A-Levels and Degrees

[ilaya]

ok.. year after year i hear the same old shit. better pass rates.. and then kids saying yay! i can now do a degree in trolling!! (or words to that effect)

what i mean is.. a degree that has fuck all to do with not a lot. Art history? only good if you wanna be in that field........

but.. no!! see a graduate is a graduate no matter what, unless its for a highly specialised job (doctor, lawyer, architect etc). look at the job adverts looking for non specific graduates... its all bollocks

I got a better system. When you finish GCSE's. you then say what you 3 jobs you want would be. an advisor then says what would be best courses to take at A-Level.. then you do those. (sounds like the dole jobsearch dont it? on purpose)

then if successful, you get put... not choose.. PUT on the fucking degree course that would lead to one of those jobs.


Stop fcking around students with your geography courses.. we have google earth now.

 

[Cerb]

Because the 3 jobs you pick are 3 jobs that 17 year old you want to do, and are most likely not the ones you will want to do in 5 years, let alone until you are 5.

 

[Job]

Too many people getting degrees, qualification becoming worthless.
It's like saying stunnjng models make good money, let's make everyone attractive.
Lefties wanted everyone to have the chance to go to uni, uni only works because it was for the exceptionally academic.
It's not rocket science, the lefty politicians just wanted to look good and ignore the the rather obvious gaping hole in the theory.

 

[Ormorof]

to be fair to universities though part of the reason they accept all these non-course students is so they can pay for their "big spenders", their IT and science departments (as they cost a fortune, require shit loads of space, but cant always take very many students)

media studies courses on the other hand are cheap to run and they can take several hundred students at a time all paying their £9000 a year tuition fee (same as the science students)

so if the unis were funded according to the quality of teaching available and the "real" subjects were given more money then there wouldnt be a need for bodies to sit in lectures on David Beckham Studies or whatever

and asking people to make a life choice and stick with it when they are 15-16? come on, only a tiny percentage of people know what they actually want to do when they "grow up", most have no clue what they want to do, you shouldnt do a degree because "it will get a better job at the end" you should do a degree because you are interested and have a passion for the subject, otherwise you will find your motivation flagging when the going gets tough...

 

[Killswitch]

I think the simple answer would be for someone (probably the Government, hopefully an independent body) to assess national skills requirements on a rolling 3-year basis and have relevant courses subsidized by others.

Let's say it's assessed that in the next 3 years we will need lots more civil engineers, biomedical scientists and (to be fair and balanced) Ancient Greek historians. People applying for those courses pay 50% of their tuition fees with the other 50% paid by a partnership of the government and the relevant private industries.

This give companies confidence that there will be a large pool of graduates to recruit from (which gives them confidence to invest in jobs and infrastructure in the UK) and an incentive to students to take subjects that will be of the most use to the British economy. As a side-benefit it will hopefully mean that people doing more "far out" degrees will be the people who are really motivated to do them and not just people out for a skive.

I can see a Tiering system working here as well, with courses being rated on a scale to decide the level of fees subsidy. It makes sense economically as well...if you believe someone taking an IT course at a good university has a high chance of getting a good job, repaying their student loan and paying more taxes, they are a lower risk to lend to. As such, why shouldn't they pay less than someone doing a Media Studies course at a rubbish university who is unlikely to ever earn enough to pay back their student loan or make significant tax contributions? Obviously this would be measured statistically, I have no grudge against Media Studies graduates!

Work in to this better protection for lower-income families to ensure that bright kids from poor households can get fully-subsidized course places, but only on courses that have a realistic chance of improving their life outcomes and benefiting the economy as a whole.

It seems so simple to me, it must be a bad idea otherwise we'd be doing it already (and it would have been brought up on Radio 4 by now!)

Of course, the elephant in the room is that our economy is circling the drain with no hope of recovery and everyone in University today will spend their lives either unemployed or farming gold in WoW for some Chinese oligarch for slave wages.

