1.59/1.60 for Sorcs. How will you spec?

[- Fedaykin -]

btw was on daoc.duskwave.com looking at Sorcerer rankings and... Veeshan is no more :0

Grymulv only sorc above 1 million rps :/

 

[Wou]

Gone say it again, I m matter/mind.

For pure nukage 50 body is better then 50 matter.
And for utility 50 body is better then 50 matter.
Your rigth in that.


But when you make combinations some things can compromise other things. Like AE mezz and AE root. For me personaly there where only a few times it was usefull, so I don't realy mis it.
With going from body/mind to matter/mind I became a lot better for a group.

Example when I was body: a tank is attacking an other tank, I nuke, tank switch target to a caster and caster runs. Now I have to wait till that landed, root, and wait till that caster is away. But if that root is broke, I have nothing left to help that caster ( they are normaly mezz imune).

Example when I m matter: tank is attacking an other tank, I snare DD, tank switch target to a caster and caster runs. Now I only have to keep nuking, and he can never catch the caster even if someone is constandly breacking the snare ( no imunity timer on snare).

You say you can assist with resist debuffs. Same goes with snare DD + str/con debuff, tanks will go slower so the other caster can get an extra spell in. For casters debuffs don't help so much, 2 nukers will get a caster killed a lot faster than counting on resists debuffs.

But before you say that I m a fire-and-froget guy, I die more while protecting group members then when I m solo and every thing is under my control.

Anyone can kill a badly played skald. Even me. Though I didn't use MoC...

I soloed 1vs1 : skalds, enchanter, mentalist, zekers, healers, bard,.. even a hero after he slammed me ( and he play very wel and tacticaly). So now happy? Just took that skalt as example for live tap.

 

[Apathy]

But when you make combinations some things can compromise other things. Like AE mezz and AE root. For me personaly there where only a few times it was usefull, so I don't realy mis it.
With going from body/mind to matter/mind I became a lot better for a group.

I disagree. When you went to matter/mind, you found a set of spells that was easier for you to use. And why wouldn't they be easier? There are less spells to choose from! There are less situations where you have to judge what to do and which spell to use! It's simple.

It doesn't help your group as much as it helps you.

Example when I was body: a tank is attacking an other tank, I nuke, tank switch target to a caster and caster runs. Now I have to wait till that landed, root, and wait till that caster is away. But if that root is broke, I have nothing left to help that caster ( they are normaly mezz imune).

Example when I m matter: tank is attacking an other tank, I snare DD, tank switch target to a caster and caster runs. Now I only have to keep nuking, and he can never catch the caster even if someone is constandly breacking the snare ( no imunity timer on snare).

You say you can assist with resist debuffs. Same goes with snare DD + str/con debuff, tanks will go slower so the other caster can get an extra spell in. For casters debuffs don't help so much, 2 nukers will get a caster killed a lot faster than counting on resists debuffs.

That's rubbish. Resist debuffs can DOUBLE the damage output of a cold/fire/matter using caster. Are you HONESTLY trying to argue that a snared/con-debuffed tank is a better thing to be fighting than a tank with stripped resists? Please...get realistic.

But before you say that I m a fire-and-froget guy, I die more while protecting group members then when I m solo and every thing is under my control.

I don't buy the "better off solo" line.

I soloed 1vs1 : skalds, enchanter, mentalist, zekers, healers, bard,.. even a hero after he slammed me ( and he play very wel and tacticaly).

Were these all done using a 14point 30min RA with no help from anyone else at all, whilst unbuffed and solo? What do you do when MoC is down? Hide in the nearest tree and count to 1800?

Now, given that you are a self-confessed "better off solo sorc who dies in groups all the time", please tell me exactly how you previously justified your statement of matter spec being more useful to a group than body spec? Because last I checked, keeling over and dying didn't turn the tide of many battles.

a.
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[Wou]

That's rubbish. Resist debuffs can DOUBLE the damage output of a cold/fire/matter using caster. Are you HONESTLY trying to argue that a snared/con-debuffed tank is a better thing to be fighting than a tank with stripped resists? Please...get realistic.

Goup vs group
2 sec (resist debuff time, capped casttime) * 8 (groupmembers) = 16 sec
16 sec (same time it take to debuff) / 2.5 sec (DD, with dex)= 6.4 = 6 casts
6 casts * 350 (body DD, after resists global taken) = 2100 damage = 1 - 2 dead

So I you rather face 8 debuffed people to one damage type after 16 sec than 6 - 7 people...

