Advanced PvP templates - long!

granny

Fledgling Freddie
Joined
Dec 23, 2003
Messages
253
Just read this post on the official forums and thought it was so good i'd reproduce it here. I'm in the process of taking my main character on Eclipse towards a PvP template of some kind and I'm slowly starting to appreciate the depth of the SWG system and how badly it is misunderstood by a lot of people.

If anyone here is seriously considering trying a lot of PvP I strongly recommend reading this post (original thread here btw) and a lot of the thread it is in. It is a very long post and will take a good few minutes to read and digest but I think it's worth it. This is the kind of explanation that is entirely missing from the SWG manual, website, anything official in fact. Complete failure to appreciate the concepts in this post is also what leads (imo) to the majority of the nerf calls on the official forums.

As everyone shuld know by now, this game is not based on Professions. It is Based on skillpoints. There is not really such a thing as dabbling, there is only varying skill levels.

Because of this, all it comes down to is commitment:

Due to the very nature of the system, you have the freedoms to desing your own specific Character Template, your own specific "Profession". To this, you were supplied with 250 Skillpoints. It is your own choice, how you develop.

You can get a pure Healer (Master Doctor/Master Combat Medic; and no i wont start a discussion here about the rule of the Combat Medic in PvP), a Pure Crafter (Master Weaponsmith/Master Armosrsmith/Master Droid Engineer), a Merchant/Crafter hybrid, a Ressource Mongerer, a Politician, a Hybrid, or a Complete Fighter.

All have variying abilities. Some are able to efficiently weld a Weapon and heal themselves, while Moving through Terrain in unmatched speed. Some are proficient Fighters, able to Buff themselves and Others and To resucitate people.Some are no fighters at all, and some are pure fighter. It is only a matter of how many skillpoints you are willing to commit to achieve a vertain ability.

Stripped down to PvP, this means you have a limited "Group" of Professions:

Healer/Artillery Support
Healer/Fighter
Scout/Figter (mobility)
Tracker/Fighter
HAT
HDT
Insurgency
There are more, if you go deeper into details, but this list will suffice for my post.

Now what is the difference? The difference is the amount of skillpints invested to achieve a certain effect. While a Healer/Figter may be a good duelist, he will be almost useless in large scale PvP.

Large Scale PvP is the resort of HATs, HDTs, Insurgency Troops and Healer/Artillery. All of these templates have strengths and weaknesses. Now if you encounter a HDT or a HAT as a Hybrid, as a "Jack-of-all-Trades", the you will lose and you will do so rightly. Why? Because your opponent invested a lot more skill points into beeing an effective fighter than you did.

Since the game didnt evlove much in the aspect of PvP, the players evolved it. PvP is the be all end all of SWG. With not enough content to keep hardcore gamers satisfied, it has become their resort and they invested more thought into it, streamlining their templates. Thus, the HDTs and the HATs were born.

The occassional PvPer will see them as "overpowered" or "God Templates" because he does not know how to counter them, but they are far from invincible. In Pve HDTs make excellent Tanks, able to tank even the highest level content, but without a good healer they are dead. They do not have healing abilities.

So, what is the Difference between a standard hybrid Fighter and a HDT or a HAT?

The standard Hybrid Fighter (experienced player) will have the ability to at least utilize Stim Bs. He will Have Mastered at Least one Elite Combat Profession. He will have terrain negotiation and maybe even Hunting. He has the ability to use camps and he may have the ability to drag an incapacitated Player. All in all a well rounded and pertty much self sufficient template. He will also do quite good in Duels and single Player PvP.

But once he faces a HDT, his time has come. He will most likely be unable to hit him very often (about 1 out of 15 tries), he will get under barrage by heavy combat spam. He will get delayed, bleeding, dizzy, knocked down, stunned, intimidated and Blinded. He will face the full fury of Status effects and his end will come inevitably. He simply has no chance to win against the HDT, aside from plain old luck!

The same Hybrid facing a HAT will encounter a simliar situation. He will get hammered by high dammage Specials in an incredibly fast speed, without a chance for rsistance (Eyeshot-spam once a second is a good excemple.

