Ahahahahahaha.............. guess what I harvested yesterday

['Shy]

Looooooooool I was trying to grow cabbages for some free Selbina fame and what did I harvest??? A shit load of fire crystals. Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

 

[Astral\]

I blame your moogle.

 

['Shy]

Yes I think he hates me for making him hold all that useless crap

 

[Whisperess]

Please tell me how you define "free" when you get cabbages from gardening.

 

['Shy]

Umm, well I farm the seeds and I farm the crystals. I bought the pots ages ago and they've more than paid for themselves. So therefore they will be free when compared with buying them from a merchant. Common sense really :touch:

 

[Whisperess]

[QUOTE='Shy]Umm, well I farm the seeds and I farm the crystals. I bought the pots ages ago and they've more than paid for themselves. So therefore they will be free when compared with buying them from a merchant. Common sense really :touch:[/QUOTE]
*sigh*

Most common error that people do.

1. It's not free, you could've sold the seeds at AH, thus you're losing profit. You could also have sold the crystals at AH, thus again losing profit.

2. Now, add those two lost profits up, substract the cabbage cost when purchased from merchant. ( south san'doria comes to mind )

3. I think you'll find that you end up with less than 100% profit, which would imply once again that it's not "free".

 

[Sissyfoo]

Nobody likes a pedant.

 

[Whisperess]

Nobody likes a pedant.

Talking from first-hand experience I hear.


Case in point was that true enough, it might not matter in this particular case. And the fire crystals she get might make up for the cost completely, thus making them free.

However: I've seen the reasoning Shy used in far more expensive attempts, which people end up making less of a profit from the materials they gain than they would if they just sold the materials on AH - resulting in not only less cash, but also wasted time where gardening could reap in a profit.

That was my point, and if you have anything of significance to add to that, than by all means, do. If not, troll somewhere else, thanks.

 

['Shy]

*sigh*

Most common error that people do.

1. It's not free, you could've sold the seeds at AH, thus you're losing profit. You could also have sold the crystals at AH, thus again losing profit.

2. Now, add those two lost profits up, substract the cabbage cost when purchased from merchant. ( south san'doria comes to mind )

3. I think you'll find that you end up with less than 100% profit, which would imply once again that it's not "free".

Omfg what is your problem???? The cabbages would be free since I woudln't farm the seeds unless I intend to plant them and grow stuff with them. And ofc I sold the crystals, since I wanted cabbages

Stop being so fucking penickity.

 

[Whisperess]

[QUOTE='Shy]Omfg what is your problem???? The cabbages would be free since I woudln't farm the seeds unless I intend to plant them and grow stuff with them. And ofc I sold the crystals, since I wanted cabbages

Stop being so fucking penickity.[/QUOTE]
Just trying to help you, no need to shout

So, tell me. If you sold the seeds on AH, resulting in a profit that would let you purchase twice as many cabbages from merchants - which way would be preferable?

If you want to do it your way, fine - do that, it's your call. I'm just trying to help you, but I guess that shouting is the usual response from those who get upset when their reasoning is flawed.

 

['Shy]

No seriously, you're being a twat. I wouldn't farm seeds unless I was planting them. If I want to make money I'll go cut down trees or farm fire crystals. I enjoy experimenting with seeds and tree cuttings. It's why I made a webpage about it.

Was just a light hearted joke about the fact Solid tried for weeks to harvest fire crystals and ended up with a million unwanted cabbages. But I guess you wouldn't understand that... humour...

 

[Whisperess]

All I did was pointing out a common misconception of what's "free" and what is not. I did this since all the "get rich quick in FFXI" manuals that's floating around the internet are mostly all using this common misconception to present things as profitable. ( or as they like to call it; extremely profitable )

I don't give a flying rats arse if you like to grow things or not, that was beside the point - as for humour, well - inside jokes are not commonly conceived as humour for the masses.

Now calm down and think for a while.

It all boils down to what you consider your time is worth, and how much the fun-factor means anything to you. Are you having fun farming the seeds? If you are, consider them free. Are you having fun farming the crystals? Once again, if you are - consider them free. It's all in the purpose of your actions really.

I'm looking at it objectively - if you consider that being a twat well, that's your problem, not mine.