 

[Ch3tan]

How short sighted.

Your idea of an education system sounds like a shit country to live in.

 

[Killswitch]

How short sighted.

Your idea of an education system sounds like a shit country to live in.

Well, people doing degrees that would be classed as "lower tier" or whatever would be paying £9000 a year anyway. Why not make degrees that are more likely to benefit the country cheaper?

I'm not saying people doing degrees in David Beckham Studies or the History of Cross-Stitch should be disadvantaged in any way, just that people who do degrees that are believed to benefit the economy more should pay less. Thinking about it, it also gives the government a long-term way to help with things like green policy. If they subsidize relevant degrees, they can then go to large green-energy providers or "green tech" companies and say "look, we have a stream of talented people with relevant skills being trained in our country, come build your new office/factory/research center here".

I don't see how that would make anything "shit" or even how it's short-sighted. Since you offer such eloquent discussions to backup your points...

 

[Ch3tan]

OP killswitch, to be fair I haven't even read anyone else's posts.

I didn't know what I wanted to do at 17, pigeon-holing people is a bad idea, full stop.

 

[Killswitch]

OP killswitch, to be fair I haven't even read anyone else's posts.

I didn't know what I wanted to do at 17, pigeon-holing people is a bad idea, full stop.

lol fair enough! Here's me hoping for a huge forum battle as well!

I agree with you by the way, people don't know what they want to do. That doesn't stop them having to make a choice though and trying to "persuade" them to make the right choice for the country as a whole seems to be a laudable goal, provided it doesn't stop them from taking a different path if that's what they want.

 

[DaGaffer]

Degree subjects, unless you're going into a specialist profession, are kind of irrelevant. Its not the subject that employers look at, but;

a. simply the fact that a degree shows your ability to learn, and unlike A-level, have reasoned debate and analysis.
b. the institution you went to. It used to annoy the hell out of me, but unfortunately the quality of your university is a more important measure than ever because unlike A-levels, degree gradings aren't standardised in the UK.
c. work experience, e.g. if you did a four year course with a work placement, was it useful and relevant?
d. Post-grad qualifications. One way you can mitigate against "b" is to have an MSc or other post-grad qualification. The Batchelors herd is too big and you need to differentiate.

The idea of planning the right A-level/degree path for your future career at 16 is ludicrous; I'm a living demonstration of the difficulty with that idea, I had no idea what to do at 16, but knew I liked machinery and I could draw; I became a design draughtsman and it was the biggest waste of 7 years of my life I could have made, and I ended up going to Uni at 23 and doing something completely different. Its worked out fine for me in the end, but I definitely did it the hard way.

Oh, and in my experience careers advisors are a total waste of time.

 

[Killswitch]

Degree subjects, unless you're going into a specialist profession, are kind of irrelevant. Its not the subject that employers look at, but...

Not sure I agree completely with this. If nothing else, a good degree in a subject shows an interest in and aptitude for that subject. Yes someone with a Sociology degree might make an excellent Aerospace engineer but someone with a relevant engineering degree is probably still a better bet.

I have a degree in Software Engineering, but my first job and subsequent career have all been in Systems and Network Administration.

I think the point is more that some degrees are seen (rightly or wrongly) as having more value. I think my IT-related degree would have helped me get a job in pretty much any sector, but I don't think a Media Studies degree opens the same doors.

 

[Chilly]

Not sure I agree completely with this. If nothing else, a good degree in a subject shows an interest in and aptitude for that subject. Yes someone with a Sociology degree might make an excellent Aerospace engineer but someone with a relevant engineering degree is probably still a better bet.

I have a degree in Software Engineering, but my first job and subsequent career have all been in Systems and Network Administration.

I think the point is more that some degrees are seen (rightly or wrongly) as having more value. I think my IT-related degree would have helped me get a job in pretty much any sector, but I don't think a Media Studies degree opens the same doors.