Now some of theose Hybrids go to the boards and complain, while others think about why they lost. Bút why is that Hybrid template doomed to fail? Why is that other Template he just faced so much better? Is it out of balance? Is it an exploit? Why is it better?

The answer lies in just one simple word: Commitment.

That other template was superior, becuase it devoted more of its available skillpoints (read: all) into pure combat effectivity. This created its very own special weaknesses in this Template. But what are those weaknesses?

We will have a closer look at that:

The HDT!What is its weakness?

At first glance it may sound like beeing a God! Almost impenetrable Ranged and Melee defense. Defenses in the 80+ range against all status effects. Some even way above 100. Devatstaing array of specials. Well at first Glance this may be correct, but nothing could be farther from the truth.

A HDT is created, by devoting all skillpoints into defense skills. Damage is of no emphasis. Defense comes before damage. This does not mean, a HDT lack s combat versatility, it just means it lacks right out firepower!

A good excemple for a HDT:

4004 TKA/Master Pistoleer/Master Fencer/0030Smuggler. All 250 Skillpoints used up. This is by far not the only HDT possible. If interest is here, i can freely lay out more HDTs, but this is mine and i will use it as basis for discussion in this post.

It completely lacks terrain negotiation. It cannot create camps (no speeder calling in the middle of nowhere), it lack Healing abilities (other than Meditation), it completely relies on other professions to support it in PvP. On its own, it can even efficiently spam specials without draining its HAM Pools too much.

But if it has so many obvious drawbacks, what is its purpose?

The answer is easy: It is a Tank and it is a shock troop. The appearance alone will draw fire. Whenever i appear ont he battlefield, opening up with Fanshot, i draw fire by 90% of the Attackers. This will give the rest of my team the time and the possibility to utilize their full firepower (that dwarfs mine by far, btw). I on the other hand am able to sustain a LOT of punishment before i go down. I evade most of the shots, wich not completely miss me in the first place. I will not deal much damage compared to the rest of my team, but i open up the ranks for them, to unleash MASSIVE punishment. And i bouthg myself the time, to get healed from the CM or Doctor.

But even to that high defense, there are even more weaknesses:

you cannot dodge/Block/counterattack DoT effects. If they miss they miss, if not, even a successfull dodge will place the DoT on you. Thus Bleeds and Burns become a factor against HDTs.
Poison and Disease cannot be avoided. Thus their application will devastate a HDT due to its lack to remove them from themselves (dont ague about meditation. Every new poison or diesease application, or every commando fo your Squad Leader, or every attack on you, even an AEattack will disrupt your meditation. It simply does not work in combat)


The HAT! What is it's weakness?

A HAT is made up for 2 reasons:

unleash massive punishment
defeat a HDT's defenses
And it does that with very high efficiency. A HAT is based solely on accuracy, speed and Damage.

A good excemple for a HAT:

Master Pistoleer/0040 BH/0010 Ranger

Again this is not the only Template but one the most well known ones.

As we can see, a HAT is the complete opposite of a HDT. It almost completely lacks defensive abilities (the excemple give is a rather defensible HAT, btw). The pistoleer has nice defensive Mods, but on their own they are rather unimporatnt. This just wont cut it.

But they have 3 things:

speed
accuracy
damage
To take a look at the numbers:

Pistol accuracy +155

Pistol speed: +129

That Thing WILL hit you once every second. And for no less damage. In addition to that it has the ability to efficiently utilize "Flame DoT" against a HDT (an ability the commando simply lacks, due to crappy accuracy) and target the Mind Pool.

Hit once by a Dizzy/KD will end their appearance, though, if not accompanied by a Squad Leader. And here we are, same as the HDT, back to beeing dependant on the team. On their own, a HAT may be a good dueller, but once hit by a Dizzy/KD they are toast.



As you could clearly see, neither the HAT, nor the HDT are invulnerable. They all have their very own specific weanesses.

BUT they are superior in Group PvP to a simple Hybrid Fighter. Why? Because they devoted more skillpoints into Combat.