Edit: To prove my point, Eroa talks about making a better profit on the mithkabobs by hunting the meat by him/her self. This is ofcourse not true since he could sell the meat for the same money as if he/she had bought it off the AH instead, resulting in 0 net gain.

 

[ST^]

Now now ST, be nice

Now it's your turn

 

[Whisperess]

Ok ok

 

[Driwen]

I'm looking at it objectively - if you consider that being a twat well, that's your problem, not mine.


Edit: To prove my point, Eroa talks about making a better profit on the mithkabobs by hunting the meat by him/her self. This is ofcourse not true since he could sell the meat for the same money as if he/she had bought it off the AH instead, resulting in 0 net gain.

except that the cabbages are still free and that shhy didnt ask nor told people that this is a great way to get cabbages. It was a joke thread and basically you were being an ass(the sigh part and assuming that shy doesnt know that selling the crystals+seeds for money would result in more cabbages).
If shy had said that getting seeds+crystals to get cabbages is a good way to get cabbages than you have a point, but as shy never mentioned a recipe and is correct that it is free (as she hasnt spend any gil on anything) you do not.

And Eroa thing would be were someone did mention a recipe and did mention that it would be best way of earning money, which it might still be as you can get the meat sold easier this way possibly so making a loss on the mithkabobs is worth it as you can sell them faster resulting in more profit over time (as you have to wait less time till everything is sold and can get faster to making more mithkabobs(and farming the meat)).
Off course this does depends on alot of circumstances and it is good to point out to readers that making the mithkabobs on itself doesnt result in any profit (so for people who are offline alot it isnt a good choice as the meat will have sold anyway, same if the meat itself sells fast (and even on bazaars).

 

[Whisperess]

Once again, missing my point.

I did not in any way "attack" Shy, or her thread. I was just asking what the "free" part was in this case. It could very well have been that the crystals that sold at AH paid for all the crystals and seeds used - and in that case the cabbages would've been completely free - but that was never stated, was it?

And one could argue back and forth on this issue.

If you and Shy want to define "free" as "not spending money", then by all means, do so. And I do agree to a point.

However, there are other things spent, namely time in this case - and quite a lot of it too. I could walk the 100 km to Gothenburg instead of taking the train, and by your definition; that would be free. I would not agree.

My point is that stuff isn't "free" if you do not end up at a net total of at minimum 0.

In example: Buying Bat Wings at 100 gil per wing, and handing them in pair wise and get 200 gil as a reward, plus fame.

That fame is then "free" as the net total was 0 + fame. And no time worth mentioning spent farming the bat wings.

One could continue to argue that if I purchased a stack of bat wings for that price, and then sold them for a higher price at the AH I would gain profit, and since I could do that I can't argue that the fame is free.

Such an argument would once again be missing the point, and trying to twist words to fit a hollow argument.

It all boils down to what profit you're out to make. If you factor in fun etc, and don't mind spending the time to get the materials, then by all means go for the "not paying anything" as a definition of "free".

If you're out to get free fame, like was the case this time, then a net profit of 0 + fame is perfect for those needs.

However: ( and I will keep returning to this point, as it was my original point before people started to accuse me of attacking Shy and this thread, which I wasn't )

If you use materials in any way in order to make a profit in any form - ( in this case free fame as profit ) you have to look at the possible profits for the farming of materials and value those against the time spent before naming any profit.

Once again - I did not assume that Shy didn't know one thing or another, I just took a stab at the ( once again - in my opinion ) faulty definition of free.

I've seen people selling Mithkabobs for 170 gil a pop. Their argument was that they farmed the materials themselves and thus made a pure profit of 170 gil per mithkabob. ( yes, the Taru in this case didn't even factor in failed synthesis, which he did on numerous occasion ).

That was what my point was all about - it had nothing to do about Shy or this thread, so please stop using that as an argument.

If Shy got upset, well - then I'm sorry, that was never my intention - but neither of you were slow on attacking me before really comprehending what my point was, so your sleeves aren't really clean either.

 

['Shy]

My point is that there was no point to this thread, apart from telling peoples I wanted cabbages and got fire crystals, har har, funneh, no? And just to clarify, I spent NO money on seeds, NO money on crystals to feed the plant, so therefore whatever I grew was free! So shut up now, thanks!

 

['Shy]

- as for humour, well - inside jokes are not commonly conceived as humour for the masses.

