AFK Theurg brings more damage to a RvR tank group than a Merc !!!!!

[stinkie]

Right the standard tank grp is usually

1 mincer
1 sorc
2 clerics
1 pali
3 arms or mercs

This is suppose to be the ultimate tank group for albs from what Ive seen. Now heres the kicker. I did some math and the group will actually do MORE damage by dropping 1 arms/merc and taking a theurg even if the theurg doesn’t nuke once or run PBT !!

Anyway here’s the calc….

What u gain:

10 dps from EB x 4 chars ( mincer,pali,merc,arms) = 40 dps
19% Haste x 4 chars using 16.2(about average) = 12.3 dps

so a Total of 52.3 dps


What you lose:

Math based on a full DW rr5 thrust merc using backslash

base main hand damage = 16.5 dps
style growth rate is 0.88 = 14.5 dps
50+11+4DW so 57.5% chance to do an extra 16.2 dps = 9.3 DPS

So a Total of 40.3 dps


So a total gain of 12dps


I haven’t taken into account duelist reflex etc on the merc but I think the nuking, CC, PBT, pets. The theurg brings would more than make up for it.


So maybe its time for me to dust off stinkie and get to odins!

 

[belth]

Thrust, backslash, haste-effect, cloth, chain, etc?

 

[Belomar]

On the other hand, you're another soft target in a group which already has one soft target too many (the sorc). Having said that, bring on caster groups!

 

[stinkie]

Originally posted by belth
Thrust, backslash, haste-effect, cloth, chain, etc?

Thrust - Damage is is neutral to everything so as good as thrust imo.

backslash - I accounted for backslash growth rate.

haste effect - Must admit i missed that one but its not going to make up the 12 dps less the group would do.

cloth/chain. - you have to drop the tanks to drop then Damage add and haste bonuses and so its actauly an armour bonus when u take into account the pali full plate and any arms that happen to be in the group.

 

[-Wedge-]

I doubt this is right...

The damage output from a merc (no styles) is higher of that of a paladin... How does this return in your calculation...

I pretty much doubt that the actual damage outputted by a merc is 40dps, yet I'm pretty sure that the damage outputted by a an EB buff is close to 10dps... (actually not fully, as the calculation is done on the dps of the weaponspeed so swinging it faster will increase dps of eb slightly)

Because if this where 'true' then a paladin would have the same dps as a merc (laugh )

 

[stinkie]

Originally posted by Belomar
On the other hand, you're another soft target in a group which already has one soft target too many (the sorc). Having said that, bring on caster groups!

yeah but even if the theurg die's 1st it makes no difference at all to that calc's as EB and haste will still be in effect

 

[kenshee-himura]

Time for merc to go down : 10 sec
Time for theurg to go down : Ah u blinked u missed it

 

[skile]

Originally posted by kenshee-himura
Time for merc to go down : 10 sec
Time for theurg to go down : Ah u blinked u missed it

But the EB and Haste doesn't die off when the thurg dies?

 

[Belomar]

Btw, correct me if I am wrong, but I was under the impression that haste did not change your DPS, it only reduced your swing speed. In other words, with haste, you will swing faster but for less damage. Right?

 

[Tilda]

you could always run back to apk every 10 mins for a buffbot theurg and get the best of both worlds

 

[K0nah]

the age of necro and theurg bb's cant be far away ^^

theurg can still work well as long as he spams earth/air pets on support instead of trying to 200(-200) wtfpwn them into the ground one at a time...

i definately miss eb/haste when we dont have a theurg in grp thats for sure. when u realise that pally dmg-add stacks with eb u can be looking at upto an extra ~50dmg per hand, not to be sniffed at imo.

 

[-Wedge-]

Originally posted by Belomar
Btw, correct me if I am wrong, but I was under the impression that haste did not change your DPS, it only reduced your swing speed. In other words, with haste, you will swing faster but for less damage. Right?

Now I'm not sure if Haste works like Quickness... But if it does, then you will style for less damage... But... Your base-damage doesnt decrease... The style damage decrease causes the same style damage overtime... But... Because base-damage doesnt decrease, you do more damage over time...

Still a merc does more then 40Dps... I mean, a h2h savage does around 160Dps... (with some of his 'special' buffs activated, without still around 100 I think)

 

[old.Odysseus]

Originally posted by skile
But the EB and Haste doesn't die off when the thurg dies?

GRRR selfish git!!! have some compassion for the poor theurg will u!!

 

[old.[BF]MaD]

extra tank > dead theurg tho

1 caster (sorc) is guardable and healable
2 casters is not so good atm (vs high rr savage grps), no excuses

the extra tank will live longer then the theurg and thus provide more dmg then 2 tanks with eb would

as for u counting in the damage of pala & mincer added to the 2 mercs , thats not right either.

mincer is interrupting / mezzing / stunning / helping sorc
pala is running endchant / slamming / guarding sorc,healers

2x merc is not enuf to drop healers fast unless u get the jump and they dont get heals / instas

my 2 cents

 

[kenshee-himura]

Originally posted by skile
But the EB and Haste doesn't die off when the thurg dies?

Nah but the power + effort to rezz the theurg aint worth it

 

[Puppetmistress]

The added utility of a theurgist is bigger then another merc if he can live a bit longer then he does in general.

Pets, PBT, EB/haste, ASD (oh yeah, get those healers back in the insta-interrupt for teh win!), root, mezz.

Air pets on a healer = no MOC possible.

Also AoE interrupt is very powerful (spamming AoE mezz) on Hibs.

But playing the theurg means you gotta love dying.

Look at Pbuck on Albion in PE groups.