Early in the beginnings, the phrase came up "Skillpoints mean nothing! Experience is what counst". Well, they also devote a hell of a lot more experience points into combat than a Hybrid Highter (we are talking about rounghly 18 million weapon xp for a HDT and about 6 million weapon xp for a HAT.

But since the HDT is more versatile in the overall game this discrepancy is only valid.



Ypu can always add more offense to a HDT, or more defense to a HAT, but this will lead to a less defensible HDT or a less punishing HAT. If you do that even further you will become a Hybrid Fighter.

There are mayn shades out there, when it comes to HDT or HAT and only few people really have a Pure HDT or HAT, but those are the ones that are perceived as "God Templaztes" because they either incapacitate their target before it gets the cance for resistance, or seem to not get whit regardless of what you do.

But this is the core mechanics of this game. Since it is skillpoint based and not Profession based, it simply come down to the point of "Who devoted the most skillpoints into combat will win in combat". This is not unfair, this is the system.

Many people asked for a Scissors/rock/paper system... Well, we basically have it. It just depends on how you intend your character to develop.

This does in o way mean you have to streamline your Character for PvP if you want to occassionally participate in PvP, but it means that you will now at least know WHY you lost in PvP: You had less commitment to it!

Again i am sorry for the length of this post, but i really think, peopole need to make up their mind about the system, then rather to complain on the boards of something they perceive "unfair" or "imbalanced" before they had a look at it. All those "God Templates" have a weakness the Hybrid does not have and from time to time, i even envy those Hybrids. I would like to be able to heal myself, but i am not willing to devote skillpoints to it. I am a figh´ter, i am a soldier! I am a good one on top of that, but i am no medic. My purpose is different and i fit into my role.

If my Squad Leader sees fit to send a medic to heal me, so be it, if not, i will go down in glory.

For all the hardship i endure for all the losses i took when it comes down to mobility or healing ability, i have my days.

And whenever my Groupmates just race up a steep hill that will take me 5 minutes or more to climb up, i just close my eyes and remember that day when i stood there, alone, all my comrades incapacitaed or poisoned, in need of a break and i stood at the gates of our emplacement, 24 enemies opening fire on me, blaster bolts seared past my head and the Horizon seemed to burst in Flames, as i was there, dodging and weaving, dancing the dance of battle, returning fire on all of them, barely hit, buying my comraes the time needed to get back up and in fighting conditon again........This is what i live for!

Dogg
 

pig

Fledgling Freddie
Joined
Dec 24, 2003
Messages
108
It is a very nice post... only with the new combat changes comming into effect, all the above will change :/ (again).

Also, the "god" templates involving the stacking defences will all change very soon. TH has posted that any skill mod should not be more than +100, and with BE clothing or tapes you can have a bonus total of +25 to that maximum. So the current TK/Pistoleer/fencer combo wont last much longer.

Im hoping the GCW will get better soon... i have even seen somthign about fire extinguishers may be a craftable item! WOOHOO no more burning wookiee fur!

Damn BH always set me on fire first hoping the flames will spread :p
 

granny

Fledgling Freddie
Joined
Dec 23, 2003
Messages
253
Aye you're right, it will all change a lot when they finally get round to doing the big combat pass soon, but I think the essential theory behind it will stay the same - there will always be specific types of template for specific roles.

I suppose one of the problems I've always had with SWG is that coming from a DAOC background (like a lot of people here) it's taken me a long time to get out of the class mentality... my natural inclination is to master professions and avoid dabbling... how wrong I've been :)

And you mean commandos not BH's setting you on fire yeah? ;)
 

pig

Fledgling Freddie
Joined
Dec 24, 2003
Messages
108
noo, its the BH... i think torso shot in the bounty pistol tree, dont last long but the wounds are the same :(

hehe, commando's didnt hit me much, if they didnt miss i dodged, or ran away :p

I would like to see more pure masters once this change goes into effect, the bonus for master should be much better and the lvl 3 mitigation should make more of a difference...

they just need to balance the defence mods...
 

pig

Fledgling Freddie
Joined
Dec 24, 2003
Messages
108
doh

what im trying to say is that the HAT/HDT should be specific professions, wihtout needing to dabble in so many different skills.
 