Someone with a sociology degree will never become an aerospace engineer. No one in their right mind would spend the several years required to learn that stuff on their own.

 

[DaGaffer]

Not sure I agree completely with this. If nothing else, a good degree in a subject shows an interest in and aptitude for that subject. Yes someone with a Sociology degree might make an excellent Aerospace engineer but someone with a relevant engineering degree is probably still a better bet.

I have a degree in Software Engineering, but my first job and subsequent career have all been in Systems and Network Administration.

I think the point is more that some degrees are seen (rightly or wrongly) as having more value. I think my IT-related degree would have helped me get a job in pretty much any sector, but I don't think a Media Studies degree opens the same doors.

That's why I said, "unless you're going into a specialist profession", I'd include engineering in that. On the flipside of that, I know dozens of people with engineering degrees of one type or another, and barely any of them actually ended up in engineering after university (with one exception - who had been sponsored - only the ones who did post-grad stayed in engineering), most of them ended up in IT or managerial roles, and you could definitely argue that doing mechanical or electrical engineering to end up as an IT sales guy or business analyst is doing it the hard way as engineering courses are easily some of the hardest uni courses out there (its also why I didn't do an engineering degree; I have a HNC is mechanical & production engineering but I knew that if I had aspirations to be a manager or director, continued study of engineering was a waste of time).

 

[Mabs]

just bring in vocational schooling..

"no sorry, you really are just a bit thick, dont worry, no point doing A levels, why dont you go learn to be a builder instead, or lessons in operating a till"

no harm in it tbh, false hope for people is a waste of time and money :\

 

[Billargh]

Why shouldn't people be allowed to study what they want? I'm 21 and still have no idea what I want to do.

 

[Mabs]

Why shouldn't people be allowed to study what they want? I'm 21 and still have no idea what I want to do.

yes, but within the limits of your capabilities

if you have 4 GCSEs and no A levels, no point in a degree in Rocket Science

 

[Billargh]

yes, but within the limits of your capabilities

if you have 4 GCSEs and no A levels, no point in a degree in Rocket Science

Yeah no doubt, stick to what you're capable of. My point was more directed at ilaya anyway, if you're passionate about something, why shouldn't you be allowed to study it? Just to appease the people who think everyone should be doing 'real subjects'?

 

[Mabs]

well if 10,000 poeple want to study Cheese Making, there arent enough jobs to go round, so why not limit it to 7,500 or 5,000, or 50 or whatever ?

its not "fair" but its more practical sadly :/

 

[Ormorof]

it will also ensure wages remain high, just look at the bar exams for lawyers

we could have incredibly cheap cheese if they let 10,000 people study it!! (i doubt they would find that many!)

 

[Mabs]

exactly
sadly life is a cunt, and economics and other things > what u "want"

 

[Job]

My friends with degrees live in two camps,
1: Did well with economics/business degrees and live in 500 grand houses with two expensive cars and nice holidays, except it took them till 40 before they got this.
2:Still bumming around, with a pile of failed ideas and debts.

I got a job at 17, ditched college and started living, travelled world, got pissed and partied for 25 years, owned every freakin vehicle I could within salary range (no helicopters).
The one's who were 'successful' have fuck all to talk about, really they spent their whole lives building a career.
I know which way I prefer, but they still think I'm not as good as them because I don't have a degree, it's like some club and they don't value your opinions, even though I can banter the boring bastards under the table.
They know nothing outside of their boring expertise, the brother in law, clever, marketing degree I am always around there fixing everything in his house and enlightneing him on how the world works.

 

[GimmlyThe3rd]

I actually think degrees are a absolute waste of time and I advise people to get out of the UK and head towards Asia as soon as they can.

 

[Mabs]

My friends with degrees live in two camps,
1: Did well with economics/business degrees and live in 500 grand houses with two expensive cars and nice holidays, except it took them till 40 before they got this.
2:Still bumming around, with a pile of failed ideas and debts.

