1.56 Search and destroy HUNTER

[Falcon]

Sorry, just fail to see how 44 spec is less than 39 spec + 36 spec, not counting CD which is another 20 spec too.

The problem with a lot of tests on the IGN boards especially is that they're biased to what the creator wants to try and prove. Perhaps the ranger had Dodger 5, MoP 5 for example. The only real way to tell is in practical RvR vs many different opponents and I know I only just beat most hunters with my current spec, wouldn't be able to get away with much lower spec and be able to win. Some Hunters even beat me still with my current spec.

 

[erl]

Check this out:
http://www.grailbrotherhood.info/hntertlreport0602.htm

Although a bit old it sums things up.

 

[Falcon]

I've seen it before and whereas I agree ranger melee is more powerful, I think that test is very biased and full of a lot of mis-truths.

"The Ranger clearly gains at least a 32-34% bonus to damage by wielding an additional weapon in his left hand with just 1 point of Celtic Dual (compared to a Hunter's 10-15% gain to damage for using a 2H weapon)."

Clearly gains a 32 - 34% bonus to damage? Not a chance, take my spec with 24+3 celtic dual, in practice I'll double hit around 1 in 5 times usually taking into account misses, evades, whatever. Say I hit mainhand for 100dmg, my offhand will be around 80dmg. So over 5 hits, I hit for 500dmg and and 80dmg offhand. As you can see, that's a mere 16% damage increase. 32 - 34% is a vast over-exageration and only backs up what I say about bias tests to try and prove things. Branin focussed far too much on CD in this test and whereas I realise the importance of CD it's nothing like what he makes it out to be there - look at left axe, CD doesn't even come close to that.

What does sway a battle is our damage add, +20 unresistable damage each hand with sickles adds up slowly. The thing you also have to remember is say a hunter hits for 300dmg, he only needs 4 hits to kill a ranger, the problem in Ranger vs Hunter really lies in the randomness of being able to hit. If the ranger gets unlucky, evades no hits he'll be dead quite quickly. At the same time a ranger can evade quite a lot and whipe the floor with the hunter, against scouts it's even worse (sheild blocking the spear too).

The thing that remains to be seen is does the new hunter pet and damage increase in 1.56 make up for the low chance of hitting? The pet will add a to hit bonus if it's hitting the same target as the hunter but again, will it be enough to change the battle?

At the end of the day, if a hunter can hit a lot he'll win hands down, if not he'll get whiped - I certainly don't think it's the spear damage output that's the issue, maybe run some tests on a static object like a keep door or an Alb without evade to test comparitive damage over a set time period (Although, following the DPS system this _should_ eventually even out)

I kinda think hunters have been screwed with the 6% damage increase, faster spears or better chances of hitting would've been a more appropriate solution, hell maybe even left axe should've been opened up to hunters and given a 2.2x spec point set. Even now with 1.56 a Hunter could either get lucky, hit every time, kill a scout in 4 or 5 hits, or he could get unlucky, be blocked, evaded, every time and be whiped with only the pet doing any damage, either way, I know I'll be ensuring I'm hitting my 50% evade cap and possibly even considering using a sheild vs hunters when 1.56 hits (I already do sometimes vs 2h crush users if I get the chance)

 

[old.Sko]

Originally posted by old.Thiralith
when I was playing Rhodry I went to gorge, killed quite a few there and more 50's started to appear, one of them xest that directly seemed to know I was around, so jumped him, was pretty close fight, both of us had around 10% hp left, then first I got my dragonfang stun in and it seemed like I would win, but then he purged and took IP , too bad mine wasn't ready. Also he was circling like a bitch so 50% of my hits were unstyled ;(

Hmm, you must be talking some other Xest then, or he respecced last week. I recon he was not of problem when i jumped him in the past. Though must admit that when he truesights not much chance for me.

 

[old.Thiralith]

xest had high melee.. ts + ip + fa2 + purge, and as I said almost all hits were unstyled, and my instas weren't ready. This was hmm.. might be 2-3 weeks ago or so.

 

[erl]

Maybe some of the statements aren't entirely true as you point out. But the numbers and the raw log don't lie.

What does it matter that we hit for 300 damage, when we swing extremely slowly?

Why would faster spears help us? It would give you more opportunities to evade->diamondback, one of the most reasons it wouldn't help us. In fact, slower spears are better for a hunter against everything that evade/block/something alot.

Just a couple of pointers, we should make a new thread for this discussion really

 

[Falcon]

"Hmm, you must be talking some other Xest then, or he respecced last week. I recon he was not of problem when i jumped him in the past. Though must admit that when he truesights not much chance for me."

I haven't had True Sight for like 2 months... last time you jumped me 1 vs 1 was about 3months ago, I've only really seen you in zergs in emain since then, not seen you solo much. I always go for Infs/Scouts first when I see a zerg and I have actually shot you and slashed you to shreds a few times in large fights since I respecced Krolllka

Anyhow, you're welcome to come try your luck in a fair fight if you ever dare leave the safety of the zerg

 

[Falcon]

Jehanuum, I probably didn't put my point across too well, the reason I suggest faster spears is this. Rangers damage output per swing isn't very high, the only reason we can kill Infs/SBs is because we hit fast and get so many hits off that there's no way in hell they're gonna be able to evade every single one of them. Giving faster spears would mean you'd stand far more chance of landing some hits. Landing some hits is surely gonna be better than 6% increase to damage yet at the same time still not being able to hit under the current conditions?

