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[leggy]

Originally posted by Wij
Trust me on this one please, I studied it for years

You have studied someone elses (or plural) perception of the issue.

Doesn't neccesarily make it the right perception.

 

[Testin da Cable]

Originally posted by old.D0LLySh33p
There is nothing wrong with being innocent TDC

oh, there's nothing wrong with being innocent per se, just as long as you have the occasional flash of insight that protects you from the not-so-innocent

 

[Testin da Cable]

Originally posted by nath
But they're part of his genetic programming. Anything he does is a result of that and the surrounds he was brought up in.

Same for all of us. (imo, of course)

ah, but Joe the Psycho has a problem doesn't he? he's insane. I'd argue that if one were genetically programmed to be insane the whole upbringing/environment thing would be moot because insanity was inevitable.

 

[Will]

Originally posted by xane
Noooo, not Daisyworld !

Hah, no mercy for you.

Daisyworld

Take a planet. The planet is being slowly heated by the sun, and slowly gets warmer, as real planets do.

Now on this planet, we have two species of daisy, and no other life. One daisy is black, one is white.

The daisies both have the same ideal temperature to live at, being identical apart from colour.

At the start of the planets daisy-loving existance, it is fairly cool, and the black daisies become more numerous. They trap more rays from the sun, and reflect away less of the heat. The white daises do not do as well, and are limited to the equator where things are warmer. The planet is mostly black-surfaced, and heats up faster.

By the time the planet is heated to the ideal daisy temperature, both species are equally numerous, and as it passes that point, the white daisies do better. They absorb less of the sun's energy, and push the black daisies up towards the poles. The plant is whiter, reflecting more of the suns rays, and warming is slowed.

Eventually, even the whiteness of the planet isn't enough, and the daisies all die, but (I can't be arsed doing an ascii graph) the temperature of the planet was brought to daisy temperature faster than a barren planet would have been, and held there longer, all because of the little daisies, and despite a total lack of daisy awareness. Models have been run (more scientific than even the excellent SimLife), with both these daisies, and and with numerous colours, and the results are always the same. An accidental self-regulating system.

 

[nath]

Originally posted by Testin da Cable
ah, but Joe the Psycho has a problem doesn't he? he's insane. I'd argue that if one were genetically programmed to be insane the whole upbringing/environment thing would be moot because insanity was inevitable.

Well yes, but everything that joescmo encounters in his life affects him and what he does. The fact that he's a psycho merely means it affects him in different ways it does to "sane" people.

Wij, I'm not talking about crime & punishment, that's simply what sparked off my thought process. My thoughts are that we as a species have often thought ourself superior to other species on the planet. We're somehow different, because we are self aware and have free will etc. I'm not entirely convince about this. What sets us apart from such basic organisms such as insects, hell even amoebas? Sure, we're infinitely more complex than them, but at the end of the day.. it's all about cause and effect really. Ignoring the uncertainty principal for a moment, if someone could stand outside of the system and look at planet earth/our universe.. with a big enough computer, perhaps the entire course of each and every one of our lives could be mapped out. If that were the case, then there's no free will.

 

[xane]

Originally posted by nath
My thoughts are that we as a species have often thought ourself superior to other species on the planet. We're somehow different, because we are self aware and have free will etc. I'm not entirely convince about this. What sets us apart from such basic organisms such as insects, hell even amoebas? Sure, we're infinitely more complex than them, but at the end of the day.. it's all about cause and effect really.

First, assuming that by "superior" you are taking from a standpoint outside human conciousness, otherwise everything considers itself superior.

Humans can reason. The thought processes that allow us to do this are way beyond what other animals experience and what sets us apart (whether that is "superior" is another matter, but it does offer unique advantages).

For example, if you have an electric fence with a little man-being-zapped sign, a cow unable to comprehend the sign will wander into it and get electrocuted, it knows not to wander into THAT fence again because of basic learning, but faced with a different fence or something with vaguely the same sign that is electrified, it will happily wander into it again.

Humans can relate the sign to the event in a much more complex manner, this is called reasoning and has far reaching benefits, something no other animal has achieved to even a degree of the same as a human.

The concepts of "self" and "responsiblity" are affected by the ability to reason.

 

[Wij]

Originally posted by nath
Wij, I'm not talking about crime & punishment, that's simply what sparked off my thought process. My thoughts are that we as a species have often thought ourself superior to other species on the planet. We're somehow different, because we are self aware and have free will etc. I'm not entirely convince about this. What sets us apart from such basic organisms such as insects, hell even amoebas? Sure, we're infinitely more complex than them, but at the end of the day.. it's all about cause and effect really. Ignoring the uncertainty principal for a moment, if someone could stand outside of the system and look at planet earth/our universe.. with a big enough computer, perhaps the entire course of each and every one of our lives could be mapped out. If that were the case, then there's no free will.

