fights, it completely screws up classes like assassins that need to drop people quickly. It's also a huge nerf to solo casters, as they rely on dropping their target before it gets to them.

In no way, is this game designed and/or balanced to fill the needs of soloers, please see above comment.

(especially not solo casters.)


What i am talking about is large scale, big... WARS.


Keep talking

 

[Celestino]

assisting counters the insane healpower of mainhealers after the introduction of spreadheals, to kill before the target can be healed...
If you reduce both healing and damage all you'd do is give the support more time to heal... making it nearly impossible to kill anyone while healers have mana coz the chance of them beeing free from interrupt to get 1-2 healspells out to negate all the damage the train has done so far is virtually doubled.

All this stuff about remove assist or reducing overall effectivness is pure bs, the system is built upon a number of factors and if u don't like the way it is atm don't think changing one of those factors will improve it without screwing up all balance there was up to now

 

[Pirkel]

Some people have very short memories tbh

Irony!

 

[Rolv]

SOme more interesting statements...
1 - The proof that rvr is now more about numbers than anything else is in the game now, since NF came out how many times have you seen a smaller zerg kill a bigger one?


And this is bad why?

At the end of the day, this game is Designed (YES... DESIGNED) around large scale fights, often involving siege warfare. LIke it or not... thats the truth.

Often in war... YOu need a larger force to defeat your opponent. Thats the way war works sometimes.

Have you forgotten about how it was at NF patch? If everything is about numbers, the realm with the largest population (Alb) will always win, take all the relics and take all the keeps... It will destroy the spirit of the game. Mythic made changes to fix this, so wouldnt it be silly to give a patch or something to change things so it relay more to numbers again? If I remeber right warlock and bainshee was designed to help the outnumbered (hibs, mids) in zerg-fights.

I really dont see the problem about how it is atm. Yes when I was rr2, I played like a headless chicken and died like a fly, but then I realized its all about avoiding the things that insta kills u. Instead of charging a caster front vs front from 1500+ range (as a tank), wich is suicide, I sneak in, or trick the caster, so I get in melee range and then kills it.

As fg vs fg, how fun would it be if nobody died? It can take a while to even kill a caster, even when ur in a assist train, when ur enemies got lots of healing power and abbilites etc. And if you get 10+ ppl hitting you at once, is it so weird that you insta die? Rather try avoid getting so many to zerg u...

 

[Chronictank]

Irony!

elaborate

 

[Urgat]

assisting counters the insane healpower of mainhealers after the introduction of spreadheals, to kill before the target can be healed...
If you reduce both healing and damage all you'd do is give the support more time to heal... making it nearly impossible to kill anyone while healers have mana coz the chance of them beeing free from interrupt to get 1-2 healspells out to negate all the damage the train has done so far is virtually doubled.

All this stuff about remove assist or reducing overall effectivness is pure bs, the system is built upon a number of factors and if u don't like the way it is atm don't think changing one of those factors will improve it without screwing up all balance there was up to now

Clearly you did not read the origional premise...

Heals also would be reduced in effectivness, thus means in relative terms, both damage and healing would be scaled the same.

yes, people woyld take less damage, and thus take longer to kill, but healers wouls also be healing for the same percentage less... so would take longer to heal someone to full.

i say it again... Fights would become longer, allowing for more options, more rection time... and <gasp> more tactics... (other than charge - CC - Assist dead - rinse - repeat)

People woiuld actually have to make desisicions about who to interupt, who to cc (and re cc once imunity was gone), who to focus on, who to ignore... etc etc etc..

instead of this.. "pick a target, dead in seconds" model we have now.

 

[Thorwyn]

In no way, is this game designed and/or balanced to fill the needs of soloers, please see above comment.

