Account Scams still going on !

[Alan]

I got my passwords burned on double cds and stashed away.

I did get hacked once. I just have to thank some wonderful people for kitting me right back up so I could play Kemor for sorting the assholes (thought refusing to give me back my fucking items due to goa stupidity rules of gayness) and GOA for only being in SI patch so I wouldnt have to get some sicko drops for template. merely mp weapon and 99% armor from m8s

ohh ?

 

[IainC]

Thing is, GOA could easily see who logged on the account and to where the items were trasnferred to from the "hacked" account. Yet, they ignore this and let it slide, because someone kept their password in hotmail or something like that.

From my eyes that is total bull shit and BAD customer service. They should be ashamed of that and they should also report the characters involved in "hacking" someone skint.

Okay. This comes up every so often so I'll explain it again.

Firstly. You are responsible for the security of your account. The only way an account can be realistically 'hacked' is if you share your details (nearly every single 'scamming' we deal with involves a shared account) or have poor security in place - no firewall, no up-to-date spyware checker, no anti-virus, passwords stored in an easy to find unencrypted folder or in a webmail account with a weak password. All of that is your responsibility to deal with.
You are fully responsible for the actions taken by your account at all times. Even if you aren't playing it at the time. This has to be the case otherwise if you were caught cheating for example, saying your mate was playing your account for you would be a valid defence. We have to be consistent and so you are responsible for everything done by your account - good and bad.

We can see very easily every single trade on the server. We can find out where every single item went, who traded to whom and at what time. However because you are responsible for your account, if a trade is legitimate - i.e. both parties press accept on the secure trade window, then you have authorised that trade. It doesn't matter who was playing your account at the time. No-one at this point has stolen anything and so there's no return to be made.

A long time ago we used to take a different line. We did consider using an account without the owner's permission to be punishable and would ban - sometimes permanently - players who looted other people's accounts. However this was abused and so like many other, more customer-friendly policies it had to be changed. We had a series of very nasty incidents where people would give items to players they wanted to get banned, claim they'd been hacked and we'd believe them. The players who were guilty of nothing more than accepting a trade from someone who was apparently leaving the game and giving all their stuff away, got banned and the other guy got his stuff back.

After this happened on more than one occasion we decided that enough was enough. We took the line that you have to be responsible for everything that your account does - good stuff and bad and that meant that you were implicitly giving permission to anyone who used your account to treat your characters as their own. If you lend your account to a friend and he takes all your money and items, he hasn't stolen anything, you've given him permission to take them. If your friend is careless with your passwords then again you've given him permission to share your account around. In every case it comes back down to you and your responsibility to secure your own account.

Ultimately if you won't keep your account secure, it's not reasonable to expect other people to do it for you or to make poor security consequence free.

 

[Ckiller]

Okay. This comes up every so often so I'll explain it again.

Firstly. You are responsible for the security of your account. The only way an account can be realistically 'hacked' is if you share your details (nearly every single 'scamming' we deal with involves a shared account) or have poor security in place - no firewall, no up-to-date spyware checker, no anti-virus, passwords stored in an easy to find unencrypted folder or in a webmail account with a weak password. All of that is your responsibility to deal with.
You are fully responsible for the actions taken by your account at all times. Even if you aren't playing it at the time. This has to be the case otherwise if you were caught cheating for example, saying your mate was playing your account for you would be a valid defence. We have to be consistent and so you are responsible for everything done by your account - good and bad.

We can see very easily every single trade on the server. We can find out where every single item went, who traded to whom and at what time. However because you are responsible for your account, if a trade is legitimate - i.e. both parties press accept on the secure trade window, then you have authorised that trade. It doesn't matter who was playing your account at the time. No-one at this point has stolen anything and so there's no return to be made.

