Americans are violent

[old.Tohtori]

Get fucking real, you absolute tosser.

I am real, really not needed to convert to your opinion.

lol, you spent 1 night in jail and make statements like that?

and here i actually thought you had a point.

Yeah it's a point, maybe not the one you were hoping for, still a point.

90 days in jail is no parkwalk.

 

[- English -]

I am real, really not needed to convert to your opinion.



Yeah it's a point, maybe not the one you were hoping for, still a point.

90 days in jail is no parkwalk.

maybe not to the innocent .. but to the guilty its nothing.

 

[old.Tohtori]

maybe not to the innocent .. but to the guilty its nothing.

I wouldn't say that. If you're a repeat offender and have a history in sitting behind abrs, sure. But if you're a fresh face, especially one who is used to outdoors, it's not gonna be just "Oh i'll sit on my arse for three months and continue what i do".

 

[old.Tohtori]

Oh and just as an added point; if my stance that 90 days is harsh enough punishment is invalid and "not real" as stated, due to me not spent 90 days in jail, it also makes any opinion on 90 days not being enough invalid.

So in the end, do we have someone who spent 3 months in jail here?

If not, close discussion because obviously we can't discuss anything we haven't experienced /sarcasm

 

[DocWolfe]

I once experienced gang rape.

 

[ford prefect]

Oh and just as an added point; if my stance that 90 days is harsh enough punishment is invalid and "not real" as stated, due to me not spent 90 days in jail, it also makes any opinion on 90 days not being enough invalid.

So in the end, do we have someone who spent 3 months in jail here?

If not, close discussion because obviously we can't discuss anything we haven't experienced /sarcasm

I haven't spent a single day in prison, but I work closely with people in prison and in police custody constantly, often very vulnerable people too, and frankly your talking crap. I am sorry, but 90 days is nothing for an offence like that. Someone capable of that level of violence and cruelty with obvious theory of mind is going to learn nothing in 90 days.

A prison sentence isn't just about punishment, it is supposed to be about rehabilitation. I'm sorry but you don't have the first clue about what you are actually talking about here.

 

[DocWolfe]

I haven't spent a single day in prison, but I work closely with people in prison and in police custody constantly, often very vulnerable people too, and frankly your talking crap. I am sorry, but 90 days is nothing for an offence like that. Someone capable of that level of violence and cruelty with obvious theory of mind is going to learn nothing in 90 days.

A prison sentence isn't just about punishment, it is supposed to be about rehabilitation. I'm sorry but you don't have the first clue about what you are actually talking about here.

Don't worry it's not his first time.

 

[old.Tohtori]

I'm sorry but you don't have the first clue about what you are actually talking about here.

Then neither do you.

Not to mention, i still can't be talking crap as it's an opinion.

But hey, nothing is right unless everyone agrees with you eh?

 

[- English -]

I wouldn't say that. If you're a repeat offender and have a history in sitting behind abrs, sure. But if you're a fresh face, especially one who is used to outdoors, it's not gonna be just "Oh i'll sit on my arse for three months and continue what i do".

you disagreed with my point then agreed with it.

I said it may be a hard punishment for an innocent person .. ie for something you havent done .. but for a repeat offender .. 90 days is nothing. I shalln't go into what and wouldn't be worth commiting a crime for, but for something like that (fyi i haven't even watched the video as it will make me sick from the comments ive seen, and ive imagined whats in it), imo, 90 days isn't enough.

 

[soze]

I have not and will not watch the video. I hate cruelty to animals but if you eat meat or wear leather you support the slaughter of animals. PETA ect say even a bolt gun to the spine is not a instant and painless death so while i eat meat and wear leather shoes i will not judge.

And as for 90 days American law does not classify a cows life as being worth that of a human so you will never see punishment of the same severity, that being said Michael Vick got 12-18 months for dog fighting so it could have been worse.

 

[ford prefect]

Then neither do you.

Not to mention, i still can't be talking crap as it's an opinion.

But hey, nothing is right unless everyone agrees with you eh?

No, not when you are talking about something that has been my career for the past ten years, working with violent offenders, I know because I do, you have an ill informed opinion based on spending a night in custody. Simple as that really.

 

[old.Tohtori]

you disagreed with my point then agreed with it.

I said it may be a hard punishment for an innocent person .. ie for something you havent done .. but for a repeat offender .. 90 days is nothing.

I disagreed with the innocent part. It's not limited to just innocent, but also people who do wrong and get locked up.

No, not when you are talking about something that has been my career for the past ten years, working with violent offenders, I know because I do, you have an ill informed opinion based on spending a night in custody. Simple as that really.

Career or not, it doesn't effect what you or i would find a suitable punishment.

I have my opinion on it, you can have yours, but my opinion on the amount is no more bullshit then yours.