A little history lesson, in 1.51 Mythic changed all debuffs to insta becouse they wheren't time/result productive. In 1.52 they changed resist debuffs back becouse hib/mid could insta debuff there own base DD, and so did it more damage then spec DD. So now resists debuffs are back in the not time/result productive.

My snare affects every one that attacks my target.

Were these all done using a 14point 30min RA with no help from anyone else at all, whilst unbuffed and solo? What do you do when MoC is down? Hide in the nearest tree and count to 1800?

Rofl is that what you do when you see a hib/mid? Getting in a tree ( And die faling out of it).

I m one of the few who solo's without a buffbot so unbuffed, solo = alown, and I m fine thank you. And my RA's are nearly alway's up becouse I use them disiplined, by useing them only when nothing else can save me. Only used moc in max 5% of all my 1vs1.

Soloing is a combination of: knowing terain, experience, skill, knowing con's and pro's of char, know enemy classes.

Now, given that you are a self-confessed "better off solo sorc who dies in groups all the time", please tell me exactly how you previously justified your statement of matter spec being more useful to a group than body spec? Because last I checked, keeling over and dying didn't turn the tide of many battles.

Nice twisting my words.
In a group your depenant of other people, and if the people do stupid things, like figthing a fg mid next to a keep (even when I said 6X they had to move), then no spec will save you. Tbh I m most of my time in groups, but I rather go to Odin's soloing then /follow the zerg in Emain like most people do. I also don't die quick in a group, sertenly not, but a lot depents on your group.

Once you decide to go 46+ mind all you have to do is choose if you want body or matter. I chose matter because it adds an extra form of quasi-CC to my range of spells with the DD/snare. Matter resists are generally low too so compared to the 28 body nuke, it's not going to be much difference.

Hold on, hold on..
So you are saying you go matter/mind?

But tell me, what you will do after the mezz breaks, hope you don't tell snare DD.

 

[Apathy]

I'm not saying go anything. I simply disagree with your supposition that matter is more useful to a group than body. It simply is not.

Your timed examples are entirely stupid. Resist debuffing each person in the enemy group one by one is NOT productive. In a support capacity, the body sorc /assisting another nuker who uses cold/ice/matter as their main damage type is how it should be done.

I can see why you didn't fare well as a body sorc...

Like I said, it's a case of looking at the battle and seeing where you can do what for the best results. Seeing a fire wizard nuking something...it is FAR BETTER to fire debuff the target than to use a DD/snare. If you can't see that, then I'm sorry. You're lost.

You are supposing that a body sorc does the same as you, a hybrid matter/mind sorc, in a battle. That's now how it works.

Resist debuffs are incredbly useful in these times of high resists. Face it...they are much more useful than your 35% snare and weak DD. And I stick to my view that a body sorc is far more useful to a group than a matter sorc. Or at least nowhere near as bad as you try and make it seem with your messed up math and unrealistic examples.

When I go full 46mind/28matter, I will mezz. Any thing goes wrong there, I'll single target root. The DD snare will be a third option available to me after this. I'm not going that high in mind for the mezz, but also for the PoT and mezz reduction.

And, like I said, if I don't like the spec I will simply change to FULL body and be just as group-friendly as before. One spec I would never consider is a high matter. Taking matter when there are better options available is just silly. It is a personal choice, as far as I am concerned, when you can't spec above 30 in Body so the AoE root is not open to you but if you have the option to get above 30 Body then the benefits of that line FAR outweigh those of the matter line.

Fucking dex/qui debuffs...pffft.

a.
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[Wou]

I agree that every spec is viable.

But not that body is a suport spec what you make out of it.

And by example you use spells that are used once only a few time a month. Those spells are good yep, but are rarely used becouse they are hard to pull off, only make a big difference on hard targets (tanks) other die to fast, and if the main nuker is interrupted the spell is wasted ( last only 15 sec, left over from that cast/insta change).

There is a big difference between on paper and ingame.
Also ask body sorce why they are body. Asked a few before and they said so they could kill someone before they die.


Btw when I join a group I hear cool we have CC, and after a battle it is wow that mezz saved us, good mezzing. Never why didn't you debuffed them for me?

 

[Apathy]

Mezz isn't in matter or body spec though. I'm not talking about mezz. Try and stay focused, for fucks sake.

You said that matter gives "a bit of everything" to a group, compared to body which "not so much", which is blatant crap. So admit it. You are wrong. The resist debuffs, AoE root and DD of body FAR outweight the DoT, dd/snare dex debuff of matter in terms of group utility.

I think this all comes down to your seeming inability to use debuffs properly. I can picture you standing at the start of a fight, trying to put one debuff of each type on every enemy. ~rolls eyes~ It doesn't work like that.