A long time ago we used to take a different line. We did consider using an account without the owner's permission to be punishable and would ban - sometimes permanently - players who looted other people's accounts. However this was abused and so like many other, more customer-friendly policies it had to be changed. We had a series of very nasty incidents where people would give items to players they wanted to get banned, claim they'd been hacked and we'd believe them. The players who were guilty of nothing more than accepting a trade from someone who was apparently leaving the game and giving all their stuff away, got banned and the other guy got his stuff back.

After this happened on more than one occasion we decided that enough was enough. We took the line that you have to be responsible for everything that your account does - good stuff and bad and that meant that you were implicitly giving permission to anyone who used your account to treat your characters as their own. If you lend your account to a friend and he takes all your money and items, he hasn't stolen anything, you've given him permission to take them. If your friend is careless with your passwords then again you've given him permission to share your account around. In every case it comes back down to you and your responsibility to secure your own account.

Ultimately if you won't keep your account secure, it's not reasonable to expect other people to do it for you or to make poor security consequence free.

If u were a bank u would have been out of buisness with such a policy

 

[Pertan]

If u were a bank u would have been out of buisness with such a policy

Good thing they arent.

 

[Dreamor]

While I do agree people need to take more care with passwords, one thing is confusing me...

We can see very easily every single trade on the server. We can find out where every single item went, who traded to whom and at what time. However because you are responsible for your account, if a trade is legitimate - i.e. both parties press accept on the secure trade window, then you have authorised that trade. It doesn't matter who was playing your account at the time. No-one at this point has stolen anything and so there's no return to be made.

If this was a bank account and you got 'hacked' - would the bank turn round and say "Hey, you clicked accept / send" - its your own fault...

... I think not...

I reckon you should go back to the old way of working, lets be honest... the player base is a little wiser now (there can't be that many 'new' users, only returning players) so it must be less likely to happen now...

 

[IainC]

If u were a bank u would have been out of buisness with such a policy

"Hi I gave my debit card and PIN to a friend and he spent all my money can I have it back please?"

Apart from that, banks and MMO providers are so different it's not even remotely valid to compare their operations.

 

[Dreamor]

"Hi I gave my debit card and PIN to a friend and he spent all my money can I have it back please?"

Apart from that, banks and MMO providers are so different it's not even remotely valid to compare their operations.

Your case is different, we are saying that if I was to get my account stolen in a malicious way, you would appear to do nothing... yet I have lost something... in that way banks and MMO Support companys do no differ... well other ones I have seen anyway (Sony NCSoft etc)

Also, banks, I find them so similar its almost strange banks don't try MMO support... could they be any worse?

 

[IainC]

While I do agree people need to take more care with passwords, one thing is confusing me...



If this was a bank account and you got 'hacked' - would the bank turn round and say "Hey, you clicked accept / send" - its your own fault...

... I think not...

You'll find that banks are pretty unsympathetic in circumstances where you have made your account insecure. If you get any recompense from them it'll be from an insurance policy and not usually from the bank itself unless the bank is at fault - has poor encryption or accidentally makes your bank details public.

I reckon you should go back to the old way of working, lets be honest... the player base is a little wiser now (there can't be that many 'new' users, only returning players) so it must be less likely to happen now...

It's inconsistent. We can't say that you're responsible for some things but not for others. If you tell us you were hacked we won't let you off for cheating but will believe you enough to give your items back. As I said, it was a string of icidents that led to the current policy. Once we realised that the policy was abusable to such a serious degree - accounts were wrongly terminated as a result - we had to change it as the only fair thing to do.

The number of new users has nothing to do with the issue.

 

[Dreamor]

You'll find that banks are pretty unsympathetic in circumstances where you have made your account insecure. If you get any recompense from them it'll be from an insurance policy and not usually from the bank itself unless the bank is at fault - has poor encryption or accidentally makes your bank details public.

Your not reading this right, take the fact that someone can give information out - if they do its there fault - I am saying that the other percentage of people, who have been 'caught out' are not going to be helped - which I feel is bad support... nothing else.