You assume i base it on just spending a night in jail(which is btw more then you have). I could work in a ferrari team in the pits, but it wouldn't mean i knew what it felt like to drive it.

Hwo would you know how it feels to be locked up, to imagine you won't get out, if you haven't been?

 

[old.Tohtori]

But yeah, no point in continuing that further. I've said my opinion on it, if you want to discuss it, go ahead. Will give no notice to the trolls though.

People really should learn that "you're full of shit" or "You don't know what you're talking about" are not good ways to discuss things.

 

[ford prefect]

Hwo would you know how it feels to be locked up, to imagine you won't get out, if you haven't been?

Among other things I often spend 14 hours a day locked in a cell councelling people who are on suicide watch, trust me whan I say I have seen it all and encountered literally the worst things humanity has to offer.

Part of my job is to help people through what you are describing here. I am very good at it, but it doesn't raise a moments sympathy, mainly because what you are describing here is part of the punishment, it is also a useful tool to help a dp on the road to rehabilitation. I have seen people given light sentences for things like this, and I've seen them come back later with much longer sentences and a wake of misery in tow. It isn't a big step from this kind of cruelty to something much worse, trust me.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Among other things I often spend 14 hours a day locked in a cell councelling people who are on suicide watch, trust me whan I say I have seen it all and encountered literally the worst things humanity has to offer.

Part of my job is to help people through what you are describing here. I am very good at it, but it doesn't raise a moments sympathy, mainly because what you are describing here is part of the punishment, it is also a useful tool to help a dp on the road to rehabilitation. I have seen people given light sentences for things like this, and I've seen them come back later with much longer sentences and a wake of misery in tow. It isn't a big step from this kind of cruelty to something much worse, trust me.

You're mistaking me giving sympathy here. Yes, it's part of the punishment, that was my point exactly. It's quite a daunting feelign to think you'll lose all your freedoms. I doubt you've felt that if you haven't had the experience.

I've visited cells too and imagining things and how hard they can be is one thing, but to actually be put in that position is quite another. Kind of like an abusive father, you can imagine how it feels, but you have to live it to know.

You can't assume people will take the next step though, or that 90 days isn't enough, simply due to "seeing worse things". That's why laws work as they do, just punishment for action. It's the amount of time that is considered as fitting. If it's not, it's not, but you can't punish those who DO learn, by the standards of those who don't learn.

This is neither here nor there though, as it still comes down to opinion on what is suitable and that can't be called anything but an opinion. Don't have to like it, but it's still as valid as any other opinion.

 

[Ch3tan]

once again I have to painfully side with toht here, an animals life is not worth that if a humans, and if you believe otherwise you must be a PETA supporting vegan. If not, shut up an stop your hypocrisy.

 

[Marc]

once again I have to painfully side with toht here, an animals life is not worth that if a humans, and if you believe otherwise you must be a PETA supporting vegan. If not, shut up an stop your hypocrisy.

Not only are you siding with him, you sound just like him in that its only your opinion that counts and if we dont agree then we are wrong. For the record, I think that animals and humans should be treated the same, but im not a PETA supporting vegan so that kinda disproves your bullshit eh

 

[- English -]

Not only are you siding with him, you sound just like him in that its only your opinion that counts and if we dont agree then we are wrong. For the record, I think that animals and humans should be treated the same, but im not a PETA supporting vegan so that kinda disproves your bullshit eh

i agree with nick .. oops i mean marc

(is that slogan still cool?;p)

Some strange reason i hate animal creulty more than I hate human creulty. Saying that i havent witnessed much human cruelty except idiots fighting each other and stuff. What i dislike is, the fact animals have no say in it and are just often abused with no means to stop it. Humans usually have the ability to get out of things. Obviously not in all cases though.

 

[old.Tohtori]

and if we dont agree then we are wrong.

Now that IS bullcrap. When did i ever say you're wrong, or that anyone here is wrong in their opinion.

I think you'll find it quite the opposite. In ANY given discussion here.

Only place i even suggested it was with a big old /sarcasm mark.

 

[Olgaline]

Toht likes to beat up defenseless animals...

how hush you lot...is that really so wrong ?

afterall they arent human beings, so surely it's ok ?

 

[old.Tohtori]

Toht likes to beat up defenseless animals...

Oh come on, even you can't be so stupid to think i said anything remotely like that.

No wonder people get annoyed at what i say when they see some magical words that are never said. Most likely due to the stupid mentality of "if you don't agree, you're agsinst me!".

 

[kiliarien]

Fixed it for you:

I have my opinion on it, you can have yours, but my opinion is clearly more important.