If that were the case then you cannot conclude there is no free will unless you define free will as being something that could not possibly be predicted. Why would you do such a thing. Just because you have all the information to hand to let you predict that 'John will light his fart when he sees Julie enter the room' does not make it any less John's decision. You just have a malformed concept of what free will is. Sure it's only a matter of definition and is strictly for the dictionary, not the philosopher. But by taking such a definition you have created the problem yourself. You've defined yourself into a corner. The decision was John's no matter what antecedant conditions made John the person he was. He has excercised free will by choosing to light his fart. Noone forced him to.

Once you realise the problem only occurs because of the way you define it it disappears

Oh, leggy. I've studied several people on the issue but I don't just follow their views. I've written my own essays on it as a student as well as restated the problem in formal logic notation when I was bored the other year

Philosophers these days really don't consider this an issue. My own reasoning concludes the same.

 

[Will]

Who took away our Wij?


*look of surprise*

 

[nath]

You're right, it falls down to the definition of free will. But if everything we ever do is ultimately predictable then what does that say about our existence?

 

[Testin da Cable]

this is the part of Wij's persona that paid attention at uni. the other 18 facets were sleeping, shagging or tripping at the time

 

[dysfunction]

Originally posted by xane
First, assuming that by "superior" you are taking from a standpoint outside human conciousness, otherwise everything considers itself superior.

Humans can reason. The thought processes that allow us to do this are way beyond what other animals experience and what sets us apart (whether that is "superior" is another matter, but it does offer unique advantages).

For example, if you have an electric fence with a little man-being-zapped sign, a cow unable to comprehend the sign will wander into it and get electrocuted, it knows not to wander into THAT fence again because of basic learning, but faced with a different fence or something with vaguely the same sign that is electrified, it will happily wander into it again.

Humans can relate the sign to the event in a much more complex manner, this is called reasoning and has far reaching benefits, something no other animal has achieved to even a degree of the same as a human.

The concepts of "self" and "responsiblity" are affected by the ability to reason.

I beg to differ...to a certain degree.

Dolphins have been known to be able to have a degree of reasoning. They also have a sense of self which means if they see themselves in a mirror they know it is them and not another dolphin.

 

[Testin da Cable]

Originally posted by nath
You're right, it falls down to the definition of free will. But if everything we ever do is ultimately predictable then what does that say about our existence?

there are many 'good' action possibilities that may be employed for any given set of circumstances and a plentitude of 'bad' and even more 'insane' ones. I'd say the only ones you can't predict are the insane ones, but what do I know?

 

[nath]

I think you can predict them all, but this is all far fetched stuff. Y'know, like if you knew the exact state of the universe, the moment it was created, and the direction everything was going etc. then you could predict everything, even what I had for breakfast this morning (hah trick question I didn't have breakfast this morning pwned!).

Of course, this is never possible. The uncertainty principle suggests that the more we know about the position of an object, the less we know about it's speed (or something like that). So we can never predict 100% accurately. The fact that we can't predict, doesn't mean that it's not predictable (in the sense that it was gunna happen a certain way all along).

 

[Wij]

Originally posted by nath
You're right, it falls down to the definition of free will. But if everything we ever do is ultimately predictable then what does that say about our existence?

You have two alternatives.

1.) Your actions are caused by predictable things. Prior circumstances and other such predictable fare.

2.) Your actions are caused by UNpredictable things. They are random.

Or, more likely, a combination of the two. Mostly (1.)

What does (2.) gain you ? Nothing. Let go of the need to have free will uncaused. Sure, at a sub-atomic level things are kinda random and chancy and every once in a while that probably effects your decisions, butterfly-efect style. So what. A random factor feels much less like ME than MY genetics and upbringing.

 

[nath]

Is there such a thing as randomness though? Is random not just another term for things that we(human beings) cannot predict at all?

Another way of describing my entire feelings on life/free will etc. Is that perhaps life is like a rollercoster that we ride facing the back. We can never see what's coming, only what has gone by. To us, the next thing that happens is uncertain but it's all there mapped out and ready to happen.

 

[xane]

Originally posted by dysfunction
I beg to differ...to a certain degree.

Dolphins have been known to be able to have a degree of reasoning. They also have a sense of self which means if they see themselves in a mirror they know it is them and not another dolphin.

Well, it IS by degrees, such that humans are way way way beyond where dolphins, or any other animal, has demonstrated.

Of course, the animal could have reasoned it would be better not to reveal its true ability to humans

 

[nath]

"So long and thanks for all the fish". Ungrateful tossers!

 

[Wij]

Originally posted by nath
Is there such a thing as randomness though? Is random not just another term for things that we(human beings) cannot predict at all?

If that is the case then it simply falls into category 1 rather than 2. It matters not for this argument since I've already covered both

 

[Lester]

I have pointed the Star Wars forums here to show them how we live...


By the way, regarding free will et al, none of you have it, for you are all automatons, players on MY stage, as it were. I am the only sentient being here, on earth, with feelings and a "soul".

This theory is one commonly held by psycopaths unfortunately.