I didn't say Body IS a support spec, only that it is a BETTER support spec that Matter by a long shot, if you have specced high enough in it. If you can't spec high in Body then you may as well go for Matter because it makes no difference anyway.

Whining that resist debuffs last only 15 seconds is silly since a caster with almost 0% resists will drop like a brick when being nuked. With crits, a target can be made VULNERABLE to nukes.

Also ask body sorce why they are body. Asked a few before and they said so they could kill someone before they die.

There are lots of people not using their spec to it's fullest. Not only sorcs.

Btw when I join a group I hear cool we have CC, and after a battle it is wow that mezz saved us, good mezzing. Never why didn't you debuffed them for me?

So...you initally specced Body so you could kill people before you died and then respecced to Matter because people weren't giving you enough praise? Awww. Bless.

a.
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[Wou]

Mezz isn't in matter or body spec though. I'm not talking about mezz. Try and stay focused, for fucks sake.
You said that matter gives "a bit of everything" to a group, compared to body which "not so much", which is blatant crap.

Reread I never said a thing about body/mind there. Only body, mind and matter/mind.

I think this all comes down to your seeming inability to use debuffs properly. I can picture you standing at the start of a fight, trying to put one debuff of each type on every enemy. ~rolls eyes~ It doesn't work like that.

Doh, I m not stupid. That math was to show you that in the whole figth you spend 16 sec debuffing, while at the same time you could have dealth a lot damage.

I didn't say Body IS a support spec

Body spec isn't just about nuking. It's a perfectly viable support spec too.

You did.

The resist debuffs, AoE root and DD of body FAR outweight the DoT, dd/snare dex debuff of matter in terms of group utility.

For full matter against full body you are rigth.

But not for matter/mind against body/mind.
Becouse AE mezz and AE root conflicts. AE root is only good in zergs and after GP. Else AE mezz will alway's be better and single root will do and group takes purgers out first.
So you only have resist debuff left against a snare in the utility department. And I use snare every battle while resist debuffs are used rarely.
In damage department I will do more damage in seiges and hard targets with dot's, while with body DD you do more damage in the open field.

So...you initally specced Body so you could kill people before you died and then respecced to Matter because people weren't giving you enough praise? Awww. Bless.

Lol no. I respecced becouse matter gave me more tools utility/damage who I neded. And honestly I only missed the AE root 2 times, in all the battles I did when matter/mind, single root/snare did all other times the trick.

 

[Aussie-]

for debuffing you both have to stay alive and nobody may attack one of the 2.
dunno how you sorcers are able to nuke. I have my hands full with rooting/unmezzing/mezzing/debuffing/amnesia
only time i'm nuking is when we are controlling the fight.

 

[Apathy]

I didn't say it IS a support spec, by which I would mean that is all it is. I said it can be used to give support. Support which is far superior to that given by the matter spec. If you would just try and pay attention, you'd know that this is all because you think matter is a better support spec, which it is not.

You don't spend 16s debuffing. You spend 2 or 4. The damage you could have done in that time is not important because the target will be LONG gone anyway.

And I AM right about body/mind being a better support spec than matter/mind. Simply because the spells of Body allow more damage to be done by your group overall than the ones in the Matter line. The additional AoE too is invaluable too.

At Keep takes/defences where people are using DoTs (I doubt your DoTs do THAT much.), a matter debuff will ensure that person takes a lot more damage for a few ticks. Using /assist on a matter cabalist or an earth wizard is going to go a long way towards making those DoTs do their job much better.

A matter sorc can simply hope that their DoT isn't cancelled by someone with a better one (Base Cabalist DoT overwrites base Sorcerer DoT if it does more damage, which it invariably does. Say goodbye to more than 50% of your contribution to the fight. Try snaring next time!).

Aussie, not every battle needs every tool to be used. Do you run into battle and panic about which buttons to press? Which QB to be on? Don't! I leave demezzing to the minstrels, use STR debuff on fleeing casters instead of nuking, make sure I am ready to CC-assist any of our own fleeing casters ("Oh look, Strondor running in circles again. Quickcast must be down...") and keeping my eye open for good times to use a debuff or two.