 

[gunner440]

Originally posted by Puppetmistress
Look at Pbuck on Albion in PE groups.

u have rr9 thane groups and almost non existant hibs on pryd tho



and i seriously doubt mid pryd is even 10% of the lvl of mid exc..

hibs are hibs they are great if they ever decide to leave ligen

 

[belth]

Originally posted by -Wedge-
Now I'm not sure if Haste works like Quickness... But if it does, then you will style for less damage... But... Your base-damage doesnt decrease... The style damage decrease causes the same style damage overtime... But... Because base-damage doesnt decrease, you do more damage over time...

Still a merc does more then 40Dps... I mean, a h2h savage does around 160Dps... (with some of his 'special' buffs activated, without still around 100 I think)

Had about 80 dps on my inf unbuffed against a SB ages ago, so I'm pretty sure mercs go past 100 with the same style (Dual Shadows).

This subject to memory failures etc ofc...

 

[Draylor]

Originally posted by Belomar
In other words, with haste, you will swing faster but for less damage. Right?

With haste youll hit faster, for same base damage but with reduced style bonuses.

Base damage is calculated from base speed of weapons, style bonuses from your actual swing speed (taking into account haste, quickness, MoArms, etc etc etc)

So yes

 

[kirennia]

starting to consider
Cabby
mincer
paladin
cleric
cleric
merc
merc
merc

 

[-Wedge-]

Kirennia, try :

Sorcerer
Spirit Cabby
Paladin
Mincer
Cleric
Cleric
Merc
Merc

Been playing around with that a bit lately... That group vs n00bs is total annihilation... That group vs high rr (mids/hibs) isnt that much worse... But you suffer the problem that casters well, have to run for their lives

You have AE-Mez, AE-Root, AE-Snare, AE-Disease, 2 pets to interrupt (one which will kick some serious butt), ranged damage (if the sorcerer + cabalist get to the point where they can start nuking, they will HURT), and melee damage...

The disease will make up for the loss of a tank...

Anyways, back to original thread, the calculation of this is flawed... Simply because the mercs do more damage then 40dps...

 

[ScarletPinp]

we dont want cloth! k!?

 

[AzuratMinimus]

Originally posted by gunner440
u have rr9 thane groups and almost non existant hibs on pryd tho



and i seriously doubt mid pryd is even 10% of the lvl of mid exc..

hibs are hibs they are great if they ever decide to leave ligen

Hm well if you think a rr9 thane is a gimp you prolly havn´t see divious playing. And it´s just over the weekends he runs with us basicly since he´s doing army service atm. And if that´s the only reason you can think of why PE should be having an easy jobb owning pryd, which they have been doing the last couple of weeks since they implemented theurgist, you should prolly keep your mouth shut.

 

[Lizia]

Originally posted by Belomar
Btw, correct me if I am wrong, but I was under the impression that haste did not change your DPS, it only reduced your swing speed. In other words, with haste, you will swing faster but for less damage. Right?

incorrect.

Speed Buff of Theurg does not change the speed of the weapon, and so keepds dps intact. So if you hit for 100 dam without speed in 3 sec, and with best theurg buff you still hit for 100 dam, but only in 2sec.

Only part that gets reduced by a speed buff are earth-buff efectiveness and pallie-dam-add chant. So your Weapon & Style dammage are unchanged, you just hit faster with the weapon.

Lizia

 

[Lizia]

US works with these groups:

Cleric (Revj)
Cleric (Revj 40/Smite 35)
Paladin
Theurgist (Earth 47/Ice 26)
Minstrel
3x Mercenary

The Theurg CC/Pets, Cleric CC and Minstrel Stun, are together enough on the CC/Interupt part. Purge and Determination do the rest of the work.

No need for a sorcerer, while a high dammage output remains.

Lizia

 

[Belomar]

Other people seem to contradict you, Lizia.

 

[Khalen]

What Stinkie actually is implying is that we should have theurg bots too now...

 

[old.Ramas]

Originally posted by Belomar
Btw, correct me if I am wrong, but I was under the impression that haste did not change your DPS, it only reduced your swing speed. In other words, with haste, you will swing faster but for less damage. Right?

In the context you mean it, haste increases the dps of your base damage, leaves the dps of your style damage unaffected, but reduces the frontloaded 'free swing' damage from the style damage component of your first swing. Base frontloaded free swing damage is not affected.

Base damage is calculated by base dps x base swing time. Style bonus is style dps x actual swing time.

Lizia is actually correct - but in a rather confused way which would probably imply things that aren't true if you don't already know the correct answer

 

[old.m0000]

Originally posted by Belomar
Btw, correct me if I am wrong, but I was under the impression that haste did not change your DPS, it only reduced your swing speed. In other words, with haste, you will swing faster but for less damage. Right?

base damage yes, but it reduces style bonus

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by stinkie
What you lose:

Math based on a full DW rr5 thrust merc using backslash

base main hand damage = 16.5 dps
style growth rate is 0.88 = 14.5 dps
50+11+4DW so 57.5% chance to do an extra 16.2 dps = 9.3 DPS

So a Total of 40.3 dps

Sorry, that's all just wrong. And if you stop to think for a second, do you really think a merc does an average of 40 damage per second on a target?

Here's something a 'little' closer:

(1 + (0.88*65*0.684/52))*(0.75*52)/0.684 = 99.9 dps mainhand with backslash (though I don't know how a thrust merc uses this style )

That number is assuming you do an average of 75% of potential damage on a target (this will vary depending on your buffs, the target's AF/armour type) and takes 218Qui (buffed highlander).

Then if he uses 2 equal-speed weapons with 60% DW rate, you can call it 134dps.

With a 20% haste effect from different-speed weapons that's close to 141dps.


(As I said, that's with 75% potential. If smacking cloth-wearers for close to cap, he'll be closer to 180dps)



So no. An afk theurg doesn't make up for another tank. He'd have to stay alive a long time nuking to come close.