Uncle Sick

One of Freddy's beloved
Joined
Dec 23, 2003
Messages
792
Nice post - you can tell the guy put alot of thought into it.

But it's simply not for me. I love my hybrid char (Commando 0030/CH 3221/Scout4004/Medic1130) too much - soloing works a treat and so does grouping. Well, if you can find a non l117 player...

And I have my fair share of pvp kills - so 'ner'.

"grrr" about the fire extinguisher thing, though. :eek:
 

granny

Fledgling Freddie
Joined
Dec 23, 2003
Messages
253
pig said:
noo, its the BH... i think torso shot in the bounty pistol tree, dont last long but the wounds are the same

hehe, commando's didnt hit me much, if they didnt miss i dodged, or ran away

I would like to see more pure masters once this change goes into effect, the bonus for master should be much better and the lvl 3 mitigation should make more of a difference...

they just need to balance the defence mods...
Ahh that's a bleed not a burn, but yeah it's a wounding DoT, main difference is that bleeds can be stopped by a Doctor doing First Aid on ya, burns can only be stopped by jumping into a river Oo

Know what ya mean about commandos not hitting much, I was master commando for a bit and the accuracy was utter pants. Fun profession though, with CH for tanking it was a god in PvE :)

I think that defence mods are going to be capped in the combat revamp, possibly at 100 or 150 which will lessen the power of the HDT's a bit. I don't agree that it should be made so that masters get massive bonuses over non-masters - I like the fact that there's effectively a huge range of "classes" because you can dabble widely. What I think should happen though is that there needs to be more transparency to it. Annoys me when you see someone with "Novie Marksman" above their heads when you know full well they're a capped char with uber mods and a pve demon.

I think there needs to be a player con system of some kind - some way of getting an idea of how tough another player is. Maybe have two extra stats - Defence and Offence, which are determined by the number of skill points you have dedicated to offensive/defensive skills, maybe factor in a players weapon and armour, dunno. But these stats should be visible to other players and used as an indication of player level/ability. So when you examine that dude in the composite with a VK and "Novice Fencer" above his head you see that he has a Def of 137 but an Off of 482 you know he's a bad motherfucker who's gonna slap you down like a dog :p

Just a thought :)
 

Ebonn

Loyal Freddie
Joined
Dec 24, 2003
Messages
123
granny said:
I think there needs to be a player con system of some kind - some way of getting an idea of how tough another player is. Maybe have two extra stats - Defence and Offence, which are determined by the number of skill points you have dedicated to offensive/defensive skills, maybe factor in a players weapon and armour, dunno. But these stats should be visible to other players and used as an indication of player level/ability. So when you examine that dude in the composite with a VK and "Novice Fencer" above his head you see that he has a Def of 137 but an Off of 482 you know he's a bad motherfucker who's gonna slap you down like a dog :p

Just a thought :)
Personally i think thats a bad idea, the game is lacking in realism already, numbers next to players names saying how tough they are is a little far fetched and could be used as an easy griefing tool.

I do however get your point just didnt like that idea :)
 

pig

Fledgling Freddie
Joined
Dec 24, 2003
Messages
108
granny said:
Annoys me when you see someone with "Novie Marksman" above their heads when you know full well they're a capped char with uber mods and a pve demon.
This is why i like profession badges in the bio's, now you have at least an idea about what skills this character may have.

Also, if im standing guard at a PC faction base, its safe to assume that the red "novice chef" running towards me doesnt want to hand me a bacon butty!
 

rynnor

Rockhound
Moderator
Joined
Dec 26, 2003
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9,353
The funny thing is that the original guy who posted had a spec that was arguably hybrid rather than heavy defensive tank since a defensive tank only takes a line or two from pistoleer plus bits from pike/swordsman/fencer and all.

Still - he would get ranged mitigation 3 rather than 2 but his melee/ranged and effects defenses would be quite a bit lower - Pike has great defenses.
 

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