I got a job at 17, ditched college and started living, travelled world, got pissed and partied for 25 years, owned every freakin vehicle I could within salary range (no helicopters).
The one's who were 'successful' have fuck all to talk about, really they spent their whole lives building a career.
I know which way I prefer, but they still think I'm not as good as them because I don't have a degree, it's like some club and they don't value your opinions, even though I can banter the boring bastards under the table.
They know nothing outside of their boring expertise, the brother in law, clever, marketing degree I am always around there fixing everything in his house and enlightneing him on how the world works.

to quote baz luhrman, the race is long and in the end its only with yourself

 

[Lamp]

The thing that I find mildly funny are the people who come out with a degree in Dance then moan about not being able to get a job. Unless you're going into some performing arts / artistic field / drama teaching, its fecking useless if you want to get on the graduate programme for JP Morgan! Some bird on the radio had a performing arts degree and couldn't find work in the City. Some students really do have their head in the clouds. I'll do an easy degree, take a year off to "find myself", andl cruise into a 70K job. Wake up!

 

[Mabs]

The thing that I find mildly funny are the people who come out with a degree in Dance then moan about not being able to get a job. Unless you're going into some performing arts / artistic field / drama teaching, its fecking useless if you want to get on the graduate programme for JP Morgan! Some bird on the radio had a performing arts degree and couldn't find work in the City. Some students really do have their head in the clouds. I'll do an easy degree, take a year off to "find myself", andl cruise into a 70K job. Wake up!

in some instance "a" degree is better than nothing, its got fuck all to do with a job but it says "i can apply myself without supervision and get stuff done"

 

[throdgrain]

The thing that I find mildly funny are the people who come out with a degree in Dance then moan about not being able to get a job. Unless you're going into some performing arts / artistic field / drama teaching, its fecking useless if you want to get on the graduate programme for JP Morgan! Some bird on the radio had a performing arts degree and couldn't find work in the City. Some students really do have their head in the clouds. I'll do an easy degree, take a year off to "find myself", andl cruise into a 70K job. Wake up!

I'm with Lamp.

 

[Billargh]

well if 10,000 poeple want to study Cheese Making, there arent enough jobs to go round, so why not limit it to 7,500 or 5,000, or 50 or whatever ?

its not "fair" but its more practical sadly :/

True enough, but usually people are aware of the competition in a specific job area anyway, especially if you're doing a degree in that area, that doesn't stop them though.

 

[TdC]

Why shouldn't people be allowed to study what they want? I'm 21 and still have no idea what I want to do.

IMO hopefully you never will know. some of the most interesting people I've ever met have no idea what they want to be when they grow up. On of them is 63

HOWEVER, there is a difference between that and having a skill or knowledge set you can fall back on when times are hard. My dad always told me (back in the day) that if I didn't know what to do, I was to learn a trade ( because if I had that there would always be something I could fall back on).

After a rather patchy school career, I've finally pulled my finger out and am gunning for a bachelor in IT (and maybe the masters after that if I cba). I'm 36. Why IT? Because of two reasons: I already have work experience there, and I decided that getting the degree asap in a field I was already familiar with was worth more to me than learning something new. (ulterior motive: IT is a wide field and isn't going away any time soon; getting a degree will decouple me from the company I work for).

 

[GimmlyThe3rd]

I'm doing real estate in Thailand ...

3 - 4 years ago I was doing Network Engineering, 2 1/2 - 3 years ago I was doing Nutrition ... things change, one day you might see the light or probably not as most people are born followers not leaders.

I'd say Job is pretty spot on. A degree will get you there, but when you're 40 and lifes already over, you don't need a degree to make money.

 

[GimmlyThe3rd]

Hard work, some out of the box thinking and leaving ethics at the door usually gets you there one way or another.

No need for a degree but it does help if you can get one asap if not there is not much point.