You assume i base it on just spending a night in jail(which is btw more then you have). I could work in a ferrari team in the pits, but it wouldn't mean i knew what it felt like to drive it. Hwo would you know how it feels to be locked up, to imagine you won't get out, if you haven't been?

Big man, night in jail. :worthy:

By that ideology, just the one night in jail is meant to seem terrifying? Don't get me wrong, I'm sure it is - but this level of planned malevolence (don't forget it wasn't one occasion, it was over a month) needs some serious time behind bars and a chance of rehabilitation. In a way you're advocating smaller jail time for crimes because "it's scary."

Also don't forget re-offending rates; they're so high in most developed countries that criminals don't have a problem serving the time, and in some cases it's institionalised (Shawshank Redemption anyone? - silly example but gets the point across.)

I don't know a solution to the hipocrisy caused by outrage to animal cruelty - it seems to take mild loving people and make them exceptionally aggressive towards animal cruelty offenders in a disproportionate manner. It's an odd societal trait in developed societies.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Fixed it for you:

Big man, night in jail. :worthy:

By that ideology, just the one night in jail is meant to seem terrifying? Don't get me wrong, I'm sure it is - but this level of planned malevolence (don't forget it wasn't one occasion, it was over a month) needs some serious time behind bars and a chance of rehabilitation. In a way you're advocating smaller jail time for crimes because "it's scary."

Also don't forget re-offending rates; they're so high in most developed countries that criminals don't have a problem serving the time, and in some cases it's institionalised (Shawshank Redemption anyone? - silly example but gets the point across.)

So you changed a quote just to fit you? How smart. Hopefully people click the link and read the real post. I NEVER claim your opinion is wrong, i've actually said several times that you're very well entitled to it. Now my opinion on the other hand...well...look at some replies and you tell me, is it really ME who claims others have a wrogn opinion?

"In a way" i'm advocating no such thing as smaller jail times, stop putting words in my mouth. All i claimed is that 90 days is enough.

Never claime i was some "big man" either, just said that if you haven't spent one night, you don't know the feeling. So even if it's just one night, it gives more of an image(even if just by 0.01%) of being locked up for a long time then someone who hasn't even been that one night.

And about repeat offending, as i said, you can't judge all on the assumption of repeat offending, you HAVE TO judge everyone equally.

By the by; nice contradiction with "By that ideology, just the one night in jail is meant to seem terrifying? Don't get me wrong, I'm sure it is"

EDIT:

To give some perspective, all i said is "i think 90 days is enough" and "One night in jail might change the perspective on 90 days being a pisstake"

It's now been turned into "You're all wrong wankers!" and "I like to beat up animals!". Twist things much do we?

 

[Olgaline]

Oh come on, even you can't be so stupid to think i said anything remotely like that.

No wonder people get annoyed at what i say when they see some magical words that are never said. Most likely due to the stupid mentality of "if you don't agree, you're agsinst me!".

Lighten up, it was a joke

 

[old.Tohtori]

Lighten up, it was a joke

Fair enough if it was, kinda hard to differentiate these days.

 

[kiliarien]

So you changed a quote just to fit you? How smart. Hopefully people click the link and read the real post. I NEVER claim your opinion is wrong, i've actually said several times that you're very well entitled to it. Now my opinion on the other hand...well...look at some replies and you tell me, is it really ME who claims others have a wrogn opinion?

"In a way" i'm advocating no such thing as smaller jail times, stop putting words in my mouth. All i claimed is that 90 days is enough.

Never claime i was some "big man" either, just said that if you haven't spent one night, you don't know the feeling. So even if it's just one night, it gives more of an image(even if just by 0.01%) of being locked up for a long time then someone who hasn't even been that one night.

And about repeat offending, as i said, you can't judge all on the assumption of repeat offending, you HAVE TO judge everyone equally.

By the by; nice contradiction with "By that ideology, just the one night in jail is meant to seem terrifying? Don't get me wrong, I'm sure it is"

EDIT:

To give some perspective, all i said is "i think 90 days is enough" and "One night in jail might change the perspective on 90 days being a pisstake"

It's now been turned into "You're all wrong wankers!" and "I like to beat up animals!". Twist things much do we?

I said I fixed it. We all know that's a joke for changing quotes on this and other forums. Stop being so serious ffs. The point always stands that you fly into a thread and go against consensus for the 'discussion' which invariably turns into an argument. This is all just a jibe Toht for the fun of it, I opened with a pisstake and then tried to put points across (which I see you've mostly ignored/not responded to, which is rare because I know you have excellent discussive capabilities.)


Don't throw either of the quotes "You're all wrong wankers" and "I like to beat up animals" at me. I have not in any way suggested you said them. You need to get out of the 'Me vs. the world' on FH mindset, but the only way you will do so is to avoid flamebait stuff.