Been thinking about this one for 3 days while I was away and just couldn't wait to get back and post a link to this... https://forums.freddyshouse.com/showthread.php?t=8969

So if you read this forum properly you'd realise it wasnt' an "inside joke" and in fact everyone laughed about it

 

['Shy]

Re opened upon request of ST.. continue the arguments if you wish

 

[Sissyfoo]

Kewl! I had a totally cutting argument for whatserface but I can't remember it now. I'll just have to settle with a good ol' fashioned 'WOTEVAH BITCH!'.

 

[Whisperess]

[QUOTE='Shy]Re opened upon request of ST.. continue the arguments if you wish [/QUOTE]
What's the point? If you haven't grasped them already there's really nothing I can do. There are many ways to define things, let's just leave it at that.

 

[Solid]

I agree with Whispress' point maybe not his delivery.

Always use market value of all materials used when calculating costs/profits etc, even in FFXI, this basic economic rule applies.

Just as an example:

Farm 10 Tree Cuttings
Farm 20 Light Crystals

Grow 10 Tree Cuttings feeding with 2 Light crystals each
Harvest....OOooops 200 Rock Salt!!!

Now how would you take that? 30gil a rock salt x 200 = 6K profit?


OR... 3K a cutting x10 (market Value) + 400gil a crystal x20 (market value) = 38K cost - 6K profit = 32 K LOSS!

I tend to look at it via the latter approach. Thing with FFXI is that everything can be taken back to a single unit which is time, and as they say, Time is Money!

Of course you can never really put a quantitative value on the fun and excitement had whilst doing the actual gardening and if it was fun the loss can often mean little in a real sense.

Just liek I planted 10 tree cuttings once and only got 20 plat nuggets I think I made a small loss doing the whole thing but I still had fun and don't regret it.

 

[Astral\]

Agree with Solid here.

 

[Driwen]

I agree with Whispress' point maybe not his delivery.

for one the thread was obviously meant as a joke, ofc you should be happy when you get fire crystals instead of cabbages
Now about the thing where the argument was about wether it was free, now the complete argument is about wether spending your time is spending money. Imo it isnt (atleast in a game), if your goal is to farm cash than there are faster ways to do it, but still you dont loose money by doing nothing or choosing a slow way of farming.

also the dictionary says that free means without charge (charge being a cost) as shy didnt pay anyone the cabbages are free.

 

['Shy]

[QUOTE='Shy] And just to clarify, I spent NO money on seeds, NO money on crystals to feed the plant, so therefore whatever I grew was free! [/QUOTE]

:touch:

 

[Whisperess]

Imo it isnt

And that's what it is, your opinion.

We all value 'fun' and 'free' differently - and sure enough, gardening/crafting can be fun - but if I spend time or money getting the materials, and end up without skillgain, more fame and or net profit, then I consider it a loss, not "free".

And that's my opinion.

Thanks Solid for providing another example, and using another approach to try and get my original point across

 

[Whisperess]

Just as an example:

Farm 10 Tree Cuttings
Farm 20 Light Crystals

Grow 10 Tree Cuttings feeding with 2 Light crystals each
Harvest....OOooops 200 Rock Salt!!!

Now how would you take that? 30gil a rock salt x 200 = 6K profit?


OR... 3K a cutting x10 (market Value) + 400gil a crystal x20 (market value) = 38K cost - 6K profit = 32 K LOSS!

This one is just for Shy, who insists on quoting herself.

You would see it as 6k profit, I would see it as 32k loss, comprende?

 

[ST^]

I could camp Juu Duzu for the hunters longbow. It could take me 3 hours, in which time I would have gained a bow that sells for 20k on my server.

I could then proceed to say hey hey! I got this bow for free!........

.................. but then, I could have spent those 3 hours in buburimu, bought the bow and have 10k more gil than I would have.

 

['Shy]

Btw, I'm talking 4 pots of herb seeds and 4 water crystals here. Hardly gonna break the bank is it?

 

[Whisperess]

[QUOTE='Shy]Btw, I'm talking 4 pots of herb seeds and 4 water crystals here. Hardly gonna break the bank is it? [/QUOTE]
Ofcourse not

We're not discussing that particular case btw, but rather different views on profit/loss/"free" etc