It's inconsistent. We can't say that you're responsible for some things but not for others. If you tell us you were hacked we won't let you off for cheating but will believe you enough to give your items back. As I said, it was a string of icidents that led to the current policy. Once we realised that the policy was abusable to such a serious degree - accounts were wrongly terminated as a result - we had to change it as the only fair thing to do.

The fact of the matter is, that if Requiel Hacks Dreamors account > Dreamor should be retored to its original condiation...

The number of new users has nothing to do with the issue.

How often have you sat and read through the user agreement? The only time you know something is in these agreements is when someone from support copys / pastes into the ticket you raise

EDIT - This is not an attack against you Requiel but more an opinion on the rules set by GOA... Sorry if it appears as an attack!

 

[IainC]

Your not reading this right, take the fact that someone can give information out - if they do its there fault - I am saying that the other percentage of people, who have been 'caught out' are not going to be helped - which I feel is bad support... nothing else.

Nearly every single 'hacking' report involves a shared account.
For the very small percentage that aren't as a result of account sharing, I stand by my previous comment. If you aren't going to take your account security seriously then it isn't reasonable to expect others to. We provide you with a strong password and a secure connection that is as difficult to decrypt as possible, you are responsible for the rest.

The fact of the matter is, that if Requiel Hacks Dreamors account > Dreamor should be retored to its original condiation...

It's still too abusable and people did abuse it. Forexample, I 'hack' your account using a trial account (all agreed with and assisted by you), trade the uber loot and plats I get from your account to friends who aren't in the scam or to a third account of yours that isn't immediately traceable to you. You then report it and support give your stuff back which means you've just got support to help you dupe loads of rare drops and plats. It's not fair for support to contact some innocent (or apparently innocent) player who legitimately bought an item and take it off him.

Do you play MMO's at all? how often have you sat and read through the user agreement? The only time you know something is in these agreements is when someone from support copys / pastes into the ticket you raise

I really don't see the relevance here. Whether people read the CoC or not they are still bound by it and we go as far as is reasonably possible to make sure that everyone who connects to the servers is aware of it and has a chance to read it before connecting, there's a reason it pops up after you log in and it's not just to annoy you, it's a legal requirement and by clicking 'accept' you are effectively signing a legally binding document to say you agree with the provisions of it. In any case I still don't see what reading or not reading the CoC has to do with people getting scammed.

 

[Corran]

I think Requiel is basically trying to say the following:

How can you prove the difference between a person giving out their account details and someone that got hacked?

You basically can not.


Scenerio 1) Someone hacks my email account/pc finds passwords and knows what they are for. Logs on and steals my items. I had never given out my details to anyone.

Goa state they can not give items back as accept was clicked on the trade... Harsh very harsh... but I could just be saying that I never shared my password, 95%+ the time what really happened would be scenerio 2

Scenerio 2) I give my password to a friend, then something happens and he decides to strip my account. He takes the items agrees to the trade and thats him owning my items.

GoA state they can not give items back because trade was accepted. It may be a little harsh but it is my own fault. I gave out my passwords and so authorised this (account sharing breach of CoC so i got no leg to stand on).


Now... how can GoA tell the difference between scenerio 1 and 2 ?? They cant really. Sure they may be able to see if logged in from different IP to normal but then what if you havent got static IP? what if you play from different locations etc? It wouldnt prove a thing. If you could prove yourself that you were hacked then maybe it be a start, but in all likelyhood you cant prove that yourself so how can you expect GoA too?

Oh and I do read the CoC for online games, always have done tbh

EDIT: Blah, damn you Req. You replied before i did.. thats what i get for actually doing some work

 

[Dreamor]

For the very small percentage that aren't as a result of account sharing, I stand by my previous comment. If you aren't going to take your account security seriously then it isn't reasonable to expect others to.

Thats what I mean, the 'small' amount of people are getting hit twice as hard... 1 for being hit in the first place and 2nd for not getting any support.