Amnesia is just too sweet. Use it on the charging bard when you see it start to cast and then get ready with your own mezz. Most times you don't even have to use QC on that mezz because half the approaching group isn't able to do anything. Mwahaha.

a.
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[Aussie-]

a sorcer has too many spells, i've changed 30 times in 2 weeks what to put on my main bar

unmez|ae amnesia|lifetap|sprint|purge|ae str/con debuff|ae root|s. mez|ae mez|qc
using this atm, wish i had more slots :'//////

 

[Aussie-]

btw, i wub my hp&af

 

[Qte Eth]

bind sprint on some key

 

[Spyf]

Originally posted by Aussie-
a sorcer has too many spells, i've changed 30 times in 2 weeks what to put on my main bar

unmez|ae amnesia|lifetap|???------>sprint<------???|purge|ae str/con debuff|ae root|s. mez|ae mez|qc
using this atm, wish i had more slots :'//////

1 more slot for you

 

[Wou]

"At Keep takes/defences where people are using DoTs (I doubt your DoTs do THAT much.), a matter debuff will ensure that person takes a lot more damage for a few ticks. Using /assist on a matter cabalist or an earth wizard is going to go a long way towards making those DoTs do their job much better.

A matter sorc can simply hope that their DoT isn't cancelled by someone with a better one (Base Cabalist DoT overwrites base Sorcerer DoT if it does more damage, which it invariably does. Say goodbye to more than 50% of your contribution to the fight. Try snaring next time!)."

Not even gone coment that, come back when you know more about dot's and los. Or may I test my dot's on you?

And still repeating the same.

____________________________

Aussie:

Sprint and single mezz can be removed, sprint can be on an other buton, and AE mezz will do.
Also make you main spells at the same spot on all the QB ( For me it is 1: snare DD, 2: QC, 3: AE mezz, 10: root), so you alway's know where those are and have acces to them.

For most battles:
Stay midle/behind in the group, to get your AE mezz in, run a bit forward, mezz, and directly run back behind. Else you are prime target.

After you did the mezz, see if someone purges, root him or nuke if he is being attacked.

Then see what your group needs, root/snare tanks chasing your casters, nuke the enemy caster that is attacking one of your group and put your pet on him (chain interupt), demezz.

If no one needs help, assist your tanks/casters with the killing.

But it take a lot experience before you exactly know what to do at what time.

 

[Bellona]

fuck purge... is so crap for a caster imo

the last.. like 10 times i have used, im dead 4-5 seconds later, thats a total waste of 10 points...

still dont know how i want to spec my sorc after 1.59... 41body/34mind atm... dont really know what else to do

 

[Aussie-]

with my 44 mind i have 400 radius, i dont wanna overmez my target, i specced mind so high to get a "72sec" mez

 

[Wou]

with my 44 mind i have 400 radius, i dont wanna overmez my target, i specced mind so much to get a "72sec" mez

You can't overmezz in RvR..

example mezz = 60 sec

PvE:
1st mezz = target is now mezzed for 60 sec
2nd mezz = target is now mezzed for 30 sec
3th mezz = target is now mezzed for 15 sec

RvR:
1st mezz = target is now mezzed for 60 sec
2nd mezz = won't stick mezz imunity, but don't change firtst mezz
3th mezz = won't stick mezz imunity, but don't change firtst mezz

So up side is that you can mezz a target as much times you want, down side is that a only 1 mezz sticks on a target. When your mezz breaks your target gets a 1 min mezz imunity timer, after that he can be mezzed again.


There is one eception, mezz of an other damage type will overwrite your mezz and give full mezz legth of the last one.

Example:

You mezz ( energy resist) a target with 60 sec.
Now the target is mezzed for 60 sec.

A theurg mezz ( spirit resist) the same target with 30 sec mezz
Now the target is mezzed for 30 sec.


So it can be good to tell your theurgs they have to mezz when they break free from your mezz.

_________________________________

Tbh purge is one of the best RA's and let me get a QC mezz in most of the time.

 

[Aussie-]

someone confirm this ^^
we'll i thought this because i see good hib bards use single mez too.

 

[Qte Eth]

its bs tbh

 

[hotrat]

Insta mezz and castable mezz are on different immunity timers.

Nice hits and af indeed, int is very low though raist has at least 270 buffed and around 1300 hits.
Can't wait till my inconnu sorc dings 50, could really use that power regen to help with levelling though. Also might help if i stopped playing my other alts curse those 4 new slots

Wish you could respec like once a realm rank or something, i mean its not like its gonna ruin the game is it? Sorc has many viable specs now but im still leaning towards 44 mind 31 body cus I need ae root to farm tanglers or rather to help caba's farm tanglers

 

[Aussie-]

maybe an avalonian has 20 more base

 

[Apathy]

They are nice stats. But not everyone has the benefit of a buffbot and foresight when starting a char.