If I use a slow hard weapon against anything that can evade well I wont win, It's a guaranteed loss for me.

Hope I put my point across better this time

 

[erl]

What you stated there is a very common misconception people have Falcon. I will take the hunter vs assassin case as an example. If the fight is gonig as usual it's the assassin who wins with a big margin, and the hunter's swings are evaded to maybe 50% (rough estimate). Say I'm using a slow spear that means maybe 4 swings are evaded. If I would have used a faster spear that would have ment 8 swings. To beat an assassin the hunter _has_ to get lucky with not being evaded too much. And it's much easier to be lucky on the case with a slow spear, then a fast spear.

Lets take it to the extreme case, I use a veeeery slow spear that only hit once during the fight, and then I use a spear that hits 1000 times during the fight, hitting for 1 damage if it hits. Say the assassin has an evade rate of 50%. The fight when I swing 1000 times he will evade about 50% of the hits because the sample is big and that is the way random numbers usually go, so I will hit for about 500 damage. If I swing only once he will either evade or I will hit. So I will hit for 1000 damage 50% of the fights, and 0 the other 50%. Hitting an assassin for 500 isn't going to do me any good becaus I'm dead then. But getting the chance to hit the assassin for more gives me a chance to win.

I'm very bad at trying to explain things but I hope this illustrates it a bit. The key is that, if the odds are in your favour, a fast weapon is good for you because it leaves less to be determined by "luck". If the odds are against you, a slower weapon is better because you have a higher chance to get lucky.

Some other good things about slow weapons are that it gives you more time to run through/around your opponent making him missing styles. If using a fast weapon you are more busy getting the styles of.

Also there's fewer chances for the enemy to get reactionary styles of (which is crucial against infs with DF and rangers/NSs with diamondback).

I hope you understand anything of this, as I said I'm not that good at explaining things, but I try

 

[Toran Ulfvenson]

Can you please seek&destroy Kreig I-am-"Fearless"-aslong-you-con-grey-green-to-me-or-have-less-than-30%-health-and-don't-mind-XP-deaths for me when you're done?

 

[old.Sko]

Originally posted by Falcon

I haven't had True Sight for like 2 months... last time you jumped me 1 vs 1 was about 3months ago, I've only really seen you in zergs in emain since then, not seen you solo much. I always go for Infs/Scouts first when I see a zerg and I have actually shot you and slashed you to shreds a few times in large fights since I respecced Krolllka

Anyhow, you're welcome to come try your luck in a fair fight if you ever dare leave the safety of the zerg

Well, i recon i jumped you about 2 weeks ago, before i went out alb/pry for a while - a fight where grymligast tried to gank me while i bashed you.(lol i used it as a shining example why CS damage needs upping - perfed for 276). And zerg is a really unsafe place for assasin - to many aoes going off as well as very high chances to be caught into aoe cc. Well, going to pay visit to gorge this evening, you're welcome to join the party.
PS. And indeed, try to solo me. I believe it would be hard for you without support of your mages, who seem to spam their stun button like mad

 

[froler-mid]

Originally posted by erl


The only ones stating this is assassins. No one else has ever said it. No devs/TLs etc. It's so .... ... stoopid?

well a assasin _should_ take out another class as any other class can gank anyone.


its not easy too gank a zerker. not at all, same with hero's. But it can be done with some skills OR even easier , buffs ^^

Originally posted by old.Thiralith
"with the IP nerf, infils WILL travel more in groups. and 2 infils > 1 infil with IP."

Heh wouldn't say so, only reason I took IP for Niar was because SB's had it, and since they lose it too I got nothing to worry about. Grouping aint the inf idea in my eyes anyways.

u are "grouped" even if u like it or not in emain/excal. the place is crawling with assasins

but yes, i took IP cause of SB's got it. know a couple infils without IP, they do just fine (they are buffed thou).

evade nerf? -cant call it a nerf before ive seen the calculation about 'evadeing'.

 

[ignore]

to Bloodied: nerf you, and whoever buffed you just now at amg odin's

 

[erl]

ignore: nerf that greycon minstrel who mezzed me so you could kill me What level was he? 10? hit me for 7 damage with his sword

 

[Blood]

Originally posted by ignore
to Bloodied: nerf you, and whoever buffed you just now at amg odin's

but you didnt die!

 

[ignore]

Originally posted by erl
ignore: nerf that greycon minstrel who mezzed me so you could kill me What level was he? 10? hit me for 7 damage with his sword

rofl aye he was lvl 24 laughed me silly when i did /who (minstrel), most likely the new thidranki coren
but you big meanie! you tried to kill him

Originally posted by old.Blood|Prydwen




but you didnt die!

What i had to use fa AND ignore skills
now i have to live in shame till i kill you

 

[erl]

you tried to kill him

Hehe, but of course, was the only thing I could do, afer all he was a big part of me dying there (otherwise we would have ran for eternity, or for the 250 seconds I had left 'til my speed spell was back up

 

[ignore]

nah was hoping you'd run into a tree again

 

[erl]

Originally posted by ignore
nah was hoping you'd run into a tree again

Ran into a wall today when running from two infils in df, I've learned to rotate the camera backwards, just need to learn to look forward now too