It's still too abusable and people did abuse it. Forexample, I 'hack' your account using a trial account (all agreed with and assisted by you), trade the uber loot and plats I get from your account to friends who aren't in the scam or to a third account of yours that isn't immediately traceable to you. You then report it and support give your stuff back which means you've just got support to help you dupe loads of rare drops and plats. It's not fair for support to contact some innocent (or apparently innocent) player who legitimately bought an item and take it off him.

Why not? if I go buy money on the US server via eBay surely it works in the same way... the items are against the CoC and hence are destroyed or returned to there original owners. Probably not explaining this correctly, but in my head (along with the voices ) it makes sence.

I really don't see the relevance here. Whether people read the CoC or not they are still bound by it and we go as far as is reasonably possible to make sure that everyone who connects to the servers is aware of it and has a chance to read it before connecting, there's a reason it pops up after you log in and it's not just to annoy you, it's a legal requirement and by clicking 'accept' you are effectively signing a legally binding document to say you agree with the provisions of it. In any case I still don't see what reading or not reading the CoC has to do with people getting scammed.

CoC is there to protect you (as a company) and to tell us (the customer) what we can and cannot do... by accepting it you must (surely) be saying that if I get hacked or similar along the line of playing... you are there to help me... not say "well QQ" or something

 

[Corran]

CoC is there to protect you (as a company) and to tell us (the customer) what we can and cannot do... by accepting it you must (surely) be saying that if I get hacked or similar along the line of playing... you are there to help me... not say "well QQ" or something

Prove you got hacked then!

Saying you got hacked doesnt mean you did. And everyone uses that excuse if something goes wrong "I was hacked, thats why i was caught with radar. Dont ban me" - "I was hacked, thats why my character was trading everything to someone else", "I was hacked - thats why i been a twat all my life"

Disclaimer: None this are in reference to anyone.


You will have a hard time proving you were hacked, it the same as the fact that you have to prove you did not purchase things on your credit card if it was stolen. Difference is it easier to prove that then to prove someone that also plays daoc (conveniant) hacked your account and took your items.

 

[Dreamor]

I do understand your side of it Corran, but I do feel its still a crappy deal is all... my 'puter is under lock

Proving you got hacked wouldn't be easy, but there must be a way to show something for it... hackers and the con-artists are usally doing this type of thing all the time, so they appear on the radar (ironic!) more often than not. These repeat offenders are the ones to get perma bans and lets be honest you or I are less likely to just say 'I got hacked' or something similar... and would hope for support and not be treated like someone crying wolf. I can understand that people always say it wasn't me or the like... but those are the ones that do give accounts to 'friends' so deserve to not get so much support.

 

[IainC]

Thats what I mean, the 'small' amount of people are getting hit twice as hard... 1 for being hit in the first place and 2nd for not getting any support.

No, you're getting hit once as a result of not following the advice we continually repeat in the Friday News as well as in the CoC about security. You don't lose anything extra as a result of not having things returned.

Why not? if I go buy money on the US server via eBay surely it works in the same way... the items are against the CoC and hence are destroyed or returned to there original owners. Probably not explaining this correctly, but in my head (along with the voices ) it makes sence.

If you buy plats on ebay, you are breaking the rules and can't expect to keep the money you got from breaking the rules. If you accept a trade from another player in good faith, you aren't breaking any rules.

CoC is there to protect you (as a company) and to tell us (the customer) what we can and cannot do... by accepting it you must (surely) be saying that if I get hacked or similar along the line of playing... you are there to help me... not say "well QQ" or something

This is what the CoC has to say about account security.

All users are responsible for their own actions in the game and on the site, and for any comments that they make there. Furthermore, GOA cannot be held responsible for any lack of protection on a user's computer.

The Terms and Conditions expand on this a little (note you have to agree to both the CoC and the Ts&Cs when you connect).

Once your Player Account is open, its use remains strictly personal (unless you have given authorisation to your underage child), and you are held fully and personally responsible, in particular regarding the duration of use of DAOC.