I agree that Purge is almost useless and not worth 10 points. Glad I got rid of it now. Those 10 points got a few nice things that I much prefer now. Using Purge on a shield slam usually took me too long - as soon as I am standing still and styled, that's me half gone already. Purging mezz to demezz only happened about twice in four months because most other times a minstrel was taking care of it or I was the only one mezzed.

a.
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[Aussie-]

so overmez halfs mezduration or not.

 

[Apathy]

Originally posted by Aussie-
so overmez halfs mezduration or not.

Doesn't.

(OMG...n00b sorcerers. ~sigh~ As bad as Wildfire thinking amnesia breaks root.)

a.
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[Bellona]

lets disguss RAs for sorc instead
somehow i had a respec so i could get rid of CD, and purge (yes, no purge for me, tbh ill find it a waste in difference to the use i have of it)
but now i got alot of points to spend,,, but how

 

[m4rk]

Let's not turn this into a huge argument/slagging session. Everyone has their right to an opinion, truth is all specs are good for their own thing, I myself are going 44mind 30body, that way i get last ae mezz, 2nd best power regen, 2nd best group/self mezz resist. 30 body of course for ae root and the odd nuke here and there



Just a question though, is it worth taking body to 31 or putting the remaining few points in Matter?

 

[Wou]

As RR 5L7 I have 47 points to spend, I chose:

Toughness I: More hits never hurts.

Augmented Constitution I: A bit less hp, but cheaper then getting toughness II (for a caster, a tank will get probebly a lot more hp from thoughness).

Augmented Acuity III: Prerequest of a lot stuff ( like moc).

Long Wind I: Get this asp, with this you have a lot more chance you outrun a tank so your speed can kick in.

Avoidance of Magic II: Very usefull to survive, get aom I asp.

Wild Power I: Extra chance to crit is usefull, but isn't my first priority.

Wild Arcana I: Same as wp, is cool to crit debuffs or snares though

Mastery of the Art I: Faster casting us usefull, but didn't liked the cost/return when I had moa II ( also aug acuity III needed for it)

Mystic Crystal Lore: good to get power back at stand off's/seiges

Mastery of Concentration: This is like IP for tanks, but don't expect miricles from it like with IP. Is very nice when a damaged tank is on you, and interupting, but don't try to out tank a pure tank with it and livetab, you can do that on low weapen specced classes though. Also very usefull if you have to go through a mile gate when they gtae: run in range, moc, and mezz every thing you see ( mostly I die by doing this, but gives my group/realm a very big bonus to break through, and in a good group I will get a battle rez directly then).

Purge: I realy like it, is a wild cart I use in bad situations. Like got ambuched and mezzed/stune, then I purge and can QC mezz them so they will have a lot harder time to kill us. Also very usefull for dot's ( when you know for sure nothing else can save you), heavy str debuff, shield stun,..

----------------------------------------------------

In my ra's I gave most priority to survivel things, so I can do my work as mezzer with lesser risk to be lynched. A good sced armor does also a lot.

Just a question though, is it worth taking body to 31 or putting the remaining few points in Matter?

Won't make a big difference, body: reduses damage variance on your nuke ( base and spec), matter: reduses damage variance on your base dot ( spec dot won't do a thing becouse it will be resists most of the time).
NOTE: Matter does not make your shields better.

-------------------------------------------------------

someone confirm this ^^
we'll i thought this because i see good hib bards use single mez too.

Maybe you won't beleve this, but:

1) single bard: 43 Facinating Hymn 2.5 sec. 27P Enemy 70 sec.
single healer; 43 Greater Entrancement 2.5 sec. 27P Enemy 70 sec.
single sorc: 50 Superior Fascination 3 sec. 23P Enemy 80 sec
AE mezz: all 3 sec.

So bard/healer get faster single mezz then sorc.

2) Bards have only ONE CC type: mezz, so if they don't stop you with the best thing they have, can't hold you a secund time. Sorc got max 3 CC: mezz, root, snare: healer has max 4: mezz, stun, root, snare.

The not halve of mezz and then giving a 1 min immunity was done to prevent chain mezz/stun/root people. Tanks didn't liked that

 

[m4rk]

Cool thanks for the help Wou. Can't wait to get into RvR with it, any suggestions on good pets in Alb, Hib and Mid? I know not many Sorcerers use pets but in BGs i found pets can totally destroy other casters, after theyve used their quickcast they are buggered unless a tank is protecting them

 

[Adri]

with 1.59/1.60 youll be able to charm any type of pet you want
cant wait to charm those chryth ghost thingys or the giant trees in pennies

should be fun