On topic: should have put 'terrifying' as it's a viewpoint. It was meant as an inferrance that those who commit crimes repeatedly aren't that terrified - you yourself seemed to abhorr the ordeal (and rightly so as a law abiding whatnot) but for those used to being there (reoffenders etc.) maybe it's really not that terrifying. I assumed you watched the video in full? I couldn't to begin with but since posting here I felt I should.

If you think that level of planned aggression, torture and sadism is only worth 90 days in jail, then I am truly worried for you.

What do you think about the animal cruelty hypocrisy? I thinks it exists in a lot of places. More outrage over animal cruelty than human cruelty at times.

 

[old.Tohtori]

I said I fixed it. We all kno*snip* flamebait stuff.

Actually did answer your points and it's not a consensus if people agree with me too. The edit was not aimed at you.

Will ignore the rest of that non-topic post as per your advice(to avoid flamebait).

On topic: should have put 'terrifying' as it's a viewpoint. It was meant as an inferrance that those who commit crimes repeatedly aren't that terrified - you yourself seemed to abhorr the ordeal (and rightly so as a law abiding whatnot) but for those used to being there (reoffenders etc.) maybe it's really not that terrifying. I assumed you watched the video in full? I couldn't to begin with but since posting here I felt I should.

If you think that level of planned aggression, torture and sadism is only worth 90 days in jail, then I am truly worried for you.

What do you think about the animal cruelty hypocrisy? I thinks it exists in a lot of places. More outrage over animal cruelty than human cruelty at times.

I did say that "outside reoffenders", so i don't disagree that reoffenders are used to it. Yes i watched it in full.

I do believe 90 days is worth it as the law declared it is, if it stops it, job done. If not, back to jail. Like i said before, you can't judge people on the notion that they WILL re-offend.

I don't think it's a case of hypocrisy, i think it's a remnant of tribal culture where you needed to defend your village. These days, there's not much to defend against so people start defending, if looked at logically, irrational things. People can choose to defend what they want, i'm not going to tell them not to even if i were to disagree(as you've seen from all of my posts, i very rarely say some thing shouldn't be done). More outrage over animals is silly though, it should atleaast be equal on the outrage meter.

 

[kiliarien]

I do believe 90 days is worth it as the law declared it is, if it stops it, job done. If not, back to jail. Like i said before, you can't judge people on the notion that they WILL re-offend.

I don't think it's a case of hypocrisy, i think it's a remnant of tribal culture where you needed to defend your village. These days, there's not much to defend against so people start defending, if looked at logically, irrational things. People can choose to defend what they want, i'm not going to tell them not to even if i were to disagree(as you've seen from all of my posts, i very rarely say some thing shouldn't be done). More outrage over animals is silly though, it should atleaast be equal on the outrage meter.

I see your point. The fact that people go out their way to produce these videos (and yes, it is disgusting) and yet tragedies in Darfur, Congo, Somalia etc go on and there's nowhere near the level of WTF?? that there should be. I suppose when it's closer to home it makes a difference emotive wise.

The problem is, as statistics show, most DO reoffend. You're right that judgement shouldn't be laid out based on past offences (which is why here juries aren't allowed to know past convictions) but there's a trend that needs to be addressed.

Still, in that video it was planned, sadistic and shows that the person needs mental help. To think he could be out of jail (if convicted) in such a short time turns my stomach.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Still, in that video it was planned, sadistic and shows that the person needs mental help. To think he could be out of jail (if convicted) in such a short time turns my stomach.

Take a different perspective on it for a moment;

The person grew up in a farm.
His father and all known friends are the same.
It's not at all in his teachings/life lessons that this is bad.

It's possible afterall.

Now he gets convicted, told that it IS bad and gets 90 days in correctional.

IF he is fixed by that 90 days, wouldn't it be enough?

 

[Thorwyn]

The person grew up in a farm.
His father and all known friends are the same.
It's not at all in his teachings/life lessons that this is bad.

The fact that you don´t know you´re commiting a crime doesn´t make it ok to do so.
Living in redneck-Bonksville is not an excuse for a complete lack of compassion for living beings (regardless whether it´s animals or humans).

Now he gets convicted, told that it IS bad and gets 90 days in correctional.

IF he is fixed by that 90 days, wouldn't it be enough?

Of course. That´s the point of a penalty.

However, if he was having fun torturing animals, it´s pretty unlikely that - after the 90 days in prison - he suddenly changes his mind and says "OH MY! I never thought that cows are suffering from pain too! Silly me... From now on, I´m going to treat animals with care and love."
A person with a sadistic tendencies doesn´t just "change", he needs psychological treatment.

Generally speaking:
It´s very hard to discuss the appropriate degree of penalty for stuff like that, simply because nobody is able to discuss it without emotions and polemics.