 

[Klonk]

While I do agree people need to take more care with passwords, one thing is confusing me...



If this was a bank account and you got 'hacked' - would the bank turn round and say "Hey, you clicked accept / send" - its your own fault...

... I think not...

Actually, they could. I've worked in a bank for some years now, and if you give away the PW to your internet bank (as alot of ppl do even tho it's not legit - example: husband gives wife his PW since he's too lazy to do it himself), no action would be taken (as is GOAs policy).

Ofc, there are lots of different aspects, both the bank and the customer could have to prove different things/the likeliness of different things, but basically, if you give away your PW, you're giving away what your PW is protecting as well, be it mail/DAoC chars, or cash.

 

[Lamp]

Agree 100% with Requiel. Her points are wholly correct. Users are entirely responsible for their own internet security and are individually culpable if any loss arises as a result from mismanagement of the logon / password.

When a player signs upto the game then he agrees to be bound by all the terms and conditions layed down by GOA. GOA have the right to take any such punitive action in respect of a players' account as in its absolute discretion it judges appropriate. Its really that simple. If anyone doesn't want to be bound by the rules, they dont have to. Go and play another game.

Word.

 

[Alan]

lol this thread makes me laugh so much.

If your account gets hacked - its YOUR fault, someone gained access to your password under your control, who else can you blame ?

 

[Bahumat]

Requiel is correct on what he/she says except 1 part im stuck on.

what happens if someone does somehow hack your account. Lets say you have a photographic memory and there is no written/electronic trace of your user details. you dont play in a lan cafe and the ip of the person who logged your account is in a completely different country.

in simple terms, if you are actually hacked do you get your stuff back? if not thats bullshit and you know it as well.

 

[Lamp]

GOA have an absolute right to do what they want in such cases. They can either believe the player has been genuinely hacked and give him back his stuff. Or they can decide that the player has not taken adequate preventative measure to safeguard his internet security, or provided sufficient evidence of his own dissassociation with the hackers, and, in either case, nerf his account.

If a wholly innocent person gets his account nerfed its really bad, but what ya gonna do ? Legally you're bound by the terms and conditions. GOA don't need a reason to cut your account. In a Mobius Strip, there are no loopholes.

 

[Fenderon]

still plenty of gmail invites left just PM me

 

[Alan]

GOA have an absolute right to do what they want in such cases. They can either believe the player has been genuinely hacked and give him back his stuff. Or they can decide that the player has not taken adequate preventative measure to safeguard his internet security, or provided sufficient evidence of his own dissassociation with the hackers, and, in either case, nerf his account.

If a wholly innocent person gets his account nerfed its really bad, but what ya gonna do ? Legally you're bound by the terms and conditions. GOA don't need a reason to cut your account. In a Mobius Strip, there are no loopholes.

The chances of someone guessing your logon name and password are impossible to guage

 

[Cemeterygates]

The chances of someone guessing your logon name and password are impossible to guage

ye....guessing it is just soooo unlikley its unreal but that key stroke thing can come into it. in some situations goa's reaction to it is unfair but its proving that you arent pulling a fast one an i can understand that goa do what they do but some people are really not at fault but its rare. would a anti-virus prog or spy ware prog find a key stroke thing? i cant remember what they called but it like see's everything you type...like pw's ect.

 

[Fenderon]

The chances of someone guessing your logon name and password are impossible to guage

I wrote alot of stuff here.. but decided not to post it as it might .. inspire some people to do evil

no need to guess logon names.


but thats not GOAs fault really..

security != userfriendly .. and their setup is pretty good.

 

[Morphius]

this one time at band camp....

 

[auroria]

i know vf's login name, and his pass is as i saw on his movie:
xxxxxxxx

 

[scorge]

Agree 100% with Requiel. Her points are wholly correct.

Requiel is correct on what he/she says except 1 part im stuck on.

requiel is a HE, unless his haggis has dropped...