That´s certainly true, but on the other hand, it can´t be a solution to crush entire classes with a single change. Mythic designed assassin classes (one of the three archetype classes - balancewise) and gave them abilities that are making them undesirable for group or large scale RvR, so they now have to do something to keep them worth playing. No assassin class is viable anymore when it takes 30 seconds to kill the random afk mage in the courtyard of a keep.
While toying around with damage reduction sounds like a nice idea on the paper, it will drag an entire rat tail of side effects behind and will generally just fight symptoms. In my opinion, it would be MUCH more effective to adjust the old archetype pattern that went out of hand at some point... the caster > tank > assassin > caster.

 

[Rolv]

No, it will be easier to heal, because it makes it much easier for healers to react (they got longer time to react).

 

[living]

Diden't read it all so don't know if it was mentioned, but by lowering damage on all weapon/spells you also screw over all people who depend on killing before the target gets close (some mages, archers etc.).
Stealther's crit line will get even more pointless because they depend on the high damage to take you out before you get them in their weak armor, you might as well remove it and have them all spec dual wield.

In short, it will completely change the balance in the game, don't think people haven't thought of this from the game was released. Fact is that it was spellcrafting and whatever after that changed the pace of combat, wasen't like this back when people ran with 95% qual weapons - but it was also usually the zerg's who won back then too :]

I never ran much in OP'ted FG's, but i have tried it and I know people who do it on regular basis. And by saying tactic's dont mean much in RVR today just show how incredibly clueless you are about RVR Tactic's and playstyles mean incredibly much when it comes to 2 hardcore grps fighting - and good healer who knows how to kite/stand out to not get noticed can easily turn the tide of a fight (seen 8v8 fights last up to 10mins on TOA servers recently too)

 

[living]

Forced to give credit to Rjendug - he's group i often watch playing :] (should be possible to edit anytime imo)

 

[Celestino]

Clearly you did not read the origional premise...

Heals also would be reduced in effectivness, thus means in relative terms, both damage and healing would be scaled the same.

yes, people woyld take less damage, and thus take longer to kill, but healers wouls also be healing for the same percentage less... so would take longer to heal someone to full.

i say it again... Fights would become longer, allowing for more options, more rection time... and <gasp> more tactics... (other than charge - CC - Assist dead - rinse - repeat)

People woiuld actually have to make desisicions about who to interupt, who to cc (and re cc once imunity was gone), who to focus on, who to ignore... etc etc etc..

instead of this.. "pick a target, dead in seconds" model we have now.

I did read ur post but it looks like you missed my point coz for some reason u seem to think there is a 1:1 heal / damage ratio. Infact its everything but that, a mainhealer can outheal quite a number of attackers if he is free even without having los using spreadheals or with los using 2.1 castime heals for 1000+ hp.
So even now, whenever a healer is free and reacts on time he negates what 3-4 others have been doing in the last round with 1 action. The only way to prevent that is to interfere with the healing process for example by interrupting or dealing enough damage to kill before the healer has a chance to react and cast.
Lag when running, various forms of cc etc are in the healers favor delaying the damage
If you add an overall effectivness decrease it will be really easy to outheal pretty much anything due to the increased survivability of the targets allowing u to heal in time...

As i said, there are multiple factors you need to consider

 

[Flimgoblin]

longer fights = better imo.

And if the 3fg kills your 8man slower then you have more time to do the killing

Only problem is a 50% cut in damage is a nerf to range - when you have limited time to do your damage before being interrupted having that damage halved means you're less likely to be able to kill before ending up in melee with something.

 

[Succi]

Why should 8 people be able to destroy an army of 30, in less than 10 seconds? its rediculus imo.

Because if they do , theyre probably better players who have spent longer on their characters .. you want handicaps for people now or something ?

 

[Andrilyn]

Tbh remove all buff lines (Nurt/Enh/Aug) and give everyone Vamp type initial buffs, replace the buff lines with a 'Protect' line same as in GW with Prots and disenchants.
Fights will take longer than as you can't be killed in a instant with button mashing people but you need to actually have some skill and remove the right protections before you can kill someone.

Would also make /assist useless as if someone is loaded on prots good luck killing him with an assist train.
But then again this would solve too much problems ergo Mythic will not do this (will remove the use of buffbots and will make fights longer/more interresting and fights will get more skill dependant).